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Feminist Bookstore in Istanbul
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1.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 03 Jan 2008 Thu 08:23 pm

Tucked away in a backstreet of Istanbul's sleepless Beyoğlu district, where even at night the population reaches two million, Turkey’s first feminist bookstore opened 10 days ago to welcome curious readers

ONUR BURÇAK BELLİ
ISTANBUL – Turkish Daily News


Turkey's first feminist bookstore, established by the Amargi Woman Academy, a women's organization founded in 2001 to develop feminist theory and practice, acts as a meeting point for Amargi and readers who follow feminist literature.

While some people were standing in front of the second-hand bookshelves that are literally filled with books and magazines that look brand new, as well old ones, others chose to sip tea or coffee and read in silence.

In a room at the back of the bookstore, Pınar Selek, a sociologist and the editor of Amargi journal and her friends were busy unpacking the 2008 calendars that were soon to be put on sale.

"We need to earn money to keep this place open," Selek said with a smile of proud satisfaction on her face.

Amargi takes its name from a Sumerian word meaning freedom and "returning to mother." It aims to unite the experiences of women and academia and to develop feminist analysis and policies at the same time.

“We develop feminist thought and feminist policies through an analysis of current problems and through the organization of seminars and workshops, and by publishing books,” Selek said, emphasizing that Amargi has been active in politics as a cooperative for seven years. In addition to the quarterly Amargi journal that has been published for the past two years, the feminist bookstore is both the outcome and the driving force of the organization's efforts.

“Women were coming to us with essays in their hands, wanting them to be published or just wanting to discuss,” she said. “There were words to be said.”

“For seven years Amargi, both as a cooperative and as a journal, managed to survive without any funds or capital,” Selek said, adding that they opened the bookstore with no funds, either.

“Our readers and volunteers were pushing us, stating the need for such a place, but we did not have any money to realize it. When we said 'okay, let's try it,' we found ourselves painting the walls and cleaning the windows of this place,” she said. “It was a solidarity with our volunteers and supporters as well as the people of the neighborhood.”



Seminar plans

The Amargi bookstore prepares to bring readers, writers and researchers together in one place for the exchange of ideas. Some of the events planned for this month are two seminars on Virginia Woolf's “A room of one's own” and a meeting with poet and writer Neşe Yaşin from Cyprus, whose book “Secret history of sad girls” has been banned.

With many other plans and projects for the new year currently in the pipeline, the first feminist bookstore awaits readers, writers and anyone who believes in the need for feminist theory, and for anyone who needs it.

“Anybody can help us. There are books we are looking for and cannot find. They can send us the books or research they have made. Or at least they can make it a meeting point for their appointments. We will be happy to welcome anyone here,” Selek said, as she asked for confirmation from the customers and volunteers.

Everyone promised that they will welcome and help those who are interested in learning about feminist thought.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=92622

2.       Aslan
1070 posts
 03 Jan 2008 Thu 08:51 pm

Hurra!!! Congratulations, Turkey!

3.       libralady
5152 posts
 07 Jan 2008 Mon 10:59 pm

Quoting Aslan:

Hurra!!! Congratulations, Turkey!



Amargi Woman Academy deserve the congratulations, no? What exactly is feminst literature, anyone have any examples?

4.       bydand
755 posts
 07 Jan 2008 Mon 11:04 pm

Quoting libralady:

Quoting Aslan:

Hurra!!! Congratulations, Turkey!



Amargi Woman Academy deserve the congratulations, no? What exactly is feminst literature, anyone have any examples?



Maybe catwoman can help you

5.       libralady
5152 posts
 07 Jan 2008 Mon 11:08 pm

Quoting bydand:

Quoting libralady:

Quoting Aslan:

Hurra!!! Congratulations, Turkey!



Amargi Woman Academy deserve the congratulations, no? What exactly is feminst literature, anyone have any examples?



Maybe catwoman can help you

Can't say it is anything I have ever come across, or likely to as I would not particulary be looking for it. But on saying that, I do congratulate the women who have opened the bookshop and I hope it is a success. See I do have some heart for feminists

6.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 07 Jan 2008 Mon 11:18 pm

Quoting libralady:

Quoting Aslan:

Hurra!!! Congratulations, Turkey!



Amargi Woman Academy deserve the congratulations, no? What exactly is feminst literature, anyone have any examples?


Kate Chopin"Awakening"good example of American Literature...her talent was shattered by puritans(((((PITY!!!

7.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Jan 2008 Mon 11:33 pm

Quoting bydand:

Maybe catwoman can help you


Hahahah, I'm at your service! Whoever needs to be educated about feminism, don't hesitate to ask!

8.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Jan 2008 Mon 11:36 pm

Quoting libralady:

Can't say it is anything I have ever come across, or likely to as I would not particulary be looking for it. But on saying that, I do congratulate the women who have opened the bookshop and I hope it is a success. See I do have some heart for feminists


What do you mean Libralady? Why aren't you particularly looking for anything of this sort?
I find it a bit offensive when you assure that you have a heart for feminists. It's like saying that you have a heart for anti-racism. :-S

9.       libralady
5152 posts
 07 Jan 2008 Mon 11:42 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting libralady:

Can't say it is anything I have ever come across, or likely to as I would not particulary be looking for it. But on saying that, I do congratulate the women who have opened the bookshop and I hope it is a success. See I do have some heart for feminists


What do you mean Libralady? Why aren't you particularly looking for anything of this sort?
I find it a bit offensive when you assure that you have a heart for feminists. It's like saying that you have a heart for anti-racism. :-S



Tongue in cheek comment!! Some people think I don't care about feminist issues but they are wrong, just because I am not a feminist myself. But I would not necessarily be looking to read anything by a feminist - Germaine Greer puts me off!

