I was having a political conversation with a Turkish friend of mine who lives in the U.S. now. he's very Americanized, which may make sense as you read on...

We got on the topic of marriage (customs, laws, etc.) and then divorce, which stemmed from the adultery topic, as adultery was almost voted into law as a crime in Turkey recently. The EU had major problems with this, and he believes this pressure may be why (for the mostpart) it was shot down. Anyway...he told me that in Turkey, divorce is legal, but not common, which I knew. He then went on to explain that if a man petitions to divorce, and his wife refuses the divorce, there's nothing the man can do legally, and he's stuck being married to her. Both parties have to agree on the divorce unless there are grounds for divorce such as assault, etc. I found this very strange. Is this true? No wonder the divorce rate is so low! He has never been married and says he would prefer to marry in the U.S. because of Turkish divorce laws and being so Americanized at this point. He also said that few men get divorced because they know if they do, their wife will never remarry and so they stay married to not desert the wife, especially if children are involved (doesn't mean they are faithful - he did also say a lot of Turkish men have affairs with non-Turkish women).

In the U.S. it is common for men to stay married for the kids, but not because of fear the wife will be alone and not remarry. I can't imagine an American male carrying one bit about whether his ex-wife remarries! Furthermore, he said that there is no such thing as joint custody of children in Turkey, which I had heard before. Do men stay very involved in their kids' lives if they divorce? In the U.S., most men get the kids every other weekend and maybe one day a week and stay very involved with their kids.

Can anyone comment on the legal issues he claims or the culture surrounding this topic? It's veyry interesting.

I don't have any personal experience with divorce laws in Turkey but I do know it is somewhat more difficult and time consuming to get one. From what I have learned, there is no such thing as a "no fault" divorce in Turkey. If both parties don't agree to the divorce then the petitioning party must prove grounds for a divorce. Grounds for divorce are one of the following catagories (from
www.turkishlegalcenter.com):

1. Adultery, Maltreatment, threat to life, severe insult,
2. Committing a crime which degrades the integrity or the prestige of the other party
3. Deserting home: If one of the parties leaves home and does not return for at least 6 months without showing a valid reason and also does not respond to the Judge's warnings, the deserted spouse may open a court case for a divorce. The party who has forced his/her spouse to leave home or who prevents the return of the spouse without any valid reason is also considered to have deserted his/her home.
4. Mental illness: If one of the parties has a mental problem which is confirmed by an official medical committee report that it cannot be treated, a court case for a divorce can easily be opened.
5. Incompatibility: Though this is the widest area of grounds for opening divorce cases, the Defendant has the right to reject a court case if the Plaintiff is found to be more at fault. If the judge, however, decides that the right of rejection is being exploited and that there is no benefit for the Defendant and the children in maintaining the marriage, a decision for divorce can be made.

I don't know the Turkish laws pursae, however I have a friend who is Turkish who's parents got divorced. The wife divorced her husband and the husband objected to the divorce.

However, during their trial the son had to testify as to why he felt his mother should get a divorce and the judge ruled in favor of the wife.

His father has little to do with him or his brother & sister, however his father does contribute to the financial cost of the children, but very little.

I agree in the states most men don't stay married in fear of their ex-wife remarrying.

It seems that the person not wanting the divorce has a lot of power in Turkey. It appears if the party wanting the divorce really wants it, they would almost have to do something bad to their spouse to get them to agree, make life almost unbearablle for them. What kind of system is this? It's very interesting, to say the least.

On another related topic, can someone speak about the culture in raising children? I have read that the wife raises the child mostly. How involved are fathers when married? Do professional women (lawyers, doctors, administrators, whatever) who worked before they had children continue to work like they do in the U.S. or do they pretty much quit their profession and stay at home? Is daycare common there? I'm just so darn curious about this whole topic now!

Strickly speaking with reference to my family in Turkey, if you turn back the clock in the US about 30 or 40 years...that is where they are in the evolution of women in the workplace. There are a few but it is still uncommon for women with children to work. Although many of the women I know have gone to university (one is a physician) but still stay home after children. I can tell you that from observation that extended family usually stay with children in the mothers absence.

