Quoting elham:

what a boring link about Islam, please let people do what they like

Quoting MrX67:

sure standarts and rules needed for everything for don't creat a caos,and at other hand why the most of people have very double standarts when making comment about rules,my rules good urs bad,is there any big prejudice??

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting teaschip1: Quoting MrX67: sure standarts and rules needed for everything for don't creat a caos,and at other hand why the most of people have very double standarts when making comment about rules,my rules good urs bad,is there any big prejudice?? It's called having an opinion MrX.. Sure you can express your thoughts about rules and some rules are meant to be criticized or even broken. But to comment "you should let people do what they want" is an irresponsible view..with out any explanation,again this is my opinion. If we let people do what they want, you really think our society will have any order. However, referring to sports specifically they do have specific attire and I believe everyone should be upheld to these standards. In American soccer (football) you are not permitted to wear jewerly. Well, if I am a Christian who wears a cross...I am required to take it off. Guess what, if I refuse I am not permitted to play. Why should this girl be considered an exception to the rule, because of her faith?

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting MrX67: Quoting teaschip1: Quoting MrX67: sure standarts and rules needed for everything for don't creat a caos,and at other hand why the most of people have very double standarts when making comment about rules,my rules good urs bad,is there any big prejudice?? It's called having an opinion MrX.. Sure you can express your thoughts about rules and some rules are meant to be criticized or even broken. But to comment "you should let people do what they want" is an irresponsible view..with out any explanation,again this is my opinion. If we let people do what they want, you really think our society will have any order. However, referring to sports specifically they do have specific attire and I believe everyone should be upheld to these standards. In American soccer (football) you are not permitted to wear jewerly. Well, if I am a Christian who wears a cross...I am required to take it off. Guess what, if I refuse I am not permitted to play. Why should this girl be considered an exception to the rule, because of her faith? if aim to eating grape thats ok,but if aim to beat to grape grower no fair on that..

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting teaschip1: Quoting MrX67: Quoting teaschip1: Quoting MrX67: sure standarts and rules needed for everything for don't creat a caos,and at other hand why the most of people have very double standarts when making comment about rules,my rules good urs bad,is there any big prejudice?? It's called having an opinion MrX.. Sure you can express your thoughts about rules and some rules are meant to be criticized or even broken. But to comment "you should let people do what they want" is an irresponsible view..with out any explanation,again this is my opinion. If we let people do what they want, you really think our society will have any order. However, referring to sports specifically they do have specific attire and I believe everyone should be upheld to these standards. In American soccer (football) you are not permitted to wear jewerly. Well, if I am a Christian who wears a cross...I am required to take it off. Guess what, if I refuse I am not permitted to play. Why should this girl be considered an exception to the rule, because of her faith? if aim to eating grape thats ok,but if aim to beat to grape grower no fair on that.. I'm sorry I don't understand..could you please explain?

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting MrX67: Quoting teaschip1: Quoting MrX67: Quoting teaschip1: Quoting MrX67: sure standarts and rules needed for everything for don't creat a caos,and at other hand why the most of people have very double standarts when making comment about rules,my rules good urs bad,is there any big prejudice?? It's called having an opinion MrX.. Sure you can express your thoughts about rules and some rules are meant to be criticized or even broken. But to comment "you should let people do what they want" is an irresponsible view..with out any explanation,again this is my opinion. If we let people do what they want, you really think our society will have any order. However, referring to sports specifically they do have specific attire and I believe everyone should be upheld to these standards. In American soccer (football) you are not permitted to wear jewerly. Well, if I am a Christian who wears a cross...I am required to take it off. Guess what, if I refuse I am not permitted to play. Why should this girl be considered an exception to the rule, because of her faith? if aim to eating grape thats ok,but if aim to beat to grape grower no fair on that.. I'm sorry I don't understand..could you please explain? my mean if you say all this only for democratical order no harm,but if you defence some restrictions with some cultural or belief prejudices then really not fair..

Quoting teaschip1:

However, referring to sports specifically they do have specific attire and I believe everyone should be upheld to these standards. In American soccer (football) you are not permitted to wear jewerly. Well, if I am a Christian who wears a cross...I am required to take it off. Guess what, if I refuse I am not permitted to play. Why should this girl be considered an exception to the rule, because of her faith?

Quoting azade:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quite easy: as long as the rules upon clothing in certain sports dont change, she has to dress just like anyone else.

Though she mentions that last year she was allowed to go like this, I think that shows inconsistency, but even then, she should dress conform the rules.

Quoting MrX67:

i bet you are a strong defender of freedoms?

