8.10 vapuru/Cemal Süreya

Sesinde ne var biliyor musun
Bir bahçenin ortasi var
Mavi ipek kis çiçegi
Sigara içmek için
Üst kata çikiyorsun

Sesinde ne var biliyor musun
Uykusuz Türkçe var
Isinden memnun degilsin
Bu kenti sevmiyorsun
Bir adam gazetesini katlar

Sesinde ne var biliyor musun
Eski öpüsler var
Banyonun buzlu cami
Birkaç gün görünmedin
Okul sarkilari var

Sesinde ne var biliyor musun
Ev daginikligi var
Ikide bir elini basina götürüp
Rüzgârda dagilan yalnizligini
Düzeltiyorsun

Sesinde ne var biliyor musun
Söyledigin sözcükler var
Küçücük seyler belki
Ama günün bu saatinde
Anit gibi dururlar

Sesinde ne var biliyor musun
Söyleyemedigin sözcükler var.

=================
 
 Ferry at 8:10
 
Do you know what you have in your voice?
An innermost of a garden, it is.
A silken blue winter flower,
You are going upstairs
To have a cigarette.

Do you know what you have in your voice?
A wide-awake Turkish, it is.
You are unhappy with your job.
You dont like this city.
A man folds his papers.

Do you know what you have in your voice?
There are Vintage kisses.
Frosted glass of the bath.
You were missing for a few days.
There are school songs.

Do you know what you have in your voice?
The messiness of a home, it is.
Now and then,
You are adjusting your loneliness.
By bringing your hands around your head.

Do you know what you have in your voice?
There are the words you uttered.
They are small things maybe.
But at this time of they
They stand up like a monument.

Do you know what you have in your voice?
There are words you could not say..

My try

You should stop going personal like  ignorant people with low IQ we see here who have run out of ideas to argue, would do..

If you have something to say, say it without resorting to personal insult which you very well know will come back at you..

Apart from that, we talked about the defintion of terrorism here before.. So you should stop trying to lecture about it, because, obviously, you dont know much about terrorism or cause of it etc!!

I thought you would love to  leave  the important things to historians. and Now you are the expert of Ottoman history? eh? And since you ´know the Kurdish problem; is a historical problem, dont you think trying to associating the latest surge of the kurdish problem with Israel is a bit of a fantasie which is being used to for masturbation of national feelings? eh?

As far as the writings about the army is just about the love of the army you have in your heart.. Mine was much more what the situation is at the moment.. I dont know why you wanted to show how much you respect and love the army is unknown to me. Apart from me, there are many who think that ´our army has failed against the war on terror´ .. But what is wrong of saying that? Usa has failed against Al-kaide for example. I can not see the reason why you think it is something to do with patriotism. Lying or being blind or NOT telling the truth is nothing to do with the patriotism.

I dont think you are in a position to tell me what to do or what not to do really. By doing that you are getting one step closer to the racists of my country who scream ´love it or leave it´. (try to hide it next time please)

So DO NOT!!

I really think people who are not satisfied with this change of the law and try to accuse those kids or their parents should read Murat Belge´s writings:

(They are Turkish)

http://taraf.com.tr/murat-belge/makale-hakkari-hatirasi-iii.htm

http://taraf.com.tr/murat-belge/makale-hakkarinin-sonu.htm

He was trying to find an answer to a young person´s question: ´Hocam -my teacher-, what do you want us to do if you dont want us to throw stones´

Apperantly he could not find a proper answer for them (after explaining they are the generations born in poverty after their parent were forced to leave their villages when they were burnt etc)

He tried to explain ´the contditions in which those kids exist , are forcing them to fight..No matter what the fight is..´

He thought that "those kids knew they would not change anything by throwing stones".

He also ´interestingly´ conclude that, those kids wont listen to anybody (including their parents) but only Apo.. He was not sure if it will be the case for tomorrow..

That is unfortunately where our approach to our Kurdish problem brought us..

