General/Off-topic |
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Divine Plan
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| 1. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 11:59 am |
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A friend of mine believes that the universe is created according to a divine plan, where everyting works in clockwork accuracy.
When he notices something that looks like a contradiction or someting hard to explain in this clockwork system, he enjoys thinking about the issue - trying to discover the divine truth behind such apparent dicrepancies.
Having observed that sexual maturity in both genders are reached approximately at ages 12-14, and yet full physical maturity in both sexes are delayed until age of 20, he is now curious whether this order should actually have been the opposite..ie. physical maturity coming before the sexual maturity - or at least simultaneously.
Any contributions to ease my friend's mind?
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| 2. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 12:03 pm |
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Does your friend have nothing else to do?????? 
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| 3. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 12:10 pm |
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Alpha is shouting again???well peanut crackers usually produce loud sounds  
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| 4. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 12:29 pm |
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But what does your "friend" think about mental maturity? 
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| 5. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 12:44 pm |
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I am afraid nothing can ease your friend's mind pdr  Your friend's observation only proves that NOTHING on this earth is a divine plan.
Does he/she also believe that wars, famine, cruelty and injustice are part of a divine plan too? 
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| 6. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 12:58 pm |
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Thank you for your decent and intelligent contribution partner...You may be right !
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| 7. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:05 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Does he/she also believe that wars, famine, cruelty and injustice are part of a divine plan too? |
These things are punishment from god for bad behavior. Or, they can also be tests. It's all very well thought through, we may just not comprehend it, who are we after all to understand god's divine plan? 
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| 8. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:06 pm |
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Aenigma, chinese do believe that negative feelings have their reflection in calamities...
Unfortunately i do not remember now the feelings asociated with calamities, but the general idea was that everything is interconnected, negative thoughts will have their impact on nature. For eg. feeling of envy causes floods.
PS i love that sweet little guy with the joint 
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| 9. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:09 pm |
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I think that people who believe that everything is a "divine plan" are prone to resignation when things go wrong and accepting defeat as "fate" instead of being strong and fighting to change things.
If they are especially religious, they are also in danger of believing that ill things that happen to them are punishment...
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| 10. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:10 pm |
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It is sometimes hard to understand all divine laws...But there is no harm in trying to understand them...
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| 11. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:10 pm |
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Quoting portokal: Aenigma, chinese do believe that negative feelings have their reflection in calamities...
Unfortunately i do not remember now the feelings asociated with calamities, but the general idea was that everything is interconnected, negative thoughts will have their impact on nature. For eg. feeling of envy causes floods.
PS i love that sweet little guy with the joint |
and i remeber that as the teacher of tai chi said it while there were inundations in the nearby the village camp we were to practice.
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| 12. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:12 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: I think that people who believe that everything is a "divine plan" are prone to resignation when things go wrong and accepting defeat as "fate" instead of being strong and fighting to change things.
If they are especially religious, they are also in danger of believing that ill things that happen to them are punishment... |
"Divine plan" and "fate" are two different concepts partner...I can not understand either...
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| 13. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:13 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF: "Divine plan" and "fate" are two different concepts partner... |
There are really not different at all
One involves religion, the other does not necessarily
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| 14. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:14 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: I think that people who believe that everything is a "divine plan" are prone to resignation when things go wrong and accepting defeat as "fate" instead of being strong and fighting to change things.
If they are especially religious, they are also in danger of believing that ill things that happen to them are punishment... |
punishment is the unsificiency of a religion.
a big trap of torture.
it might be punishment because of duality.
but what is happening to us is a lesson. to learn, to remember and ... desirably not to forget.
strenght is basic.
what gives you strenght?
tricky question.
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| 15. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:17 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting AlphaF: "Divine plan" and "fate" are two different concepts partner... |
There are really not different at all
One involves religion, the other does not necessarily |
"Divine plan"is more like macroeconomics, while the latter is at relatively micro level.
There are further finer points associated with "fate", ie., "free will", which makes the whole thing even more confusing...
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| 16. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:21 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF: "Divine plan"is more like macroeconomics, while the latter is at relatively micro level.
There are further finer points associated with "fate", ie., "free will", which makes the whole thing even more confusing... |
I agree, but they are similar concepts no? Anyway, this is more of a "dinner party" discussion! You pay, and I will order the lobster 
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| 17. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:27 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: I think that people who believe that everything is a "divine plan" are prone to resignation when things go wrong and accepting defeat as "fate" instead of being strong and fighting to change things.