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting azade:

I'm convinced that would make loads of young muslim woman drop sports because they can't compromise with their faith -

Quoting azade:

I'm convinced that would make loads of young muslim woman drop sports because they can't compromise with their faith - the whole 'do I want to play some sports in this life or go to heaven in the next' scenario is going to play a huge role.
It is important not to lose these woman, to encourage them to play their part in society and the opposite is going to happen if they will be excluded from these kinds of activities.

Quoting MrX67:

to be naked in brain better way to be naked on body

Quoting azade:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quite easy: as long as the rules upon clothing in certain sports dont change, she has to dress just like anyone else.

Though she mentions that last year she was allowed to go like this, I think that shows inconsistency, but even then, she should dress conform the rules.

Quoting azade:

I don't think you read what I wrote. Covering the body in islam is, by the vast majority of muslims, seen as a requirement. Wearing a cross, as you used as an example, is not a requirement. It's not about simply stating something is a requirement just for the heck of it, it is of huge importance to them. That's a fact. Now, what you want to do about it, that's something that can be put to debate.

Quoting azade:

I'm convinced that would make loads of young muslim woman drop sports because they can't compromise with their faith - the whole 'do I want to play some sports in this life or go to heaven in the next' scenario is going to play a huge role.
It is important not to lose these woman, to encourage them to play their part in society and the opposite is going to happen if they will be excluded from these kinds of activities.

Quoting lalisia:

"getting religion involved in any subject and/or any subjects with religion as the main theme is prohibited"

Quoting libralady:

In my opinion, sport is one place that relgion should not encroach into. There has always been rules in sport, and for a very good reason. It is where the phrase "level playing field" comes from. Everyone, who partipates in a particular sport are equal, despite colour, race or creed.

When I used to compete as teenager, we had rules on clothing, some we did not like, one because the clothes were horrible, and two they were expensive for the parents. But if we wanted to compete for our school then we did as we were asked.

To me this is no different, and if this girl wants to compete then she should respect the rules.

Quoting MrX67:

some people look at the women or girls as they r alien who wears hasema on beachs,any comment about that?

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quote:

Quoting libralady:

To me this is no different, and if this girl wants to compete then she should respect the rules.

Quoting teaschip1:

Should she be disqualified?

Muslim Athlete

Quoting Cacık:

Quoting teaschip1:

I don't agree, you can use the same analogy for any rule then. I ran a stop sign a couple times, an officer saw me do it and looked the otherway maybe even gave me a warning. However, the 3rd time I ran the stop sign he gave me a ticket. Just because nothing was said the first two times, doesn't mean it was right. I do agree that they should have been more proactive and addressed the issue the first time. Because I can see how it would send a message it's permissable.

Quote:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

some people look at the women or girls as they r alien who wears hasema on beachs,any comment about that?>>>>http://www.hasema.com/ i think main problem not shape of clothes or wearing stilies,thats matter how much we tolreated to differences unless this diversities don't give any harm social peace or order??

Quoting azade:

Running a stop sign is a very serious matter, in my native country it costs you your license. You initially had a point but maybe you should work on your comparisons. Colours may break a rule but it's hardly the same thing as causing potential danger to people in traffic.

I hope the girl shows up in the right colours next time so she can prove what she can do, "even" as a hijabi.

Quoting azade:

I hope the girl shows up in the right colours next time so she can prove what she can do, "even" as a hijabi.

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting azade:

Quoting teaschip1: Quoting azade: Running a stop sign is a very serious matter, in my native country it costs you your license. You initially had a point but maybe you should work on your comparisons. Colours may break a rule but it's hardly the same thing as causing potential danger to people in traffic. I hope the girl shows up in the right colours next time so she can prove what she can do, "even" as a hijabi. Of course I wasn't comparing apples to apples anyone could see that. I don't think any comparison would appease you Azade.

Quoting teaschip1:

I assumed you were familiar with the term shared abstraction. It's when someone uses an analogy that doesn't necessarily have a direct relation..but an idea, a pattern an attribute or effect. And look closer, I never said they were the SAME thing.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Actually, if I were to be on a beach where women dress like this, they would make ME feel uncomfortable. I would probably feel as if they are looking at me like a western w**** asking to get raped. In fact, I am only enjoying the sunshine (that humans actually need) and the salt of the sea on my body.

If a woman dresses this willingly, she keeps a system where the man has the power over the woman going. If a woman is, maybe without realising it, forced into wearing these, I can only feel sorry for her.

And just for the record: Im a very modest dresser and you would never catch me wearing clothes that show too much of 'private skin'. But this is not a case of modesty and shyness, it goes much deeper into the roots of a way of thinking, that one should stay far away from.