Let me compare two situations. It's very interesting. And no, none of these people are ME and don't involve ME whatsoever! I'm an outsider and this is not one of those "my friend" posts. haha

I have a friend here in the U.S. who has been married for about 15 years. He has been unhappy in his marriage for about 10 years or more - very unhappy. They sleep in separate bedrooms, don't get along...but he stays "for the kids." They have two children. He says as soon as the kids are out of the house, he'll divorce. They're almost teenagers now, so he has a good 8 years left in the house. He and his wife fight a lot but do try to be "one force" when parenting. He doesn't want to leave and be a part-time Dad. He's in his mid-40's, so a bit older at this stage.. He doesn't want his kids to lose their "home", all that stuff. He's pretty miserable. He does plan to divorce eventually. He has not had any affairs or anything like that (at least not that I know of). I guess they have an "arrangement" to just raise the kids. No sex life either. I've known him for a long time and can honestly say this is an accurate account of the situation.

Compare this to my friend who told me a story about his best friend in Turkey, Hakan. This story sounds like a soap opera. Here is what I know, that was relayed to me by my friend, and I think the story is a few years old, as I don't think they keep in touch as much anymore...

Everyone in this story is Turkish and lives in Turkey. His best friend, Hakan, married at age 30 to a woman his family arranged for him to meet, named Fatima. They knew each other a month and then married. Here's what my friend said happened...this is long...

Hakan said he didn't want to marry, but felt family pressure, due to his age, and just did it because he hadn't fallen in love anyway and felt obligated. Hakan and Fatima both come from very wealthy families, both very educated (she's a doctor, and I think he's an engineer), so this wasn't an arranged marriage of two young, uneducated people from a small villages being forced to marry. Neither are very religious. Hakan never loved Fatima, but did end up marrying her. Immediately he regretted the marriage. They were not compatible or something of that nature. He threatened divorce numerous times, Fatima begged him not to.


They spent most of their marriage apart. Hakan came to the U.S. to attend graduate school right after they married and Fatima stayed back in Turkey. This is how my friend met Hakan, at the beginning of his marriage. They went to the same school in New York. So Hakan and Fatima were apart most of their marriage (a couple of years) unless he went home to visit, which wasn't very often. Then he says Hakan met an American at school and fell deeply in love - a very quick and intense relationship. This happened in his graduating semester. My friend liked the American and approved of Hakan marrying her. However, Hakan was still married to Fatima, obviously. Hakan wanted an immediate divorce and my friend agreed with him. Hakan graduated and went back to Turkey to get a divorce. When he got there, Fatima told him she was pregnant (before Hakan could ask for a divorce). The story is, Fatima had apparently visited Hakan in the U.S. earlier that year, and was maybe 4-5 months pregnant or so when Hakan went back home (not totally sure). This was right before Hakan met the American. Fatima kept the pregnancy a secret until Hakan got home, and my friend says this is because Hakan had talked about divorce over the phone with her and had told her he never wanted kids with her because of their marriage not being good. Not sure if that's true or not. So once Hakan graduated and went home to Turkey, he stayed with Fatima. Fatima had the child a few months later. Meanwhile, Hakan told the American girl he would marry her, but it would take some time because of the situation. The American still wanted to marry him also. I guess he kept in touch with the American for several months. Once the baby was born, Hakan cut all contact with the American and also with my friend who told me this story. He literally disappeared over night. The American also graduated and ended up moving out of New York (don't know where) and Hakan does not know what happened to her, but said she was devastated. My friend and Hakan did get back in touch after about a year, but at that point, Hakan refused to discuss the situation about the American, saying he was unhappy but accepted his fate with Fatima. To this day they don't talk about it other than for Hakan to say he's very unhappy.

Fast forward a little bit...So Hakan now has a kid with this woman, is back in Turkey, still married, and miserable. Since Hakan has a kid, he won't leave his wife because she'll never remarry and he feels he can't. He has seen Hakan go through a huge depression over losing his "true love" - says Hakan's personality has changed a lot and he's a very deprssed and negative person. He is not the person he knew in college at all. I realize this is all coming from the man's point of view, but this is how it was told to me.

I think this situation is a lot of the reason why my friend is really reluctant to marry because of what he saw Hakan go through. And we are just friends, so again, no effect on me, just sharing this wild story. He told it very passionately and it seemed to upset him a great deal. He really cared a lot about Hakan and they were very close.