This is getting increasingly boring actually..But for the sake of looking for the truth:

- Terrorism is not an entity itself..Terrorism is the result of a social/economic/political dissatisfaction. Specially if the people who are not satisfied, can not express themselves the other ways(in the parties; in the parliaments etc) ..(There were over 50 groups in Turkey before 1980s that openly declared the armed struggle was the means they will use.. Many of them can be categorized as terrorists but only one group, Turkish Communist Party, had help from Soviets. And they were even not committed fully into armed struggle. None of the others had any foreign help agencies etc.)

- For the fantasists, I kept asking if them to show any proof!! was there a single proof? A HUGE NO.. I suspected the camp in Holland can be a camp but even it turned out to be not a camp at all.. The camp in France..? I can not see anything there!! With the way our fantasists definition, all these clubs/cultural organizations in all over Europe can be considered as camp.. But they are not!! so what do we have here after all those discussions? just fantasies..suspicions!! (I also explained "why getting rid of ´foreign elements´ out of discussion is so difficult for generations who are brain washed with those excuses decay after decay") ... In the end our entire army is fighting with terrorists for last 30 years and they are still up and fighting there..

-In the end WE HAVE A KURDISH PROBLEM in Turkey..And considering the support for the terrorists is HUGE (Kurdish party getting 1/3 of the votes from Kurds), a solution has to be developed for Kurdish problem+ PKK. You can not separate them now..There is no solution.

- I also explained in my numerous posts about those 17.000 deaths/ burning villages/ forcing people out/ all those cases went to EU Human Rights courts/ children killed etc.. Without taking all those into consideration when talking about the Kurdish problem will NOT have any credibility..

-I also explained about the reasons of the latest surge of PKK attacks.. If I am not wrong, I EVEN TOLD HERE THE ATTACKS WERE IMMINENT AND COMING! (because you dont need to be ´extra clever´ to see that: we stopped the opening; started to arrest Kurdish politicians; Apo pulls out of the talks.. AND PKK STARTS..Are you that BLIND to see above? is it a the rocket science?)

Basically in the end:

- We have a Kurdish Problem.. Our Kurdish issue has been the problem since 1920s.

- Thinking that "it is something to do with other countries or their secret services etc" has been excuses by the state to beef up the nationalistic feelings...And it was further developed by the fantasists whenever something happened without giving any proof.. (it is almost like having an argument with a person who believes in Dogma actually.. How do you believe without any evidence: I dont need evidence to believe that.. Allah allah!!)

- Thinking ´this is a terrorism problem only´ was WRONG in the first place and caused us almost 70.000 deaths..

- I think in the end, we Turks now realized there is no end to this fight.. We are not winning this war with armed struggle...We have to make peace.

- The peace will be and can be made between fighting parties..

- We have been saying ´terrorism only´ and tried to finish our Kurdish problem with the guns only and FAILED..

- More armed fights will only increase the resentment between Turks and Kurds.

The question is really very simple in the end:

- Looking at the problem as ´Terrorism only´ and keep fighting (like we did last 30 years and caused 70.000 death) and cause more resentment (and in the end split of Turkey)

- Accepting that ´it is not terrorism only´ and making peace, no more killing and living EQUALLY with the Kurds..

I agree with many points you mention above.. I tried to bolden the points I agree..

But when it comes to how all those events are ralated to PKK attacks are abit ´thin and weak´ and it also proves that you have not been following the events!!

1990s were the times when the most intense fighting happened in Turkey. It was  the times Jitem killed thousands of Kurds by just picking them up from the streets from their homes etc and then torturing and killing them.. It was also the times when it looked like "PKK can be defeated".

I dont want to go into details of the past events that much.. But just look at the last couple of months.. The terror was screaming ´I am coming´. Just read that post:

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTitle_47503

The government reacted by cracking down on the Kurdish Communities Union, or KCK, the alleged urban wing of the terrorist organization. Even dozens of elected mayors in the Southeast were arrested by the police, which was clearly a mistake. The PKK responded with more violence, and that is how we got here.

It is clearly NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL. Why should it be? It was not Israel arrested those Kurdish politicians.. It was not israel stopped the Kurdish opening?