If they are especially religious, they are also in danger of believing that ill things that happen to them are punishment... |
And there are those who believe in the power of prayer, often to give them the strength to fight.
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| 18. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:27 pm |
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Goes fantastic, with a bottle of Raki...!
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| 19. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:28 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF: Goes fantastic, with a bottle of Raki...! |
Yuck - you Turks are heathens!!! It does NOT go with raki - it goes well with a dry white wine or champagne. Please feel free to pass the raki bottle around after the meal though
(I hope your "friend" is coming too? )
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| 20. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:31 pm |
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What I think is that all living species, including humans, are not important at all...The whole thing is a cover up for something fishy..that is going on behind the scenes, us totally unaware...Religions may well be screens designed to limit our awareness.
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| 21. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:31 pm |
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I am reading the posts in sequence. prayer and raki?
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| 22. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:35 pm |
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Quoting peace train: I am reading the posts in sequence. prayer and raki? |
Well, then they confused the sequence. It's
1. raki
2. prayer
That's how it normally goes.
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| 23. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:37 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: I am reading the posts in sequence. prayer and raki? |
Well, then they confused the sequence. It's
1. raki
2. prayer
That's how it normally goes. |
The order (sequence) does not matter...
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| 24. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:40 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF: It is sometimes hard to understand all divine laws...But there is no harm in trying to understand them... |
quoting Portokal
Aenigma, chinese do believe that negative feelings have their reflection in calamities...
Unfortunately i do not remember now the feelings asociated with calamities, but the general idea was that everything is interconnected, negative thoughts will have their impact on nature. For eg. feeling of envy causes floods.
PS i love that sweet little guy with the joint
end of quote
It is sometimes hard to understand the fluctuation in Portokal's command of english . . . but there is no harm in trying to understand it . . .
thanks Alfalfa 
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| 25. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:41 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF: Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: I am reading the posts in sequence. prayer and raki? |
Well, then they confused the sequence. It's
1. raki
2. prayer
That's how it normally goes. |
The order (sequence) does not matter... |
Oh, then your god is nicer 
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| 26. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:45 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Quoting AlphaF: It is sometimes hard to understand all divine laws...But there is no harm in trying to understand them... |
quoting Portokal
Aenigma, chinese do believe that negative feelings have their reflection in calamities...
Unfortunately i do not remember now the feelings asociated with calamities, but the general idea was that everything is interconnected, negative thoughts will have their impact on nature. For eg. feeling of envy causes floods.
PS i love that sweet little guy with the joint
end of quote
It is sometimes hard to understand the fluctuation in Portokal's command of english . . . but there is no harm in trying to understand it . . .
thanks Alfalfa
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| 27. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:49 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Quoting AlphaF: It is sometimes hard to understand all divine laws...But there is no harm in trying to understand them... |
It is sometimes hard to understand the fluctuation in Portokal's command of english . . . but there is no harm in trying to understand it . . .
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thank you.
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| 28. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 01:55 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Quoting AEnigma III: I think that people who believe that everything is a "divine plan" are prone to resignation when things go wrong and accepting defeat as "fate" instead of being strong and fighting to change things.
If they are especially religious, they are also in danger of believing that ill things that happen to them are punishment... |
And there are those who believe in the power of prayer, often to give them the strength to fight. |
What fight is this? A fight with likes of me?
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| 29. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 02:03 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF: Quoting peace train: Quoting AEnigma III: I think that people who believe that everything is a "divine plan" are prone to resignation when things go wrong and accepting defeat as "fate" instead of being strong and fighting to change things.
If they are especially religious, they are also in danger of believing that ill things that happen to them are punishment... |
And there are those who believe in the power of prayer, often to give them the strength to fight. |
What fight is this? A fight with likes of me? |
Whatever fight AEnigma was referring to
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| 30. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 02:06 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF:
What fight is this? A fight with likes of me? |
what are you like ?
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| 31. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 02:11 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Quoting AlphaF:
What fight is this? A fight with likes of me? |
what are you like ? |
This is a philosophical discussion peace train. Do not bother posting messages that does not contribute anything..