My point is...culturally speaking, I cannot see an American staying with a woman the way a Turk does. HUGE cultural difference!!! An American man would say screw it, get the divorce, and marry. He would also never marry someone he didn't love after a month to please his family. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing. I will ask my friend if he knows anything more about this situation.

Is education cheap in Turkey? Because here, you would spend $100,000 + on an education to become a doctor, and because of this, you'd still work after you had a child. You'd have to just to pay the loan! That's how much it costs to go to med school here. I wonder if the women physician you said stays home now had to fork out much money for her education? Wouldn't it be nice if our doctors could be educated without taking out huge loans? Also in the U.S., to just stop being a doctor, unless you had numerous children, would be odd.

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head!! But don't you think it's a sad existence? Being American, I do. I'm a romantic though.

By the way, my friend wanted to try to contact the American and to try and have her and Hakan talk. Remember, he is Turkish!! I told him I thought it was a bad idea. My friend has become very Americanized, obviously. He said it is so hurtfult to see Hakan living such an existence. I just told him that Hakan is not helpless, he's a grown man, and he chooses to be in his situation from what I see, and to just leave it alone. I think I was able to convince him this is a bad idea. He just said Hakan was so happy with her. But we all make choices in life and I think in this case it's best not to interfere. Imagine, ME telling the Turk this!! HAHAHA

Yes, I agree Elisabeth. Really it just makes me glad I am not any of these people in these horrible situations!!! I could not imagine!!!

My grand parents had an arranged marriage. I remember my grandmother telling me about her wedding day and how she was so worried that she would "please" her new husband and his mother. In those days, when you married, you went and lived in your husband's family home until you had children of your own. It seems alien to me, but I know they did it because their families were friends and they thought it would be a good idea to "join forces" so to speak. Lucky for them, they loved eachother very much but in those days, I think they just learned to love eachother. Love was not a romantic concept. Love was loyalty, furthering your families holdings and procreating to ensure your lineage continues. Once you did all that, you were in LOVE....

I should also add that although I do agree about family being everything to Turks, I was shocked at the education level of everyone involved in the story. I don't mean this in a demeaning way toward people who are not highly educated at ALL! Just that it sounded like a story of two young kids from a small village, probably religious families - not an educated female doctor and a man who had lived abroad and was a practicing engineer, both in their 30's, who aren't religious (both from Ankara, I believe). I wonder what the divorce statistics in Turkey are by education level, location, age, and number in household???Would be interesting to know.

Yes, a long time ago I could see that being the case. But in this day and age, I find it a little shocking. I'm obviously naive. haha

It definately saves you from the stress of dating!!

My friend says he will never marry until he meets "the one." He is too Americanized at this point. Luckily his family back in Turkey accepts this and they don't pressure him to marry. He also says he prefers not to marry a girl raised in Turkey because of how different they would be culturally, as he has been in the U.S. for some time. I thought that was kind of judgemental, but his friend's situation really affected him. He did date a girl from the UK for a while, but said she wasn't "the one."

He said Hakan dated a lot when he was younger, mostly European girls while in Turkey. Nobody the family would approve of him marrying though. I am going to call my friend and see if I can get more info out of him about this because now I'm intrigued!! ...hang tight.

Elisabeth, you are married to a Turk, right? See what he says about this stiuation. I'm very curious. What would he tell my friend to do about it? Stay out of it, I'm guessing! At least that's MY opinion!!! I'd love to have another person to back me up on that advice!!

Wow, what a mess! Not all Turks are in loveless marriages though. Even if arranged ones. But this sounds like a disaster.

Good point! Yes, Americans do also marry with restrictions in mind such as race, religion, or basically acceptance into the family.

As far as why Hakan went to America, what I recall from the story is that Fatima wanted to get married much sooner than Hakan did and she knew he was going to America for graduate school and accepted this, knowing they would be apart. I think she was a bit older in Turkish standards for not being married yet (she was close to Hakan's age, so probably close to 30 ). Maybe she felt pressure to marry quick because of her age, I don't know. This is how my friend described Hakan coming to the U.S. at least. I thought it was odd too. But I also know a lot of middle easterners who come here married and leave their wives behind for years (okay, Turkey isn't the middle east, but you get my point). Also, I think Fatima did not speak English and that was a big part of why she stayed in Turkey. I don't really know the details of this arrangement though. I'll ask my friend more about this. You have to remember, I only got a third-hand account from a guy's perspective of this situation that took place years ago.