Those politicians were arrested by the state.. Kurdish openning was stopped by the nationalists (I hope temporarily) !!

And Apo was saying way before that the he is going to pull out end of that month-just before the attacks starting- Everybody who knows the politics, knew that it was coming!!And no Israel-ships-flotills were in the horizon at the time people realised the attacks were going to start!! They say that the first attack (at the same day of Israel-ships incident) was planned long long before..

Because , you were told year after year that ´it is all terrorism and it is all foreign elements´ you are instinctly looking at the countries that you can blame when there is an incident. Not only you personally.. Some papers/politicians/army generals are doing that too..

I know it is difficult to accept that.. Because, if you do, it will be like your life jacket is

taken away.. It was the excuse for many many years for the failures..

The good news is, we NOW know that our Kurdish problem is our INTERNAL problem. So instead of blaming the others, we are looking for a solution...And "The Kurdish opening" is the sole PROOF of it. (that also explains why most Turkish nationalists are against it.. Because, years after years they said -ah it is terrorism only and it is all foreign involvement- If it was true, WHY would there be an opening?)

I just saw Armegon´s post about Netherland PKK camp disguising themselves as cultural centers. That was what I was trying to say the other day : In Turkey, we are almost living in a world of our own.. People in other countries like netherland,uk,france etc have something and they call it democracy. In those set of codes, people, as long as they dont take arms into their hands to force their ideas, have some rights.. For example.. You can have a tshirt with  Bobby Sands printed at the fornt (He is an Irish terrorist died on hunger strike). They can form a club/cultural center etc and praise him and IRA.

You can not put that person into jail!! Because that person has some (human) rights. But in Turkey, you can!! how? well.. Clearly, when people/state officials in Turkey, talking about ´human rights´,  definetely it is not the same ´human rights´ in other countries!! 

And when you say that but there is only one type of ´human rights´ and then those guys go: ´I dont want these human rights; your human rights are used to legalize terrorism; i dont want your democracy etc´

But in the end, we are not North Korea. We can be like them by isolating ourselves but we want to be in europe, we want to be the leading country in the middle east etc.. 

 Nazim Hikmet ..A section from Memleketimden Insan Manzaralari
 
 ......
 Vagonlar geliyorlar sallanarak.
 Kartalli Kâzim
 köprünün orda bir agaci gösterdi Tatar yüzlü adama:
 "-Su köprünün dibindeki agaç yok mu?
 Art ayaklari üstüne kalkmis
 hayvana benzeyen agaç?
 Su, soldaki,
 koskocaman.
 Bak.
 Dallari köprüyü asan.
 O dallara astilar ölüsünü Ali Kemal´in.
 Istanbul´dan kaldirildi herif
 güpegündüz
 berberden,
 Beyoglu´nda tiras olurken.
 338´de..."
 "- Kim bu Ali Kemal?"
 "- Gazete muharriri.
 Ingiliz´den para alir.
 Adamiydi Halifenin.
 Gözlüklü,
 sisman.
 Kan damlardi kaleminden,
 fakat murdar,
 fakat pis bir kan.
 Gün olur daha derin,
 daha genis yara açar
 kalemin düsmanligi
 mavzerin düsmanligindan."
 "-Izmit bizde miydi o zaman?"
 "-Yeni girmistik.
 Ingilizler Istanbul´daydi daha.
 Ali Kemal´i çalip getirdiler Ingiliz´in mavi gözünden.
 Burda ´Geliyor!´ diye bir sayia çikti
 alti yedi saat önce.
 Iskeleye yigildi millet.
 Belki Izmit halkinin dörtte üçü,
 kadinlara varincaya kadar.
 Ben Ulu Caminin ordan bakiyorum
 Gözümde dürbün.
 Göründü karsidan motor nihayet,
 Bata çika geliyor.
 Kostum asagiya.
 Ben iskeleye inmeden
 çikarmislar Ali Kemal´i motordan.
 Surda
 tepede
 Saray Meydaninda hükümet konagi var
 kolordu dairesi,
 oraya götürdüler.
 