Quoting thehandsom:

Just as an extra info:
Couple of years ago I was in Sile/Istanbul with my parents on the beach. And we saw several women wearing those head to toe covering things. And the men with them were wearing very long swimming trunks. They were trying to enjoy themselves.

My first thought was 'oh well, they have right to be there and enjoy themselves as like any other citizens'. But bizaarly my mother, who is a quite devoted muslim, did not take the same view. Her reaction was :'What is this? if you are that muslim what are you doing here?'. She also said that (in her simplistic turkish way) 'they are trying to say that all these girls wearing normal swimming costumes on this beach are all prostitutes'.
That was what her opinion was about the subject!!

Quoting thehandsom:

Just as an extra info:
Couple of years ago I was in Sile/Istanbul with my parents on the beach. And we saw several women wearing those head to toe covering things. And the men with them were wearing very long swimming trunks. They were trying to enjoy themselves.

My first thought was 'oh well, they have right to be there and enjoy themselves as like any other citizens'. But bizaarly my mother, who is a quite devoted muslim, did not take the same view. Her reaction was :'What is this? if you are that muslim what are you doing here?'. She also said that (in her simplistic turkish way) 'they are trying to say that all these girls wearing normal swimming costumes on this beach are all prostitutes'.
That was what her opinion was about the subject!!

Quoting AEnigma III:

This is very very true DK. Why muslim men assume that you are on the beach "displaying yourself" - are they completely sick? Out of interest do muslim women who completely cover themselves suffer any physical ill-health due to lack of sunshine - health experts recommend at least 15 minutes per day. As far as I am aware you would suffer lack of vitamin D ...

Covering yourself does not stop sick men thinking sick things - they just find other things to get sapik about! In Victorian times when UK women word long dresses, the accident sight of an ankle was enough to excite them!

Quoting MrX67:

friends we talking about a main human right or freedom,how can we judge other one's prefer while this choice doesn't give any harm to social order????

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting MrX67:

İ think theres no place in any law system to put limits on some main human rights with social and political phobias...law rules written only with objective criterions for keep all diversities side by side in a social order..

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting MrX67: Quoting thehandsom: Just as an extra info: Couple of years ago I was in Sile/Istanbul with my parents on the beach. And we saw several women wearing those head to toe covering things. And the men with them were wearing very long swimming trunks. They were trying to enjoy themselves. My first thought was 'oh well, they have right to be there and enjoy themselves as like any other citizens'. But bizaarly my mother, who is a quite devoted muslim, did not take the same view. Her reaction was :'What is this? if you are that muslim what are you doing here?'. She also said that (in her simplistic turkish way) 'they are trying to say that all these girls wearing normal swimming costumes on this beach are all prostitutes'. That was what her opinion was about the subject!! i think your mother has to be aware of who has different life style they minimum have to same right to use beachs minimum as much as her right,but seems she has effected from extrem secular discussions while judding em by don't ask any question to them??really very sad

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting thehandsom: Quoting MrX67: Quoting thehandsom: Just as an extra info: Couple of years ago I was in Sile/Istanbul with my parents on the beach. And we saw several women wearing those head to toe covering things. And the men with them were wearing very long swimming trunks. They were trying to enjoy themselves. My first thought was 'oh well, they have right to be there and enjoy themselves as like any other citizens'. But bizaarly my mother, who is a quite devoted muslim, did not take the same view. Her reaction was :'What is this? if you are that muslim what are you doing here?'. She also said that (in her simplistic turkish way) 'they are trying to say that all these girls wearing normal swimming costumes on this beach are all prostitutes'. That was what her opinion was about the subject!! i think your mother has to be aware of who has different life style they minimum have to same right to use beachs minimum as much as her right,but seems she has effected from extrem secular discussions while judding em by don't ask any question to them??really very sad I think my mother knows them very well. That is the reason why she talked like that. Her daughter/my sister goes to the beach in swimming costume. AND SHE KNOWS THAT WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT HER. That is what makes her angry. She knows that it is not about islam or freedom. she knows that they want sheria by heart. She knows that they are faking the freedom cries for their ultimate goal which is sheria. It is the common people's generic idea btw in Turkey.

Quoting thehandsom:

which was abolished by Ataturk.

Quoting MrX67:

pity so many people like you never aware of the realities their own society or country??

