I agree also. Recent reports suggest that good time girls visiting Mediterranean resorts are more likely to be raped by fellow Britons than locals.

 I really am not surprised!  I went to the V festival yesteday and witnessed things that would make your hair curl!  Women with things written on sicky cards, attached to themselves advertising "their services" for very nominal sums of money, all meant to be fun, but for some the wrong impression is given and how far should fun go?  They really do give us women a bad name!!!!

Libralady, how is this event that you mentioned different from Turks in Germany not speaking German and causing crime? You said that the government did not help them to integrate, therefore they cannot solely be blamed for their situation. But here, you do not acknowledge the influence of patriarchy on how women learn to see their own sexuality. How is it different? Even if you acknowledge the influence of nuture and nurture as 50/50, then you have at least 50% of the blame for this behavior on the objectification of women in the culture. Do you think that commodification of women´s bodies on a daily basis will not affect how women learn to view their own sexuality?

 For a start, I think the nature/nurture statistic you have quote is a little high and is more like 30/70% nature /nurture. (nurture being what is learned in life)

I can only talk about the UK and what I consider to be the reasons.

I am not sure who is to blame for the objectification of women in my culture, but I know you are going to say that it is all down to men!  I blame the media (magazines, TV etc) and the breakdown of the social structure.  Men run magazines therefore objectify women, but there are plenty of women editors out there to who also obejctify women and to some extents are probably worse.

What I am talking about above is how willing women are to objectify themselves.  You can make a decision

"I will wear a skirt that shows my knickers" "I won´t wear a skirt that shows my knickers"

"I will swear when I communicate" "I wont use swearing when I communicate"

"I will gladly wear a stupid t shirts that tells everyone I am willing to provide a sexual service"

"I will not wear a stupid t shirts that tells everyone I am willing to provide a sexual service"

To me this sort of thing is up to the individual to make the choice and that is up to them.  But this sort of behaviour makes women more vulnerable, it is something I find embarassing. 

I dont really know how to answer your question, but I gather you think it is ok to flash your knickers or your breast to anyone willing to watch?  I don´t think so, no more than it is acceptable for men to flash their D**ks in public.  They would be arrested for indecent exposure but I have never heard of a women being arrested for the same offence for baring her breasts in public (and I dont mean on a beach!)

As for women learning how to view their bodies, there is a choice!  And that choice as far as I am concerned it is about decency and decorum!

I agree with you. But.... even when a woman is wearing skirts just above or below the knee, a pantalon/jeans, a not tight shirt/sweater/dress, a shirt with normal neck-line etcetera, she still gets in many situations unwanted and sometimes very rude comment. What should she do? Whose ´fault´ is that?

 Well I for one would make a rude comment back!  No it is not her fault but I am talking about women who willingly show off their undies, breasts, and even more, in public! 

I didn´t mean just one (specific) woman, but the fact that men think they have ´the right´ to do so and to look at women being objects, even if they are decently dressed. Who is to blame for that? Education? Upbringing? Illiteracy? Porn industry? ....?

I do agree that many woman flaunt themselves and then wonder why there is no respect.  On the one hand I agree that no woman ever deserves to be mistreated or abused due to her appearance but on the other hand, where do you draw the line ?

It is common knowledge and a known fact that men are more visual, more aroused by the outside appearance first and foremost (I mean the natural first response).

It is a common response to shout that men should supress there emotions, control themselves, grow up etc.....    But in fairness when should a woman learn to also accept basic instinctive differences between men and women and learn that there are some natural limits.

I personally would not exhibit my underwear or act in a suggestive manner and then think to myself, why did that man pinch my behind, or make a crude comment to me.

I find it harder to defend a woman who flaunts underwear and body parts when she cries abuse!  Part of me says it should NEVER happen, another part of me says she too should have know better too.

There is a fine line.

I know I am going to get totally hammered so in my defense, I am only thinking aloud and expressing my thoughts, I do not think I am right or wrong - this is such a hard topic.

 Actually, this kind of behaviour can be a huge turn off for men. Rightly or wrongly, assumptions about a woman´s character is often made because of  the way she dresses and often men don´t find it attractive.

Of course men also dress for attention and I´m sure there are many women here who like nothing more than to appreciate the sight of a man´s well honed body . . . just look at all the attention thehandsom gets

There you go, 70% is nurture - so if you keep on banging onto women that they are sex objects, are you surprised that they end up objectifying themselves? I am really shocked that you put NO blame on the culture! You just put the entire responsibility for this mentality on the indivituals. People behave very differently from culture to culture, therefore.... the culture is to be blamed!

Who is responsible for "the culture" - this is a complex question! You can´t say one thing or another. Cultures change over time in a fluid way, you do not notice these changes in individuals, for each individual, what she/he believs seems to be "natural". 50 years ago a woman had no right in England to have a credit card on her own and if 100 years ago a woman was burnt alive for "provoking a man" (=witchcraft), many women also thought it was right! This woman hating did not magically disappear these days, it just changed its form to more subtle ways that can be manufactured and sold by capitalism. Do you think that the massive objectification, increasingly more pornographic media on a daily basis do not affect girls since very early?

Look, the fact is that at this point the culture has a certain dominant ideology and all men and women are influenced by it. So even women who work in some places, especially when they are paid to write very specific articles, of course they will write these things - it will not occur to them as somehting outrageous. It takes courage to oppose the dominant ideology that you´ve been raised with and that being all you´ve ever seen. Similarly to people who grew up in an islamic country leaving Islam!

There is this common bullshit line sold by capitalists saying that capitalism only offers ´goods´, and you are ´free to choose´ not to buy them. Sounds pretty convincing, doesn´t it?

The bottom line is that we live in a male dominant culture, men still own the majority of everything (like 80-90%!). And, male dominant ideological foundation is the foundation of our countries. That means that some beliefs are still rooted in people that are beneficial to men and harmful to women. This ideological foundation is being continuously perpetuated by our media, by pornography, by the kind of culture we live in, by the way things are set up. In a way, men are also ´victims´ of this system, as many normal men end up having misogynistic attitudes after being raised in this system. However, once they become callous enough, they learn to like it, because it´s to their easy benefit.

Ok, let´s blame men and the culture. But who raised those men? Who are 50% of that culture? Who keeps also traditions alive? All innocent women who are forced to do so?