 Konagin önü
 meydan,
 sokaklar
 adam almiyor.
 
 Kayniyor karinca gibi Izmit halki.
 Fakat öfkeli,
 fakat merhametsiz.
 Çogu da gülüyor,
 bayram yeri gibi Izmit sehri.
 Hava da sicak,
 gök de bulutsuz.
 Ali Kemal 20 dakka kaldi kalmadi konakta
 disari çikarildi.
 Atti bir adim.
 Etrafini zabitlerle polisler almis.
 Kireç gibi yüzü.
 Sarisin.
 Birden ahali basladi bagirmaga:
 ´Kahrol Artin Kemal...´
 Durdu.
 Döndü.
 Arkasina bakti
 konagin kapisindan tarafa,
 belki de geri dönüp içeri girmek için.
 Fakat yüzüne karsi kapiyi agir agir kapadilar.
 Yürüdü sallanarak on adim kadar.
 Ahali boyuna bagiriyor.
 Bir tas geldi arkadan
 basina çarpti.
 Bir tas daha
 bu sefer yüzüne.
 Kirildi gözlükleri,
 biyiklarina dogru kanin aktigini gördüm.
 Birisi, "Vurun," diye haykirdi.
 Tas
 odun
 çürük sebze yagiyor.
 Muhafizlari birakti Ali Kemal´i.
 Ahali kara bulut gibi çullandi üzerine
 alasagi ettiler.
 Orda yerde yaptilar ne yaptilarsa.
 Sonra açildi bir parça ortalik.
 Baktim ki yatiyor yüzükoyun.
 Ayaginda bir donu kalmis
 kisa bir don.
 Çiplak eti pelte gibi tombul, beyaz.
 Bana hâlâ nefes aliyor gibi geldi.
 Bir ip bagladilar sol ayagina.
 Hiç unutmam
 sol ayaginda kundura, çorap filan yoktu
 fakat sag bacaginda çorap bagi kalmis.
 Basladilar ölüyü bacagindan sürümeye.
 Yokus asagi, basi taslara çarpip gidiyor.
 Millet pesinde.
 Bir aralik ipi koptu.
 Baglandi yenisi.
 Ibret alinacak hal.
 Halki kizdirmaya gelmez.
 Bir sabreder iki sabreder;
 her ne ise...
 Böylece dolasti Izmit sehrini Ali Kemal.
 Sonra
 dedim ya
 astilar su köprünün üstündeki dallara ölüsünü.
 Sonra ölüyü indirdiler
 fakat gömlegi mi, donu mu ne
 iç çamasirindan bir sey
 öteki dalda bir iki ay sallanip durdu.
 Sonra satildi müzayedeyle saati filan,

=====
 .
 Carriages are coming, rocking
 Kazim of Kartal
 Showed a tree around the bridge to the tartar faced man:
 "-Do you see the tree under that bridge?
 The tree that looks like an animal
 Standing up on its hind legs?
 That one, on the left
 The big one
 Look
 The one its branches longer than the bridge
 They hanged the dead body of Ali Kemal on those branches
 He was picked up from Istanbul
 In a broad daylight
 From the barber
 When he was shaving
 In Beyoglu at 338."
 "-Who is this Ali Kemal"
 "-A writer in a news paper
 He would take money from British
 He was man of caliphate.
 Wearing glasses
 Chunky
 Blood would drop from his pen
 But vile,
 But a dirty drop of blood.
 A pen can open deeper wounds than
 A rifle at times."
 "-Was Izmit ours at the time?"
 "-We had just entered.
 Brits were still in Istanbul
 They stole Ali Kemal while Blue British eyes were watching
 There was a rumour as ´he was coming´
 6 -7 hours before.
 People massed at the harbour.
 Maybe three quarters of Izmit,
 Even the women.
 I was waiting at Ulu Cami
 With my binocular.
 The boat emerged from the other side at last,
 Coming with a difficulty.
 I run down.
 But before I arrived to the harbour
 They took Ali Kemal from the boat.
 There,
 On the hill
 There is the government’s office in the square,
 They took him there.
 