My friend told me this story a while ago and then the divorce debate came up only yesterday (about laws, the EU), so I will see if he has any updates on the situation, including the American. You are right...the American probably moved on. I know I would!

That's 30..not 3 and a smiley face. Hate it when it does that!

Thanks, Trudy.

Another question to ask your friend, now that I find myself vested on this topic. Did your friend ever tell his wife about being in love with the American? I just wonder, if his wife knew that he didn't love her, would she remain married to him..

Interesting site on Turkish statistics...

http://www.turkstat.gov.tr/VeriBilgi.do

No, Hakan never told his wife about the American that I know of. I'll have to double check though. The wife, from what I was told, never wanted to divorce under any circumstances (partly why we discussed divorce law). Hakan would argue with her on the phone about it and from what my friend said, she would cry and beg for him not to divorce her. Makes me think that maybe she would stay in the marriage even if she knew, but I really have no idea. She was described to me as being extremely jealous and possessive. To the point Hakan, when first married (in Turkey), was not even permitted by her to go outside the house to see his own Uncle. She never wanted him to leave the house! There were a lot of arguments very early on I guess, which is what he meant when he said it was not a good match. She was described as very possessive. But who knows what the truth is?!?! Maybe that is why he stayed in the U.S. and didn't study in Turkey. I don't know. But I must say, a relationship breakdown is rarely any ONE person's fault.

Oh, and I think my friend said Fatima somewhat accused Hakan of some type of relationship with a girl he was in a class with at one time (not the American he fell in love with), which was completely false on all accounts according to my friend. It was all based on an email that Hakan and his female classmate shared about a class topic and nothing more. Any correspondence he had with females made her very jealous. This was some small incident when Fatima was in the U.S. (he witnessed some of it) so she was probably more exposed to his relations with females in the U.S. and got jealous easily. I need to ask my friend more because I am not certain I have all the facts right anymore. There were always fights about jealousy issues, that I do remember him saying. But again, that's his version. Who knows!

Oh, and one other thing I remember. He said that Hakan never told Fatima he loved her. That it didn't occur to him to say it. I guess another fight started when Fatima asked Hakan why he never said "I love you" and he didn't know what to say to her. He told my friend he didn't know what to say to her because it just never occurred to him to even mouth the words, because he didn't love her. So they would fight about him not showing her proper affection. Apparently that didn't include lack of sex. hahaha It sounds to me like she had a valid complaint. But again, if you're not in love, it's probably hard to say it. I think Fatima, despite whatever issues she has, deserves a husband who can love her properly. But hard to say the truth of the situation as an outsider. Maybe they are happy now that they have a child. Anything is possible.

Divorce is never easy or pleasant.

Even though it may seem to be easy....it is not.

Take a look here at some of the forms that have to be filled out. This is a link to Nolos legal books. They have books on how to do your own divorce in most states. This is only the one for California.

How to Do Your Own Divorce in California

I think women get half of a man's assets in California. Tough state to go through a divorce!!

I agree with your husband. The whole situation is so unfortunate, but it really is not anyone's business. I'm simply fascinated by the whole thing. I hope your husband's friend makes a good decision. Is the girl his friend is in love with Turkish also? How old are they? I hope he doesn't go down the same road as Hakan. Does the girl he is promised to marry know taht he is in love with someone else? Maybe she also has feelings for someone else and he doesn't know!? You just never know... hopefully they will communicate properly, whatever they decide.

Elisabeth, your husband didn't marry a Turkish woman because he obviously fell in love with you, right? What differences do you think he would say exist between how Turkish women are and how Americans or Brits are? Just curious... and was his family supportive of your marriage? If this is posted elsewhere I apologize.

That is really good to hear! Congrats to the both of you! It's always nice to hear a true love story. How long have you been married? Do you live in Turkey now?

What does dating Turkish girls entail? Is this sort of supervised dating or more Americanized dating? This is sooooo interesting!

Ahhh...okay!