10.       Aslan
1070 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 12:02 am

...well, I think that there is a lot of litterature that can be counted into feminist literature, just search the internet and you will find loads - academic, poetry, lyrics, whatever.

I read mostly swedish litterature but one book that I would highly recommend is Blonde by Joyce Carol Oates. It is not a traditional feminist book but it taught me a lot about what it is to be a woman in a western country.

I once had a teacher that explained feminism as being a very broad field...so she used to say that when it comes to the lowest common denominator - a feminist is:
1. a person that sees the structures in the worlds societies that opress women
2. and wants to do something about it! .

...the majority of my class defined themselves as feminists after that...both men and women...

11.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 12:05 am

Quoting libralady:

Tongue in cheek comment!! Some people think I don't care about feminist issues but they are wrong, just because I am not a feminist myself. But I would not necessarily be looking to read anything by a feminist - Germaine Greer puts me off!


What do you mean you're not a feminist? You think that women are not equal to men? Or that women aren't oppressed around the world? :-S

12.       Chantal
587 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 09:15 am

Libra, at our uni we actually have a whole course on feminist literature! . But I think the example they gave in the article is already a good one, Virginia Woolf's 'A Room of One's Own'. At the moment I can't think of any other examples.. :-S hehe

13.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 09:23 am

I can)))
George Sand,Virginia Woolf,sisters Bronte, Jane Ellen Harrison,Kate Millett,Mary MacLane,Rebecca Walker,Simone de Beauvoir,H.D. and many others)) not as significant as previous least but not last...
Not to mention Doris Lessing))))
And the access to the list of feminists in general...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists

14.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 10:20 am

Quoting Aslan:

I read mostly swedish litterature but one book that I would highly recommend is Blonde by Joyce Carol Oates. It is not a traditional feminist book but it taught me a lot about what it is to be a woman in a western country.


Sounds very good! I'm going to read it as soon as I can throw out all the books I'm forced to read now.

15.       ciko
784 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 12:43 pm

i know a big library which only have women books in Fener-İstanbul. its name is 'Women Works Library'.

here its link.

http://www.kadineserleri.org/

16.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 02:49 pm

Ciko, where exactly is this store located in the Fener district? Thanks.

17.       libralady
5152 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 02:55 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting libralady:

Tongue in cheek comment!! Some people think I don't care about feminist issues but they are wrong, just because I am not a feminist myself. But I would not necessarily be looking to read anything by a feminist - Germaine Greer puts me off!


What do you mean you're not a feminist? You think that women are not equal to men? Or that women aren't oppressed around the world? :-S



I agree there are oppressed women around the world, and I also agree with equal rights for men and women, but my view of feminists, is of men hating, bra burning women who prefer to look like men, I was brought up with the idea of feminists in the 60's and 70's and perhaps they are much different now. Maybe my view is narrow, but I don't see myself as a feminist. Does not mean to say I don't agree with the arguments, but sometimes I don't agree with how the arguement is put.

18.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 03:12 pm

Quoting libralady:

I agree there are oppressed women around the world, and I also agree with equal rights for men and women, but my view of feminists, is of men hating, bra burning women who prefer to look like men, I was brought up with the idea of feminists in the 60's and 70's and perhaps they are much different now. Maybe my view is narrow, but I don't see myself as a feminist. Does not mean to say I don't agree with the arguments, but sometimes I don't agree with how the arguement is put.


It is strangely common these days to portray feminists as men-hating, bra-burning, angry women. I have no idea where this is coming from, considering that nobody does that and those who think of feminists this way have never actually seen it (ok, maybe except for you ). I think this is the way patriarchal men discounted feminism and women's issues and created this sick stereotype of feminism as a backlash. For that reason many women are afraid to identify themselves as feminists - not to be portrayed as men-haters.
We don't need to burn bras these days, but it was probably necessary at some point of the movement. Feminism is and has always been about equal rights for men and women and about recognizing that women have been oppressed and still are, even in the west..

Fortunately, there are many women AND MEN who revisit the idea of feminism without bias and stand up for equality.

Here are some nice examples:
feminism, some reason for optimism...
feminism...

19.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 03:45 pm

My preference and support is for "feminine" ladies.
Boooo to all feminists !
I can not care less if they have their own coffee shop or whatever, so long as they keep its doors closed...

20.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 03:52 pm

BEst of luck to these ladies. I know how hard it is to offer a cultural service in this city. MAy they have many successes and manage to stay open a long time.

21.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 04:09 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

My preference and support is for "feminine" ladies.
Boooo to all feminists !
I can not care less if they have their own coffee shop or whatever, so long as they keep its doors closed...


Hahahah, likewise, booooo to all old school, unreformable grandpas (and future grandpa wannabes). I don't care how much money they have, as long as they keep away at least 100 meters.

22.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 04:12 pm

I am very open minded !
Tell me three good reasons why I should prefer and support feminist women over feminine ladies !