 In front of the office,
 The square,
 The streets,
 Full of people.
 
 People of Izmit is like ants
 But angry
 But merciless
 Most of them are laughing
 City of Izmit was like festival place.
 It was hot
 And no clouds in the sky ..
 Ali kemal stayed 20 minutes or less in the office.
 He was taken out.
 He took a step.
 He was surrounded by officers and the police
 His face was like a limestone.
 Blonde.
 Suddenly, people started to shout:
 ´Down with Artin kemal..´
 He stopped
 And turned around
 Looked at the back
 Towards the door of the building,
 Maybe he wanted to go back in.
 But they shut the door on his face slowly.
 He walked around ten steps, shaking.
 The crowd was shouting continuously.
 Then, a stone came from the back
 And hit him in the  head.
 Then another one
 On his face this time.
 His glasses got broken,
 I saw the blood running down to his mustache.
 One of them roared ´hit´
 Stones
 Woods
 Rotten vegetables were pouring
 The Officers left Ali Kemal
 The crowd descended on him like a dark cloud
 They took him down
 They did whatever they did to him on the ground.
 Then it was cleared up little bit.
 He was laying on his front when I looked
 Only his shorts were on
 A short pair of shorts
 His naked flesh was white and fat like jelly
 He seemed still breathing to me..
 Then they tied a rope to his left foot.
 I never forget.
 There was not a sock or shoe in his foot
 But there was cord of a sock on his right leg
 They started to drag the dead body from his foot..
 Down the hill, going as his head was hitting the stones.
 The crowd was behind.
 The rope snapped at some stage.
 They tied a new one.
 A situation you got to draw a lesson.
 You must not make the people angry
 They would show patience one and twice;
 Whatever, anyways.
 Ali Kemal toured city of Izmit like that
 Then
 As I said
 They hanged up his dead body on those branches under the bridge
 Then they brought the dead body down
 But a piece from his shorts or his shirt
 Something from his underwear
 Dangled from the other branch for a couple of months
 They sold his things like his watch in an auction
 Way after..
 I knew a person
 Who bought one of his socks as a souvenir for 5 lira
 ....
 
 ps..Ali Kemal was great grand father of  Boris Johnson, who is Mayor of London. (I mentioned about it once I think)

My try..

Well

Just rumours and hear-says and a huge imagination..

So unbelievable to see people´s logic: You are saying something you believe..that is fine but where is the proof?.. the answer is : you wont see the proof because it is top secret... But how did you believe it in the first place? .. 

It really is unbelievable!! 

Of course, when you take these imaginations and rumours out of arguments, the bare truths is just waiting to hit hard: How on earth we could not finish this war? 

The stake is high because, in the end, our army is 800.000 almighty army.. I just learnt that PKK is having only 1500 terrorists in our borders.. They have the upper hand.. When you look at it, it is like they are chasing us

As It was mentioned Ahmet Altan´s column (http://www.taraf.com.tr/ahmet-altan/makale-altust.htm : He says they are not ambushing a squad , they are going and attacking the army stations, battalions, elite commando brigades. Each time, they are causing damage and leaving.. It looks like it is not the army chasing PKK, PKK is chasing the army..

When you take out the these so secret/imaginative/no proof hear-says there is a huge truth you have to face. And that is a shocking for some people.. No wonder why they keep hanging of these ´so secret they can not even see things´ without any proof..

Kurdish children jailed in Turkey under anti-terror law NO MORE

...

The law reduces the penalty for children accused of terrorism-related offenses and reforms legislation that has come under severe criticism from human right groups. Under the reform, children taking part in illegal protests or spreading separatist propaganda will no longer be prosecuted under anti-terror laws. Juvenile courts will handle cases related to such minors. The law also reduces the minimum prison sentence for anyone taking part in illegal protests to six months from one-and-a-half years.

Parliament passed a law Thursday night reducing penalties for children accused of terrorism-related offenses. This is the first law enacted as part of the government’s democratic initiative....