I am now so anxious to find out more from my friend about this whole situation. I hope to see him tonight. I will post an update tomorrow if I get to talk with him about it.

Relationships are so interesting, aren't they?!

Something funny to share...all my dates were supervised by one of my older brothers until I was 19. HAHAHA...I remember if I went to a movie with a boy, one of my brothers would sit behind us. My friends used to tease me constantly and really I didn't have many dates in high school!

Awwwwwww... I think that's sweet! Probably a lot safer too!! But it would put a damper on your dates. hahaha

I just asked a similar question maybe 1 month ago and didn't get nearly the response. Anyway back to original post..."He then went on to explain that if a man petitions to divorce, and his wife refuses the divorce, there's nothing the man can do legally, and he's stuck being married to her. Both parties have to agree on the divorce unless there are grounds for divorce such as assault, etc. I found this very strange. Is this true? Yes, it seems to be true. If you want it done quickly you have to come up with a good reason. Being unhappy is not a good reason. There is also 'forced' marriage from what I understand. If a traditional daddy finds out or suspects a boyfriend has had sex with, or it even appears they have been intimate they can call the boyfriend's father and put on political pressure. Then the parents take over and decide they should get married (this is my understanding). So don't have sex with Turkish girls...especially if their fathers are involved in organized crime...ummm...I mean a tight knit family of businessmen.

It is really too bad anyone would want to "trap" another person into marriage. Seems to be just asking for disaster down the road. I don't doubt that this happens though, probably all over the world, including the US, just in different ways. For example, I know women in the US and UK who have gotten pregnant to trap a man into getting, or staying, married. It's really not so different than what you described the Turkish girl did - trying to achieve the same results. Personally, I wouldn't want anyone to be with me unless they wanted to be out of their heart. This type of situation usually ends badly anyway, or makes for a miserable existence.

I got a chance to talk to my friend last night about this whole situation. He was humored by our discussion here. I did get a little bit of info, but he didn't know much. He said that Hakan told him that he had emailed with the American girl this past summer, I think twice, but he said it was described to him as simply "pleasantries" and short. Hakan told him this when it happened, but did not elaborate, just mentioned it in passing. He doesn't know details (who initiated it, although he thinks Hakan did, or how they found each other) and thinks it is really nothing much at all other than Hakan relieving his conscience. He said that Hakan has expressed a lot of guilt and depression over her, so he thinks that may have been what it was about. He just listened and didn't say much - didn't want to upset Hakan. He says Hakan does not open up to him like he used to. He said if more is going on, he does not think Hakan would tell him, but he really doesn't think anything has happened to change the circumstances and that nothing in the future will change, because Hakan seems to have accepted his life as it is, despite his unhappiness. He didn't know anything about the American's current situation, because he didn't want to ask at the time. Hakan is still married and in Turkey, still unhappy in his marriage, but not a glaring unhappiness, more an acceptance that this is the life he chose and so be it. He does talk about his child, a girl who I think is 6 years old (the one thing he does talk about with pride and joy). That's all I know. OH..and I got the wife's name wrong. It is Fatma, not Fatima. They are living in Ankara I believe.

By the way, I did tell my friend that it was best to stay out of it, and he actually agreed. He said that despite his desires to help Hakan, he does know that. He tries to listen if Hakan wants, but doesn't ever bring it up in conversation. He is also a busy guy himself anyway!

If I ever find out anything new, I'll pass it along. I'm guessing nothing will change in this situation though.

Elisabeth, you said it is uncommon for women with children to work. What about when the child/children are old enough to go to school? Do they still stay home all day while their child is in school? How boring. Remember my American friend I told you about that is unhappily married? His wife has never really worked other than the odd part-time job at times. That is out of choice though, and very rare in the States.

Unless someone is a brain surgeon or astrophysicist, or other rediculously well-paying job. Homemaker is not a feasable "job" in the United States. It doesn't pay. This is too bad because kids are getting the bad end of this. No one to stay home and play with them and pay attention to them. This is not good for their little brains.

It's because we as a society want more material belongings just not the necessities to survive. Therefore, it takes both parents income.

I have friends who stay at home and live simplier lifestyles and they are very content. Does it make your children better? I don't believe this is the case. Yes, you can give your child more attention, however it doesn't predict how their going to turn out. Speaking as a child who's mother never worked..