23.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 04:20 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

I am very open minded !
Tell me three good reasons why I should prefer and support feminist woman over feminine ladies !



Alpha, I don't understand why the two are mutually exclusive.

Why cannot I be both feminine and a feminist?

feminine
Of or pertaining to a woman, or to women; characteristic of a woman; womanish; womanly.

feminist
advocate of feminism, one who supports total equality between women and men in all areas of life. relating to or advocating equal rights for women

Maybe some who are feminine do not support total equality between women and men. Maybe some who are feminist are men, or women who express their feminism in a non-feminine way. But there are many, many women (Virginia Woolf included) who are at the same time very feminine and total feminsits.



24.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 04:21 pm

Notice the effective intervention by AlphaF, before the disease spreads any further?

25.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 04:24 pm

Equality of men and women is total crap...
Women are definitely superior...Those women yukking about equality or their superiority all the time however, are not attractive..

26.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 04:31 pm

Marion thinks again....

27.       KeithL
1455 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 05:20 pm

Why are some men so afraid of strong women???

28.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 05:22 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Why are some men so afraid of strong women???


+1

Where have you been Keith?!

29.       MrX67
2540 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 05:23 pm

men&women never enemies of each other,so why this -ism at the end of word????look likes to go on a fire with bellows

30.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 05:32 pm

Quoting MrX67:

men&women never enemies of each other,so why this -ism at the end of word????


lol lol lol

31.       MrX67
2540 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 05:39 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting MrX67:

men&women never enemies of each other,so why this -ism at the end of word????


lol lol lol

was it this much funny??? :-S

32.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 05:58 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Why are some men so afraid of strong women???



Why do some people come up with peanut questions?
Other peanuts who applaud this question, should also reply it...

33.       KeithL
1455 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 06:02 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Quoting KeithL:

Why are some men so afraid of strong women???



Why do some people come up with peanut questions?



All the peanuts seem to be in ankara these days...

34.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 06:04 pm

What?...Is there a Feminist meeting in Ankara?

35.       KeithL
1455 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 06:06 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

My preference and support is for "feminine" ladies.
Boooo to all feminists !
I can not care less if they have their own coffee shop or whatever, so long as they keep its doors closed...



I pity men that don't trust their women and feel they must lock them away from the real world. I can only imagine the thought provoking dialogue in your home...

36.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 06:09 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting AlphaF:

My preference and support is for "feminine" ladies.
Boooo to all feminists !
I can not care less if they have their own coffee shop or whatever, so long as they keep its doors closed...



I pity men that don't trust their women and feel they must lock them away from the real world. I can only imagine the thought provoking dialogue in your home...


And look at their failing societies and human rights violations...

37.       portokal
2516 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 06:12 pm

Quoting kafesteki kus:


George Sand,Virginia Woolf,sisters Bronte, Jane Ellen Harrison,Kate Millett,Mary MacLane,Rebecca Walker,Simone de Beauvoir,H.D. and many others)) not as significant as previous least but not last...
Not to mention Doris Lessing))))



i like George Sand and de Beauvoir.

38.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 07:41 pm

Quoting portokal:

Quoting kafesteki kus:


George Sand,Virginia Woolf,sisters Bronte, Jane Ellen Harrison,Kate Millett,Mary MacLane,Rebecca Walker,Simone de Beauvoir,H.D. and many others)) not as significant as previous least but not last...
Not to mention Doris Lessing))))



i like George Sand and de Beauvoir.


Me too,especially George Sand.Her love affair with Frederic Chopin was just breathtaking,he was love of her life and vice versa..Quite unusual for a feminist))))

39.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 07:51 pm

You are talking to a man who has already said women are superior to men and that their fight for equality is stupid.

....and I pity the men who think feminine women are weak !
They have absolutely no clue !

40.       Aslan
1070 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 07:54 pm

Alpha F, tell me you are just kidding! :-S

I think you love strong feminist women!


41.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 08:02 pm

I may, but not necessarily....

42.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 08:05 pm

I honestly think that women who hit the streets screaming for equality with men are the retarded ones - not aware of their natural superiority and not smart enough to manage men around them, using this gift of nature.

If you stop using the words "women"and "feminist" as if they are the same, you will understand what I mean...

43.       Aslan
1070 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 08:09 pm

...you disappoint me, Alpha F...

44.       xkirstyx
363 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 08:10 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

I honestly think that women who hit the streets screaming for equality with men are the retarded ones - not aware of their natural superiority and not smart enough to manage men around them, using this gift of nature.



retarded ones?? Did you honestly just say that?!? You think that women and men all have equal rights? And the only women who have a problem with it are not able to 'manage' men?!?! WOW. This HAS to be a sarcastic post!

45.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 08:33 pm

I have very mixed feelings regarding current day "femminism". I feel real feminism has been lost in the march.

Women who want to do traditional female roles, such as: being homemakers are made fun of. Women who want to spend time with their children, instead of pursueing careers are looked down on. Children are raised by those who do it for profit, not deeper motives. What we have now are ready made meals that are not made for their nutritional value, but for the profit motive.

Something is wrong here IMHO. Just what does it mean to be a woman? I have no question as to the equality of males and females. I do think this is going terribly wrong now.