Hundreds of Kurdish children -- some as young as 11, according to human rights activists -- have been prosecuted by Turkish courts in the country´s Southeast. The new bill is part of the Justice and Development Party´s (AK Party) democratic initiative project designed to boost the rights of Kurds and end the terrorism of the Kurdistan Workers´ Party (PKK). The law was passed despite opposition from the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP).

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/..law-passes-in-parliament.html 

====

What a wonderful feeling to see something RIGHT is being done (despite the opposition from the racist party!!)

We had a discussion about it here : http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_46841

We need a deal, not war, with the PKK

The government is busy these days with the planning of "special units" that will fight the outlawed terrorist group the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, ....

The irony is that the Justice and Development Party, or AKP, government has actually been the bravest one ever with regard to the Kurdish question. Its “Kurdish opening,” started a year ago, was initially promising, but now it seems we are back to square one. We are again talking about the same "military solution" that has proved ineffective  and disastrous, ...

In a nutshell, the AKP do not go as far as it should have in order to win over the Kurdish nationalists. But it went far enough to enrage the Turkish ones.

Let’s look at how this happened. The AKP has been popular among the Kurds from the beginning and received a great election victory in the Kurdish Southeast in 2007. Soon after, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan initiated the Kurdish opening, which rested on two legs. The first was to win more Kurdish hearts and minds through reforms and gestures on cultural rights, such as starting a 24-hour official TV channel in Kurdish or allowing Kurdish institutes to be formed in universities.

The second.. was the disarmament of the PKK. The government apparently engaged in a covert dialogue with the organization, and hence came the "Habur affair." This started when about a dozen PKK members came down from the Kandil Mountains in northern Iraq, a military base of the organization, and entered Turkish territory from the Habur border gate. These unarmed but uniformed men were briefly questioned by officials, who were willing to let them go, and were then greeted by thousands of relatives and fans. When they reached Diyarbakir, hundreds of thousands welcomed them with fanfare. For these Kurds, their victorious fighters had returned with a victory.

For the rest of Turkey, though, this proved to be shocking and enraging. ..... Protests grew, and public support for the AKP, according to polls, dropped to its lowest point ever.

..... For worse, soon, the PKK restarted violence. (Some think in collaboration with the "deep state," which was happy to have the war going and see the AKP fail.) The government reacted by cracking down on the Kurdish Communities Union, or KCK, the alleged urban wing of the terrorist organization. Even dozens of elected mayors in the Southeast were arrested by the police, which was clearly a mistake. The PKK responded with more violence, and that is how we got here.

What really happened, I guess, was that in the aftermath of the "Habur affair," the AKP realized that making a deal with the PKK is simply not acceptable for the majority of Turkish society. So it wanted to proceed only with the first leg of the "Kurdish opening" (i.e., cultural rights), by excluding, and even cracking down on, the PKK.

But this plan obviously did not work. The PKK simply does not allow anybody to “solve the Kurdish question” without accepting it as a partner. That is too bad, but it is also a reality. The wishful plans for "winning the Kurds while defeating the PKK" do not help much, because the PKK has many fanatical supporters among the Kurds that we want to win. Its political parties routinely get 5 percent of the votes in every election. There is no way to uproot such a popularly rooted terrorist organization.

...

Thus, the only way out of Turkey’s decades-old nightmare seems to be a deal with the PKK, perhaps a bit similar to the one the British government made with the Irish Republican Army, or IRA, in the late 1990s. Such a deal should preserve the "indivisible unity" of Turkey, but also introduce de-centralization and multiculturalism, which are anathema to the Kemalist mind, but quite familiar to an Ottoman one. It should, to the pain of many, also open a way for today’s terrorists to become tomorrow’s politicians.

... PKK is on a rampage. (By the way, the PKK probably does this to make the AKP lose the elections. Erdogan’s party, after all, is its only rival among the Kurds.)

...

The rest:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=..10-07-20

====

Ah of course, we have to include Israel into all this..