I think a mother who stays home with her child is certainly doing a wonderful thing. My issue is only with women who stay home after the child is in school and gone for 8 hours a day. It just seems illogical to me to sit around all day, unless you are volunteering or doing something of that nature and your family does not need the money. Why study at university and then sit around all day while your child attends school? Again, I am referring to a situation where the child is not at home all day, not when the child is still young, at home, and needing care all day long. Certainly when the child is young, it is a very good thing to stay home. Better than having strangers raise your child!

I see both situations... Yes, a lot of people are hungry for "things" and so the woman works for that reason, sending her child to daycare so that she can support their need for material things. To me this is sad. Western cultures are known for wanting the best of everything. I personally think this is ridiculous. However, I also know many, many families where the man does not make enough money to support the family and the wife HAS to work. They do not live in large homes or drive fancy cars, it is simply survival. I knew one family where the husband and wife shared a one-bedroom apartment with their three children. They were both well-educated, but had to work simply to live! It's sad things are that way. I do get a bit sad and angry to see people living in half a million dollar houses and driving cars that cost more than a year's rent and sending their children off to daycare. Just my opinion. But for someone who is a doctor by profession and has put in many years of study, once their child is in school full-time, why not use some of that education to help the community? Even part-time..

Yes, I totally agree! So in Turkish society, do women stay home their entire lives, regardless of how old the child is???? Or just the first few years until the child enters school? I'm very curious about this. I'm talking about educated women who had careers prior to marriage. What is the norm in Turkey for a woman who is middle-class and educated? Anyone???

Why are we only talking about mom's staying home? Sometimes it makes sense for the dad to stay home if the mother outearns him. Just because we are the ones who have the baby doesn't mean we have to be the primary caretaker. Men can be nuturing and good parents too. They have gotten stereotyped as inept in the home, but this is not always the case. My fiance told me a story that when he was little (198 he was having problems because of the war and was scared to go to school so his father made his mother stop working and stay home with him more. This was a long time ago, but that is the only Turkish mother story I know. Cem's father is a distance trucker and would be gone for weeks at a time, so she was essentially a single parent dealing with two 'spirited' boys!

I do know a couple in the U.S. where the man quit his job because his wife made so much more money than he did. She was making well over $100K plus bonuses. He stayed home with the kids. He was not a lazy guy or unmotivated, they just did what made sense. They didn't want their kids growing up in daycare. He had a good career too, but made much less than her, so he gave it up to raise the kids. However, I cannot imagine this being the case in Turkey, because it's rare in the U.S. too. Their friends weren't all supportive, so there are stereotypes in the west as well.

I was asking about women staying home because of the original thread...a wife who is a trained doctor and is now home raising one child. It made me curious about the role of women. So the question asked was... do women stay home their entire lives after having a child or do they go back to work when the child enters school? As far as men staying home, I don't have negative thoughts on this at all, but I really doubt it happens much in Turkey.

I wonder if most of the women in the US know how to make their own lace...how many wash clothes by hand? or make homemade bread? how many have a dish washer? how many have farms that need tending? I watched in amazement as my mother in law (all of her five children are grown)got up at dawn, made fresh bread, went and picked vegetables for the day from the farm, cooked, made breakfast, lunch and dinner for 8 people, washed clothes by hand, picked up a large carpet, dragged it outside and beat it to make sure it was cleaned...after she vacuumed it. I followed her for a full week and in the afternoons we rested before dinner with tea and talked with some neighbors. Even when my mother in law was relaxing, her hands were busy making the finest lace I have ever seen. Once in a while she would look up at my "lace" to see if I was making progress. My point is, the role of a "housewife" is much different than that of a "housewife" here. Women work very hard in Turkey and take pride in a clean home, good food and happy children (whether grown or not). I don't think they are ever bored, whether the children are home or not.