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting MrX67: Quoting thehandsom: Quoting MrX67: Quoting thehandsom: Just as an extra info: Couple of years ago I was in Sile/Istanbul with my parents on the beach. And we saw several women wearing those head to toe covering things. And the men with them were wearing very long swimming trunks. They were trying to enjoy themselves. My first thought was 'oh well, they have right to be there and enjoy themselves as like any other citizens'. But bizaarly my mother, who is a quite devoted muslim, did not take the same view. Her reaction was :'What is this? if you are that muslim what are you doing here?'. She also said that (in her simplistic turkish way) 'they are trying to say that all these girls wearing normal swimming costumes on this beach are all prostitutes'. That was what her opinion was about the subject!! i think your mother has to be aware of who has different life style they minimum have to same right to use beachs minimum as much as her right,but seems she has effected from extrem secular discussions while judding em by don't ask any question to them??really very sad I think my mother knows them very well. That is the reason why she talked like that. Her daughter/my sister goes to the beach in swimming costume. AND SHE KNOWS THAT WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT HER. That is what makes her angry. She knows that it is not about islam or freedom. she knows that they want sheria by heart. She knows that they are faking the freedom cries for their ultimate goal which is sheria. It is the common people's generic idea btw in Turkey. pity so many people like you never aware of the realities their own society or country??

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting ciko:

is thehandsom who always defends freedom of speech defending "headscarf ban" now?

Quoting ciko:

what makes me angry is that a headscarved woman cant work in government department but a man who has same ideas can do anything in the same places..a radical islamist man can be a judge! is this fair?

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting Cacık:

you're link doesn't open here in Turkey - anyone else able to open it in Turkey ???

Quote:

Quoting ciko:

welcome to turkey

Quoting MrX67:

[i'm guess you thinking all the women and girls who covering their heads or wearing a bit different doin that with only society's,family's or men's pressure and they r all slaves of the out pressures and noone of em doesn't have any personality or identity?

Quoting Deli_kizin:

MrX67, can you please answer these questions as being just a question. Im not referring to anything (I didnt intend to) so that also means Im not attacking anything. No peacefully-, islam-, or freedom-related answer, just a to-the-point answer on each question please!

If you are a woman and believe in something, that says man is worth more than woman, should we say 'Its your right to believe that a man is worth more than a woman' or should we try and protect you from yourself?

If someone believes in something, should we just stay away and say 'freedom', or should we try to explain that the TEMELLERİ of what that person believes, are wrong?

If someone believes in something, KNOWİNG that what he/she believes in is wrong, should we say 'freedom' or feel sorry for that person?

Quoting AEnigma III:

.............The fact is that if you are a radical islamist you should move to the UK. We have them all here - taking instruction by videocam straight from Saudi Arabia!!! They enjoy great status here and can work wherever they like and wear whatever they want, despite preaching that all non-muslims should be killed !!!

A recent BBC documentary went inside the largest and most popular mosque in Birmingham and found only hatred, anti-western propaganda and instruction that "all westerners were evil and should be killed"

I love our country!.....NOT

Quoting alameda:

It is wrong and unIslamic in the extreem.

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quote:

I can assure you it is only ignorant people that do not wish to understand the big picture and see the beauty in Islam that use such insulting language towards it.

Quoting SERA_2005:

I can assure you it is only ignorant people that do not wish to understand the big picture and see the beauty in Islam that use such insulting language towards it.

Quoting SERA_2005:

I can assure you it is only ignorant people that do not wish to understand the big picture and see the beauty in Islam that use such insulting language towards it.

Quoting AEnigma III:

I have seen it all now!! My UK bank offers the following bank account for muslims!!! I wonder if I can get a Christian Bank Account in Saudi? An Agnostic one in Iran?

Of course no! I am a second class citizen in THEIR countries with fewer rights and no respect.

http://www.lloydstsb.com/current_accounts/islamic_account.asp

Quoting Elisabeth:

hehehe...so everyone else can bank unethically?

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting AEnigma III:

I have seen it all now!! My UK bank offers the following bank account for muslims!!! I wonder if I can get a Christian Bank Account in Saudi? An Agnostic one in Iran?

Of course no! I am a second class citizen in THEIR countries with fewer rights and no respect.

http://www.lloydstsb.com/current_accounts/islamic_account.asp

Quoting alameda:

Dear AEnigma, I know it is confusing. Unfortunately often spiritual paths become entwined with power structures.

In Christianity this was seen almost the instant it became the official church of Constantine. The burning of heretics rapidly ensued, later with the rise of the Roman Catholic church, we see Roman Catholic inquisitions, then there were the Protestant/Catholic wars, the Orthodox/Catholic split and on and on. These are but a few examples....I'm sure I need not list more?

Do you think the fact that whole Native American peoples were wiped out was due to the teachings of Christ?

Those who truly seek to follow a spiritual path are, it seems, in the minority. Throughout history the attempt at hijacking religions has been done.

