Yes, I was wondering if that might appear I was backing down. You see, I realized your standards and semantics are different & changed to a more easy to understood word, unwise from promiscuous

AEnigma said: "Without wishing this "argument" to become a regular feature - or even a saga ( ) - I have noticed that you often contradict yourself between posts and I do get confused. You go from saying that women who believe in sex before marriage are "promiscuous" and then the next day you deny it and merely call them "unwise". "

Given the amount of failed relationships and the proliferation of services and sites, as well as the time tested nature of the system, perhaps it's not such a bad idea? I mean, how do people find suitable mates? I think it can be summed up with knowing that in the "West" people Fall in love, where as in the "East" they find compatible mates to fall in love with.

AEnigma said: "You now write three paragraphs about having a soulmate and being loved and needing a mate. However, the last time we discussed marriage you were saying that you should not marry for love, but for family compatibility and having shared culture and interests - in fact, advocating arranged marriages! "

Perhaps if you think of it as blessing your relationship, rather than a legalization, it would be more palatable? Anyway, it's a question of semantics....

AEnigma said: "Anyway, for the ermmmm 7th time (?), I would point out (again) that sex without marriage does not equate promiscuity. If I choose not to marry, it doesn't mean I dont want a "soulmate" or to be loved. I don't have religious feelings towards marriage and I dont enjoy the idea of having to "legalise" my partnership or to fit in with the "norm". I don't particularly relish being a "wife" either thanks. However, this does not make me any less virtuous or pure than someone who chooses marriage."

Ahhh Victoria....poor lady probably would be horrified to know her privacy had been compromised in such a way.
Ewwww

AEnigma said: "PS. Must admit to being a bit shocked at Victoria's "toys" too "

Another thing to be careful of is "flavorings" That can or can not mean animal products. I have a list from a Hindu friend that lists all the prohibited products, and one from a Jewish friend that shows how non Kosher products can be in seemingly innocent products. Now I look for specific signs, like a Hechsheror Halal on products I purchase.

I've noticed recently Salahddin being identified as being Kurdish, but I think he identified himself with being Muslim first, not Kurdish. His greatness was in his ability to unite the Muslims to fight against the Crusaders.

AEnigma said: "Alameda you seem to have big issues with "sex". Like it or not, ALL living creatures have a huge compulsion to reproduce. You can make laws, you can create religious rules, but a living creature's desire to multiply will always find a way! It is the most basic of "wills" given to all creatures - especially as soon as they reach sexual maturity, and is about survival of the species."

I will ignore your first comment, as it is inappropriate and under the belt, so to speak. I'm attempting not to personalize any discussion I become involved in. Any comment I make is based on a knowledge of both cultures. Of course all creatures compulsion to multiply is one of the strongest forces. However, we are not simple animals. and we have healthy methods to dealing with these issues, as well as those that are not healthy.

AEnigma said: "We live by our social rules and say we are not animals, but you will NEVER be able to stop some people from acting on nature's strongest will . We are living unnaturally for our bodies (which should be producing children at a much earlier age). "

That is a good point. In the "West" childbearing has been put off for a ridiculous amount of time. Women are urged to get a career, which ignores her basic biological make up. The current career model is one that evolved for men, not women. Maybe we need to reevaluate the whole thing and come up with a model that allows women to bear children at a time when they are biologically most ready.

I know Turkish couples who married while they were both in school. The women have continued their education, and the husbands are fully supportive in all domestic areas.

As for the back door issue, it's tragic anyone would feel so much pressure to indulge in such highly dangerous and risky practices. I would question WHY these young women feel they have to keep up with "Modern Western Women" in the first place.

I have seen many Eastern men with their Western girlfriends, the men don't go out with the "Eastern" women, because they don't want to destroy the purity, but they feel have "needs" to satisfy. Of course this is absurd. No man who is not himself a virgin has the right to expect his wife to be a virgin. However that is too often ignored .""Women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity "(Quran 24:26)

Given the closeness of Turkish society, by that I mean the watchfulness, I seriously doubt if many of the young ladies who indulged in such practices would be able to easily pass themselves off as "virgin". Certainly the health risks are serious, and for what? The whole thing is tragic, but I seriously doubt it is that wide a practice.

There is no way to really determine virginity other than a medical examination. Many young ladies lives have been ruined by unreasonable demands and unreliable proofs (all virgins do not bleed). I do wish that would change, and I think it is now.

AEnigma said: 'It is not about being sex crazed, its about trying to "civilize" a fundamental urge!!!"

On that we are in agreement. But then let us remember we are humans, or at least trying to be. "Humans can be the highest of the high or the lowest of the low." We have higher brain parts, not just the reptile brain. I'm afraid many function more in the reptilian brain than the higher brain.
reptile brain

One thing that I find interesting here is the how Westerners seem to like to talk about all sorts of things that people in the East are discreet about. I think it's a throwback on the confessional and the desire for absolution. In the East that tradition does not exist and it is a private matter. To expose anyones less than desirable attributes is in itself a shameful practice.

If someone has told you things in confidence, who are you to blab it all over the Internet? To talk like this about Turkish girls (and in fact this conversation has now encompassed all Muslim girls) just makes it more difficult for them. it causes suspicion and more restraints on their ability to go to college away from the protection of their families.

You have some interesting points AEnigma, but I have a life and have to go out now. Later on today I'll address your comments.

I feel very sad for anyone who feels they have to keep up with others.