I completely respect the roles these women have if they are doing all of that work. TOTALLY respect it! It's amazing really. That woman has my vote for Mother of the Year, definitely!!!!!!!!! I did not mean to offend you or to imply that Turkish women all sit on their butts and provide nothing substantial to the family. I know that is not the case. I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't talking about a woman who is raising multiple children and works on a farm or does manual labor and is busy with much needed family tasks all day long. The situation you described is certainly one to be valued and admired. I was talking about a city-dwelling, financially well-off, educated doctor who does not have those responsiblities in any way, shape, or form. Your point is respected and well taken. I am just wondering what a woman not in the position to have all that work does all day long. Certainly if a woman has needed duties at home, that is very admirable. The woman I am speaking of is not even remotely related to the situation you describe, so out of curiousity, I wondered if it is normal for someone NOT in a situation like you described would stay home while a child is in school. I apologize if my post seemed in any way judgmental toward anyone. I did not mean it that way at all. I'm simply trying to get a reply to the questino that I raised as it was written. I also want to thank you for sharing your view because I think it is important and educates us all on Turkish life.

By the way, I should add that anyone who is financially well-off and living in a city does have the modern conveniences of life. They have dishwashers, washers, dryers, all of those. If they didn't, yes, of course there would be a lot to do in the home. I am speaking about a modern family situation in a city. As far as lace...that's a lovely thing to make. I'm sure it is beautiful!!! Most American women knit or sew or have some hobby similar to this. I work with a woman who makes quilts from hand...she does this after she gets off of work. But she is older and her children are grown.

God bless that lady for doing all that manual labor. Wow!!! Sounds like the life my mother led back in the 50's. She has some amazing stories. Strong women!!!!

I think many times, due to daycare costs, it is more economical for many families if one person stays home. Who knows how they keep busy...depends on the hobbies, culture, etc. I would personally get very bored, but for some maybe this would be enjoyable. All in who you are!

I know daycare is about 250 per week here for a good one. It is staggering to think of daycare costing 1000 per month. That is more than my mortgage!!

Yes, there is a middle class in America. What other term would you prefer I use that is PC enough for you? Get over it!

I sometimes feel like everyone in here as ADHD...inability to stick to a subject. Why not just call every thread Dudu? I'd like to know about a hotel, but please, hijack my thread and start to talk about Dudu. I'd like to know about language, but please, don't forget to mention Dudu again and post at least 10 things about it under a thread that is completely unrelated. Sorry, but it's really a bit ridiculous. OH, but I'm "middle class," so what do I know?

Perhaps start a new thread, as opposed to hijacking someone else's. It's really a cross between irritation and amusement. Just sharing that it can come across as a tiny bit disrespectful.

And judging from my Inbox, I'm not alone in this feeling.

Is this the thread for judging your inbox?

I meant others have written me to say they are also displeased with the constant Dudu talk in unrelated threads. That's all.

I have to agree. The dudu talk is really overdone, and quite juvenile when interrupting other's threads. Sorry guys, it really is.

It's really just driving people away from this site. I hope people will be more respectful and maybe we can all just have a laugh about it. Before responding maybe take 5 minutes to think about your response before hitting "send"...that usually helps a person think a little more clearly. Everyone here is full of great info and it's a shame for that to be spoiled by a few people who cannot be respectful, and when asked in a jokingly manner to stop, respond so negatively.

Anyway, best of luck and I hope to see you back here again despite the frustration. These are really good people, just a bit childish at times from what I've seen. Maybe there's a full moon?

Thanks, Turk. People here are really nice, but at times this silliness just seems a bit overdone. I guess my attempt at joking about it in the same tone in which the "dudu" talkers converse only backfired. Oh well. When you try to bring it to their attention, they only attack more and get angry and decide to act out more. I wonder if they are this way in person? Intriguing thought.

Amazingly mature. THanks so much for sharing that with us. Are you in Kindergarten?

The TC Humor Police are back...Please refrain from using the "D" word or making any remarks that are less than "mature".

I'm feeling rather rebellious today!
Dudu, dudu, dudu, dudu, dudu, dudu, dudu, dudu.........

OK but laughing is strickly prohibited and you may been sanctioned for mentioning the forbidden "D" word.

I am sure you will be heavily chastised for this!! Just wait until the TC Humor Police see that you have been having fun..laughing...using the "D" word! You won't be laughing so hard then.

Yes, I know...I am incredibly worried about the repercussions for my actions.

Next, I may try to incur the wrath of catwoman and type in ALL CAPITALS!!!!!

Yeah, I just can't do it! I HATE WHEN PEOPLE TYPE IN ALL CAPITALS!!!!!!!!