It is interesting to note, some of the most influential women in the 20th century were women who were opposed to femminism. They are: Gertrude Bell and Freya Stark

Edited to add another influential woman:

Role of La Malinche in the Conquest of Mexico

In the Lienzo de Tlaxcala (History of Tlaxcala), for example, not only is Cortés rarely portrayed without Malinche poised by his ear, but she is shown at times on her own, seemingly directing events as an independent authority. If she had been trained for court life, as in Díaz's account, her loyalty to Cortés may have been dictated by the familiar pattern of marriage among native elite classes. In the role of primary wife acquired through an alliance, her role would have been to assist her husband achieve his military and diplomatic objectives.

I am, of course, expecting massive flames....

46.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 09:33 pm

Alameda, nice you bring up Tlaxcala.Old memories for me: Have a look at the historical murals:
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3DTlaxcala%2520murales%26fr2%3Dtab-web%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501&w=500&h=375&imgurl=static.flickr.com%2F91%2F232453983_86fbe2acbb_m.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fronandcatie%2F232453983%2F&size=156.9kB&name=232453983_86fbe2acbb.jpg&p=Tlaxcala+murales&type=jpeg&no=5&tt=40&oid=0a83d2db5f378f94&fusr=Catie+Thurber-Brown&tit=Tlaxcala_Murales_Palacio+Municipal_2&hurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fronandcatie%2F&ei=UTF-8&src=p
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/jan2003.html

47.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 09:55 pm

Quoting alameda:

I have very mixed feelings regarding current day "femminism". I feel real feminism has been lost in the march.

Women who want to do traditional female roles, such as: being homemakers are made fun of. Women who want to spend time with their children, instead of pursueing careers are looked down on. Children are raised by those who do it for profit, not deeper motives. What we have now are ready made meals that are not made for their nutritional value, but for the profit motive.

Something is wrong here IMHO. Just what does it mean to be a woman? I have no question as to the equality of males and females. I do think this is going terribly wrong now.

It is interesting to note, some of the most influential women in the 20th century were women who were opposed to femminism. They are: Gertrude Bell and Freya Stark

Edited to add another influential woman:

Role of La Malinche in the Conquest of Mexico

In the Lienzo de Tlaxcala (History of Tlaxcala), for example, not only is Cortés rarely portrayed without Malinche poised by his ear, but she is shown at times on her own, seemingly directing events as an independent authority. If she had been trained for court life, as in Díaz's account, her loyalty to Cortés may have been dictated by the familiar pattern of marriage among native elite classes. In the role of primary wife acquired through an alliance, her role would have been to assist her husband achieve his military and diplomatic objectives.

I am, of course, expecting massive flames....


I wouldn´t say that women who prefer being housewives are being laughed at.Feminism today definately changes its direction..no more burning bras or fighting for a right to vote,or just only to be heard.It considers more social issues and awareness .Or gives prompts how to demand rights.Rights to decide about your own lot,your choices ,your life.
Personally,although I tend to support feminist`s way of thinking ...do not worry(I do not hate men)I wouldn´t like an equality as far as performing jobs goes.Such equality as it used to be in former Soviet Union where women worked as miners,tractor drivers,etc..in the name of happy comunism and brotherhood of all.In that case..thank you)))
no way...I can forget equality
But as far my social rights go,I will stand for them.
Any women can be happy the way she is...if she is happy by herself not because of the role she has been given.
And of course I agree that there were so many women¨the necks¨assisting and supporting their men .BTW Cortez was not handsome and not good at all,so a woman from your example Alameda has my respect )))
Anyway,instead of preparing classes and concentrating on the past tenses I am writing about feminism.If my boss fires me....
no flames
just smile for another woman who dares to speak up her mind)))))

48.       Aslan
1070 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 09:58 pm

Quoting alameda:

I have very mixed feelings regarding current day "femminism". I feel real feminism has been lost in the march.



Is that so? Well, what is real feminism to you?

Quoting alameda:

Women who want to do traditional female roles, such as: being homemakers are made fun of. Women who want to spend time with their children, instead of pursueing careers are looked down on. Children are raised by those who do it for profit, not deeper motives. What we have now are ready made meals that are not made for their nutritional value, but for the profit motive.

Something is wrong here IMHO. Just what does it mean to be a woman? I have no question as to the equality of males and females. I do think this is going terribly wrong now.



So what is the solution to what is going terribly wrong now in your opinion? Equality of males and females or the women back to being homemakers, raising kids and cooking? I am not arguing with you here - I try to understand what is your point... :-S

49.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 10:03 pm

Quoting Aslan:

Quoting alameda:

I have very mixed feelings regarding current day "femminism". I feel real feminism has been lost in the march.



Is that so? Well, what is real feminism to you?

Quoting alameda:

Women who want to do traditional female roles, such as: being homemakers are made fun of. Women who want to spend time with their children, instead of pursueing careers are looked down on. Children are raised by those who do it for profit, not deeper motives. What we have now are ready made meals that are not made for their nutritional value, but for the profit motive.

Something is wrong here IMHO. Just what does it mean to be a woman? I have no question as to the equality of males and females. I do think this is going terribly wrong now.



So what is the solution to what is going terribly wrong now in your opinion? Equality of males and females or the women back to being homemakers, raising kids and cooking? I am not arguing with you here - I try to understand what is your point... :-S


so do I..I really try to understand

50.       xkirstyx
363 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 10:20 pm

I think the point being made is that it hasn't really balanced out in certain areas. We own 5 shops, my husband and I. Altough the businesses are owned 50/50, He does the more physical work in the shops, while I do the books etc at home. I prefer to be home keeping the house nice and looking after my son. So many people think I am being made to stay at home because my husband is Turkish. Or that I am not really 'meeting my potential' by working more at home. When actually, I feel I am. I shouldn't be made to feel like I'm 'copping out' because I chose to stay home. The point of having equal rights is so that we do have choices isn't it?