In the Islamic world is not immune. As I said in my previous message, the rise of radical Islam coincides with the rise in oil wealth in the country that is home of radical Islam. Much of that money was used to fund radical mosques, provide them with teaching materials.

Quoting alameda:

Dear AEnigma, I know it is confusing. Unfortunately often spiritual paths become entwined with power structures.

In Christianity this was seen almost the instant it became the official church of Constantine. The burning of heretics rapidly ensued, later with the rise of the Roman Catholic church, we see Roman Catholic inquisitions, then there were the Protestant/Catholic wars, the Orthodox/Catholic split and on and on. These are but a few examples....I'm sure I need not list more?

Do you think the fact that whole Native American peoples were wiped out was due to the teachings of Christ?

Those who truly seek to follow a spiritual path are, it seems, in the minority. Throughout history the attempt at hijacking religions has been done.

In the Islamic world is not immune. As I said in my previous message, the rise of radical Islam coincides with the rise in oil wealth in the country that is home of radical Islam. Much of that money was used to fund radical mosques, provide them with teaching materials.

Quote:

or the Monty Python crew would have been immediately hanged for "The Life of Brian!!!"

Quoting alameda:

Those who truly seek to follow a spiritual path are, it seems, in the minority. Throughout history the attempt at hijacking religions has been done.

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting catwoman:

Dear Peace Train, thanks for bringing my attention to the youtube link Aenigma posted, since I haven't checked it out earlier. Anyways, my comment is - you have your argument and other people have theirs, I don't see any reason to trust your sources any more than Aenigma's. In any case, nobody's opinions are shaped by reading one article or by watching one video, I think there's plenty of real life examples for people to see what's going on.
However, you're right that this is not the right place for this sort of debates, so I'm done here.

Quoting peace train:

btw At the end of the links I put the statement "People can make their own minds up" but I deleted it in error.

Quoting AEnigma III:

Dearest Peacetrain,
Thank you so much for revealing the untruths in the video I posted. Apparently they were all actors and the speaker was held at gun-point to utter those words. (I hear the crowd scenes are up for an OSCAR ). It was not filmed in the largest mosque in Birmingham at all, but at Universal Studies!

People who complain of "bad editing" are ones with something to hide. You can "edit" some speakers all you like and find nothing which says words like the speaker in this video.

Thank you for your application to have this thread locked. Erdem needs vigilant members like yourself to assist him in eradicating any violation of Turkishness.
AEnigma xxxxx

(Is Channel 4 considered lesser? As far as I am aware they are subject to the same broadcasting laws as the BBC - and have won many awards for their programming)

Quoting peace train:

Absolutely not considered lesser at all. It's only that I know you like to have sources quoted correctly. I can't see how the police have anything to hide. I can't see what the queen had to hide either. You know as well as I do that such editing goes on. I wasn't defending the people in the programme or the makers of the programme either. I thought I made it clear, I was not giving a view on the content, that's why I gave the example of the Queen too. My point is we need to be careful about what is posted and I gave some alternatives just to emphasise the point that argument for or against anything can be found in unlimited supply.

You are welcome to my time (if there was an emoticon for taking a bow, I would) . Perhaps you could provide me with a reference and explain to the moderators how conscientious I am

Quoting catwoman:

.....
So you're basically not getting it alameda. Oh well, didn't expect you to anyway.
People like you is exactly what's so evil about islam. They take NO RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoting MrX67:

bikini (sorry for this extrem sample)

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quote:

Your point was NOT that "we need to be careful about what is posted" and to put forward to opposite view. If that was true, you would not have asked this thread to be locked on the basis of my link.

You are, like the UK establishment, carrying out Political Correctness in the extreme towards people who have no respect for YOU until you convert to Islam.

Quoting peace train:

AEnigma,

You may accuse me of anything you like, if it pleases you. I know what I meant and I'm only sorry you didn't understand my point. I WAS telling the truth and I am NOT an advocate of extreme PC. Even CH4 allowed both sides a chance to speak when they reported the investigation on their news programme. Giving two sides enables people to make their own minds up, especially people who do not know the UK, which many people on this site don't. I don't think that is extreme PC.

I do NOT agree with incitement of racial hatred under any circumstances.

My own personal experience is that my circle of friends are Muslim and non Muslim and we frequently socialise together and have the utmost respect for each other. Nobody is trying to convert anybody.

My place of work is a multi ethnic state primary school and we regularly have Muslim parents choosing to send their children to our school from schools where there are no non Muslims. They make the move because they want their children to grow up in a multicultural environment where mutual understanding and respect is cultivated. Of course I know that this is not happening all over the country, but it's happening in many places.