51.       Aslan
1070 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 10:44 pm

Quoting xkirstyx:

I think the point being made is that it hasn't really balanced out in certain areas. We own 5 shops, my husband and I. Altough the businesses are owned 50/50, He does the more physical work in the shops, while I do the books etc at home. I prefer to be home keeping the house nice and looking after my son. So many people think I am being made to stay at home because my husband is Turkish. Or that I am not really 'meeting my potential' by working more at home. When actually, I feel I am. I shouldn't be made to feel like I'm 'copping out' because I chose to stay home. The point of having equal rights is so that we do have choices isn't it?



I don´t know if that was the point Alameda was trying to make... ...but I get your point, xkirstyx. I agree that having equal rights is about having the same choices and be free to choose.
But I also think that there are more complexity to add to the subject. When we make our free choices - how free are those choices? How tied to cultural expectations or the time trends are our choices? I am not really arguing with you about your individual case but in general. I.e. I am swedish and we have paternity leave for a year when having kids. The year is to be shared between the parents but the couple can choose how to use it except for a couple of months that are reserved for each of the parent and can´t be shared. So both parents are free to choose, right, but mainly the mother takes the majority of days... Why is that? On an individual basis we can find many reasons, but if we look at it on a group level we will see that there are reasons due to the structures in society that make women and men choose like this. I don´t know if I make myself clear. I am not arguing against you, only sharing one perspective of the topic that interests me.

52.       xkirstyx
363 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 11:21 pm

As far as women looking after the children more, I think some things society and laws cannot change. I believe men and women are built differently genetically. For example, men are generally stronger physically, women can be more nurturing and of course each sex has more qualities, I am just using these as examples. Since I gave birth to my son I have been grateful to be a woman. To have had the experience of pregnancy, and giving birth. Even feeding him from my own body! There is a bond there from these experiences that is amazing. And women naturally have the maternal instincts ( most of them anyway lol). Men and women are different, and using these differences , such as women spending more time looking after child, or the man opening the lid of the jar of jam that is stuck on, are a natural good use of using the differences, I don't think it is necessarily being sexist.

53.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 11:51 pm

Aslan, kafesteki kus and xkirstyx,

What the answer is, I don't know, but I'm looking.

I'm still going through the reevaluation of just what it means to be a "liberated" woman. I try to look at life and what it offers in a realistic and practical manner.

After all the purpose of working is to be able to afford to purchase what you need to live. We work to live, not live to work.

In living our lives we have an outer and an inner. Bread winning (to me) is part of the "outer", that has a fixed value. Making the bread is part of the inner. IOW someone has to care about the home and make it healthy for body and soul. That is something that is priceless.
Of course you can hire a nanny, cook and maid, but do they really care about your well being, or is it a for wages position for them? If your child spends hours with someone who only is interested in the wages, but spends hours with your child, what does that teach your child?

I've seen nannies with their charges during the day. The children, while not abused, are not really being cared for. They are pushed around in their strollers, sometimes parked while the nannies visit with their friends. The nanny leaves and they get another one. Many times the children learn the language and accent of the nanny before learning the parents language. I question the value of that situation. I want my children to learn my values and language, not those of someone else. I would want to see my child's first steps, hear their first words and be active in the development.

Preparation of healthy meals entails researching the nutritional values and food combination effects and using the best cooking methods (no microwave)so as to retain the food values. It isn't fast and easy. There are a lot of simple home remedies women used to use. Most have been forgotten. An example: a little bit of vinegar or baking soda in a glass of water is great for indigestion. Now we get antacids instead. An eyewash of tea is an excellent eyewash.

My grandmother had her own home based business. Her business was run in such a way that it didn't interfere with her family. I think what we now have is women being put into a mold that doesn't fit very well. Maybe it's time to take another look.

Certainly, every female should be educated, should be able to be self supporting, should know how to defend herself.

54.       xkirstyx
363 posts
 08 Jan 2008 Tue 11:56 pm

Quoting alameda:



(no microwave)



.....lol

55.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 12:14 am

so true, Alameda! Excellent reply.

56.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 12:22 am

Quoting xkirstyx:

Quoting alameda:



(no microwave)



.....lol



microwave

"How do microwave ovens work?

In a microwave oven, food is cooked by exposing it to microwave radiation."

The above statement, and article it is from, do not make me comfortable with being around, or preparing my food in a microwave oven.

Just my choice...

57.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 12:30 am

Quoting xkirstyx:

I think the point being made is that it hasn't really balanced out in certain areas. We own 5 shops, my husband and I. Altough the businesses are owned 50/50, He does the more physical work in the shops, while I do the books etc at home. I prefer to be home keeping the house nice and looking after my son. So many people think I am being made to stay at home because my husband is Turkish. Or that I am not really 'meeting my potential' by working more at home. When actually, I feel I am. I shouldn't be made to feel like I'm 'copping out' because I chose to stay home. The point of having equal rights is so that we do have choices isn't it?



Right! And you should not feel you have copped out. Doing the books at home is something I would go crazy doing. You should not devalue your contribution one bit. It sounds to me like you ARE pursuing your potential.

58.       xkirstyx
363 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 12:35 am

Thankyou

59.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 12:40 am

To debate whether or not men and women should be equal, let us strip the issue from superfuluous add-ons like politics, human rights, equal opportunity, morality, discrimination etc. and look at the issue in its basic form. Just man and woman.

Cavewoman gives his caveman a cavebaby. She is temporarily immobile for obvious reasons. Caveman goes out to hunt and collect wood for cavewoman and cavebaby. Sometimes he has to wander for miles.

After days of hunting and collecting wood, caveman is tired, bruised and spent out. On the way back, another cavewoman waves a friendly welcoming hand. She looks stunning and is obviously not immobile. Her cave looks very promising and eliminates a further 2-days walk.

The fact that many of us are around today is proof enough that many of the cavemen did not yield to such temptations and found his way back to his own cavewoman and his own cavebaby. He knew fully that he would not find a heated cave, ready food, a mobile cavewoman or a silent cavebaby.

What quality of his own cavewoman, do you think, drives our caveman to his own cave? What would happen if all cavemen stopped by the first new cavewoman beckoning him? Do you think the caveman would ever return to his home cave, if the waiting cavewoman there was a screaming feminist?

God bless the feminine women !


60.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 12:44 am

Quoting AlphaF:

To debate whether or not men and women should be equal, let us strip the issue from superfuluous add-ons like politics, human rights, equal opportunity, morality, discrimination etc. and look at the issue in its basic form. Just man an woman.

Cavewoman gives his caveman a cavebaby. She is temporarily immobile for obvious reasons. Caveman goes out to hunt and collect wood for cavewoman and cavebaby. Sometimes he has to wander for miles.

After days of hunting and collecting wood, caveman is tired, bruised and spent out. On the way back, another cavewoman waves a friendly welcoming hand. She looks stunning and obviously not immobile. Her cave looks very promising and and eliminates a further 2-days walk.

The fact that many of us are around today is proof enough that many of the cavemen did not yield to such temptations and found his way back to his own cavewoman and his own cavebaby. He knew fully that he would not find a heated cave, ready food, a mobile cavewoman or a silent cavebaby.

What quality of his own cavewoman, do you think, drives our caveman to his own cave? What would happen if all cavemen stopped by the first new cavewoman beckoning him. Do you think the caveman would ever return to his home cave, if the waiting cavewoman there was a screaming feminist?


lol lol lol lol

61.       Aslan
1070 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 01:09 am

Quoting AlphaF:

Quoting Aslan:

...you disappoint me, Alpha F...



Boy !....Peanut brains make me laugh.


I told you that our old Eraser was not fast enough: I had already read the original message...Not that it makes any difference !



The original message referred to your prior post...but as you were so fast to post another one that came between your posting and my comment I had to change it because otherwise it would completely lose its meaning.

I am not used to being called names as peanut brain, when I discuss something, Alpha F. Calling me a peanut brain is not an argument, it is just low. Yet again you disappoint me and to me that ends the discussion.

62.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 01:12 am

I already said...IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE!
You are forgiven..

PS: Sorry for blaming the Eraser for this undignified affair.

63.       christine
443 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 01:42 am

Quoting AlphaF:

What would happen if all cavemen stopped by the first new cavewoman beckoning him?



What would happen if he stopped!!!!! He just just go back his cavewoman and cavebaby and act as if nothing had happen. The poor cavewoman at home would not know any diffence would she????

64.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 01:49 am

Quoting christine:

Quoting AlphaF:

What would happen if all cavemen stopped by the first new cavewoman beckoning him?



What would happen if he stopped!!!!! He just just go back his cavewoman and cavebaby and act as if nothing had happen. The poor cavewoman at home would not know any diffence would she????



Unless she got some sort of dis ease....that is...then she would probably just blame herself...Then maybe she would notice a new smell?

Actually, I think those guys kept a stable...so to speak.

65.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 01:58 am

A stable of Feminist woman?...Is that the final offer?
Still, no !

66.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 02:10 am

Quoting christine:

Quoting AlphaF:

What would happen if all cavemen stopped by the first new cavewoman beckoning him?



What would happen if he stopped!!!!! He just just go back his cavewoman and cavebaby and act as if nothing had happen. The poor cavewoman at home would not know any diffence would she????



She would definitely know the difference if caveman was delayed for 3 days, or never returned - Unless feminists delivered hot pizzaz in his absence.)))))))))

67.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 02:16 am

Quoting AlphaF:

A stable of Feminist woman?...Is that the final offer?
Still, no !



Dream on...

68.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 02:26 am

There is no dreaming with feminist women....One always knows what is coming !

69.       KeithL
1455 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:44 am

Quoting christine:

Quoting AlphaF:

What would happen if all cavemen stopped by the first new cavewoman beckoning him?



What would happen if he stopped!!!!! He just just go back his cavewoman and cavebaby and act as if nothing had happen. The poor cavewoman at home would not know any diffence would she????



Cavebaby??? please. he is a 70 year old man that life and time has passed by. All he has left now is his bitterness on life and a wife that learned to ignore him years ago. Maybe we should do the same to him...

70.       catwoman
8933 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:49 am

Quoting KeithL:

Cavebaby??? please. he is a 70 year old man that life and time has passed by. All he has left now is his bitterness on life and a wife that learned to ignore him years ago. Maybe we should do the same to him...


+infinity

71.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 02:02 pm

I'm not an expert on cavemen, although I can swear I meet quite a few. No, I'm not THAT old. Anyway, wasn't it all about procreation in the past? About conveying genetic material, making as many combinations as possible to ensure the existence of species? No religions telling cavemen that cavewomen should wear scarves and cavemen should be faithful to only one cavewoman. If I'm not mistaken, cavemen went hunting but wouldn't come back home (cave?) with a yummy chubby mammoth. Actually, it was a cavewoman's job to provide food for herself and her numerous children while cavemen were away. So, frankly speaking, cavewomen didn't neen a cavemen to provide food for her. She needed him to fertilize her. So, Alpha, with all due respect, I don't really think she cared whether he returned home or not, there always was another one passing by and owning potentially better genes...

72.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:04 pm

You are wrong...

If you are familiar with horse ranches, you should know that champion mares are not in the habit of giving favors to all passing by stallions.

In fact new champions are never obtained by cross breeding champion mares with champion stallions.

What they do is they let the mare chose her own mate, not necessarily from amongst the champion stallions; she has the nose for it.

73.       portokal
2516 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:12 pm

At breakfast tea a beloved asked her lover,
would you lend me over the sugar please?

74.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:24 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

You are wrong...

If you are familiar with horse ranches, you should know that champion mares are not in the habit of giving favors to all passing by stallions.

In fact new champions are never obtained by cross breeding champion mares with champion stallions.

What they do is they let the mare chose her own mate, not necessarily from amongst the champion stallions; she has the nose for it.



You seem to know an awful lot about this Alpha,are you sure there isnt something your not telling us!?

75.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:40 pm

What exactly do you need to be lectured on, Sera dear? ))))))))))))))) stallions ?

76.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:42 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

What exactly do you need to be lectured on, Sera dear? ))))))))))))))) stallions ?



Certainly not that thanks, especially if your the lecturer!

77.       KeithL
1455 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:43 pm

What would a gelding possibly know about stallions?????

78.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:46 pm

Quoting KeithL:

What would a gelding possibly know about stallions?????



Yes well there is that!

79.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 03:56 pm

Never mind Keith, Sera...He has nothing bigger than a peanut..

80.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 04:09 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Never mind Keith, Sera...He has nothing bigger than a peanut..



Me thinks you protest too much!

81.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 04:11 pm

Only when white man talks with a forked tongue....

82.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 04:14 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Only when white man talks with a forked tongue....



What has ethnicity got to do with anything.

83.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 04:16 pm

What are you talking about?

84.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 04:19 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

What are you talking about?



You know what i am talking about.Read the posts.

85.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 04:33 pm

It is only natural, I go back to Cheyenne, when I am angry ))))))) It has nothing to do with ethnicity...

86.       KeithL
1455 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:04 pm

don't tarnish the honor of the american indian with your phoney affiliation....

87.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:08 pm

Quoting KeithL:

don't tarnish the honor of the american indian with your phoney affiliation....



I wouldnt worry about it Keith he just talks rubbish most of the time.

88.       KeithL
1455 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:13 pm

Of course he does, but if rubbish is left to sit and rot for too long, the stench is overbearing. So it needs to be taken away and burned....

89.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:17 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Of course he does, but if rubbish is left to sit and rot for too long, the stench is overbearing. So it needs to be taken away and burned....



Be my guest.

90.       portokal
2516 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:17 pm

outside the cave, please.))

91.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:21 pm

Did any one notice not one single original opinion comes from Keith ?....
Sure sign of a peanut brain.

Are you two peanuts threatening me? Go ahead !

92.       portokal
2516 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:23 pm

hunting might not have been going very good today?
it happens....
and vegetarian dishes are good for health.

93.       KeithL
1455 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:26 pm

old man....don't get your heart worked up so....
you are only angry because your youth has left you like so many people have also left you I'm sure....

94.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:26 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Did any one notice not one single original opinion comes from Keith ?....
Sure sign of a peanut brain.

Are you two peanuts threatening me? Go ahead !



I obviously can't speak for Keith but i am not doing anything of the sort.It seems you like dishing things out but not receiving them back in return.Maybe you should check you don't have a peanut in your head.

95.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 05:27 pm

Quoting portokal:

hunting might not have been going very good today?
it happens....
and vegetarian dishes are good for health.


ve ve
There might be hunting ban on certain species!!

96.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 06:32 pm

Careful KeithL....if you are lucky enough, you may one day be an "old" man yourself...I beg you then, look back at your words.

Anyway, personal attacks based on people's "perceived" age, gender ect. and such are really below the belt, and not really an honorable way to win a debate

Quoting KeithL:

old man....don't get your heart worked up so....
you are only angry because your youth has left you like so many people have also left you I'm sure....



97.       KeithL
1455 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 06:40 pm

sure I will be old....but I will be amca...not moruk...

98.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 07:00 pm

Quoting KeithL:

sure I will be old....but I will be amca...not moruk...



Well, I hope you get that chance...whatever you become, let's hope you ARE around....and healthy in mind, body and spirit....

99.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 07:08 pm

Quoting KeithL:

sure I will be old....but I will be amca...not moruk...


I am sorry to butt in, but what is this?

I wish you know a bit more of Turkish Culture than the Turkish language.

This is RUDE man!!

100.       KeithL
1455 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 07:32 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting KeithL:

sure I will be old....but I will be amca...not moruk...


I am sorry to butt in, but what is this?

I wish you know a bit more of Turkish Culture than the Turkish language.

This is RUDE man!!



Yes...it is rude. Purposely rude. This man is rude to everyone....

101.       SERA_2005
668 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 07:39 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting KeithL:

sure I will be old....but I will be amca...not moruk...


I am sorry to butt in, but what is this?

I wish you know a bit more of Turkish Culture than the Turkish language.

This is RUDE man!!



Yes...it is rude. Purposely rude. This man is rude to everyone....



I agree.

102.       christine
443 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 08:41 pm

Quoting SERA_2005:

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting KeithL:

sure I will be old....but I will be amca...not moruk...


I am sorry to butt in, but what is this?

I wish you know a bit more of Turkish Culture than the Turkish language.

This is RUDE man!!



Yes...it is rude. Purposely rude. This man is rude to everyone....



I agree.



+ 1

103.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 10:12 pm

Rude only to peanuts, girls!

104.       catwoman
8933 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 10:28 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Rude only to peanuts, girls!


Same here, peanut!

105.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 09 Jan 2008 Wed 10:40 pm

I accept the flowers....

106.       alameda
3499 posts
 10 Jan 2008 Thu 07:17 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

Rude only to peanuts, girls!



What is this thing about peanuts. The peanut is a noble legume that was cultivated by the Amerindians.

"Cultivation spread as far as Mesoamerica where the Spanish conquistadors found the tlalcacahuatl (Nahuatl="earth cacao"=peanut, whence Mexican Spanish, cacahuate and French, cacahuète) being offered for sale in the marketplace of Tenochtitlan (Mexico City)."Peanut

107.       catwoman
8933 posts
 11 Jan 2008 Fri 01:23 am

Quoting alameda:

Quoting AlphaF:

Rude only to peanuts, girls!



What is this thing about peanuts. The peanut is a noble legume that was cultivated by the Amerindians.

"Cultivation spread as far as Mesoamerica where the Spanish conquistadors found the tlalcacahuatl (Nahuatl="earth cacao"=peanut, whence Mexican Spanish, cacahuate and French, cacahuète) being offered for sale in the marketplace of Tenochtitlan (Mexico City)."Peanut


How come, our TC policewoman, don't you jump on alpha for insulting everybody at every occasion and calling them peanuts/peanut brains??? You really don't understand what it means? :-S Instead, you give some stupid explanation of what peanut cultivation is! lol So double faced.

108.       alameda
3499 posts
 11 Jan 2008 Fri 02:05 am

Quoting catwoman:

.............How come, our TC policewoman, don't you jump on alpha for insulting everybody at every occasion and calling them peanuts/peanut brains??? You really don't understand what it means? :-S Instead, you give some stupid explanation of what peanut cultivation is! lol So double faced.



Sometimes existential humor is difficult to get. Excuse me for that. Perhaps it should have been more obvious. I was defending the noble peanut. Why should being called a peanut be considered an insult? Why should anyone get so upset about being called a peanut. Wasn't Peanuts one of the most popular characters in the history of comics?

Also, I posted the link for AlphaF to show him, (who purports to love the American Indian), peanuts are one of their contributions to the world.

109.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 11 Jan 2008 Fri 04:59 am

Quoting alameda:


Sometimes existential humor is difficult to get. Excuse me for that. Perhaps it should have been more obvious. I was defending the noble peanut. Why should being called a peanut be considered an insult? Why should anyone get so upset about being called a peanut. Wasn't Peanuts one of the most popular characters in the history of comics?

Also, I posted the link for AlphaF to show him, (who purports to love the American Indian), peanuts are one of their contributions to the world.


In other words cat...you are not intelligent enough to understand alameda's high level of with and humor.
You are not smart and I can't read.
Should start a new gang? We can call it 'Women Who Alameda is Condescending To'...WWACT....or we could just say 'Whacked'!

110.       catwoman
8933 posts
 11 Jan 2008 Fri 06:47 am

Quoting girleegirl:

In other words cat...you are not intelligent enough to understand alameda's high level of with and humor.
You are not smart and I can't read.
Should start a new gang? We can call it 'Women Who Alameda is Condescending To'...WWACT....or we could just say 'Whacked'!


That's probably what she thinks, but I blame it on her poor communication skills and a horrible sense of humor... lol lol lol
Still, such a double standard who she attacks for being rude, it's almost beautiful! She's always defending alfa, no matter how racist, condescending, arrogant, mysogynistic he is. They must be in a gang of their own.

111.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 11 Jan 2008 Fri 07:04 am

112.       Aslan
1070 posts
 11 Jan 2008 Fri 07:01 pm


Quoting catwoman:

Quoting girleegirl:

In other words cat...you are not intelligent enough to understand alameda's high level of with and humor.
You are not smart and I can't read.
Should start a new gang? We can call it 'Women Who Alameda is Condescending To'...WWACT....or we could just say 'Whacked'!


That's probably what she thinks, but I blame it on her poor communication skills and a horrible sense of humor... lol lol lol
Still, such a double standard who she attacks for being rude, it's almost beautiful! She's always defending alfa, no matter how racist, condescending, arrogant, mysogynistic he is. They must be in a gang of their own.



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