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| 32. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 02:15 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF: Quoting peace train: Quoting AlphaF:
What fight is this? A fight with likes of me? |
what are you like ? |
This is a philosophical discussion peace train. Do not bother posting messages that does not contribute anything.. |
You asked me a question and I can't answer until I know what you are like. Are you saying you are philosophical? And you never answered my question about mental development. I think it was a valid question as you had mentione physical and sexual development.
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| 33. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 02:25 pm |
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I do not claim to know everyting....But if you are sincere and patient, people here can explore different avenues.
That you are not aware of a reply to your query should not cause any despair. Somebody more knowledgeble can answer it very soon, in clearer terms.
Actually, my own answer is in one my posts, you missed it !
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| 34. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 02:41 pm |
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I spent a few years delving into philosophy and have reached the conclusion that such introspection and life-theories, whilst very interesting, lead nowhere and could actually drive you to madness!!!
I do wonder how the religious can read Plato, for example, and be able to see past their own beliefs...
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| 35. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 02:46 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III:
I do wonder how the religious can read Plato, for example, and be able to see past their own beliefs... |
can you gimme more details? for example..what doctrines of Plato could be against Islam or Islamic beliefs?
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| 36. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 02:53 pm |
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Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III:
I do wonder how the religious can read Plato, for example, and be able to see past their own beliefs... |
can you gimme more details? for example..what doctrines of Plato could be against Islam or Islamic beliefs? |
I was talking about "religious people" generally, not just Islam, but will be REALLY HAPPY to discuss philsophy and religion with you Ciko - do you like lobster?
If you want to go into specifics, I would be more than happy
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| 37. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 03:09 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: Quoting AEnigma III:
I do wonder how the religious can read Plato, for example, and be able to see past their own beliefs... |
can you gimme more details? for example..what doctrines of Plato could be against Islam or Islamic beliefs? |
I will be REALLY HAPPY to discuss philsophy and religion with you Ciko - do you like lobster?
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Ouh..great chance to ask your msn... i will first pretend to be intelligent ( oh i think Plato was not as brave as his teacher Sokrates bla bla)...but..
in one hour..i will be asking money
i am a post-modern dudu
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| 38. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 04:10 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Quoting AlphaF: Quoting peace train: Quoting AlphaF:
What fight is this? A fight with likes of me? |
what are you like ? |
This is a philosophical discussion peace train. Do not bother posting messages that does not contribute anything.. |
You asked me a question and I can't answer until I know what you are like. Are you saying you are philosophical? And you never answered my question about mental development. I think it was a valid question as you had mentione physical and sexual development. |
peace train, i think, from what i read in Alpha's posts that mental developement concerns understanding and avoiding the limitation of awareness. what he said in my opinion (and understanding) is ...briliant.
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| 39. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 04:15 pm |
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Quoting ciko: Ouh..great chance to ask your msn... i will first pretend to be intelligent ( oh i think Plato was not as brave as his teacher Sokrates bla bla)...but..
in one hour..i will be asking money
i am a post-modern dudu |
PM is fine
In one hour I will be asking MORE money plus cellphone and laptop (I am a post-modern businesswoman )
And what of Plato's pupil Aristotle?
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| 41. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 04:20 pm |
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Quoting portokal: Quoting peace train: Quoting AlphaF: Quoting peace train: Quoting AlphaF:
What fight is this? A fight with likes of me? |
what are you like ? |
This is a philosophical discussion peace train. Do not bother posting messages that does not contribute anything.. |
You asked me a question and I can't answer until I know what you are like. Are you saying you are philosophical? And you never answered my question about mental development. I think it was a valid question as you had mentione physical and sexual development. |
peace train, i think, from what i read in Alpha's posts that mental developement concerns understanding and avoiding the limitation of awareness. what he said in my opinion (and understanding) is ...briliant. |
Thank you alpha. 
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| 42. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 04:43 pm |
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Quoting AlphaF:
Having observed that sexual maturity in both genders are reached approximately at ages 12-14, and yet full physical maturity in both sexes are delayed until age of 20, he is now curious whether this order should actually have been the opposite..ie. physical maturity coming before the sexual maturity - or at least simultaneously.
end of quote
quoting peace train
Sorry I am so thick and have a lack of awareness. I read this paragraph and was curious to know what youe friend felt about adding the consideration of mental maturity. In the age range you mention there is a school of thought that believes females attain mental maturity sooner tham males. I wasn't trying to be clever. I REALLY did want to know your take on this.
I have thought about the 'fishy' business you mentioned and one can really begin to "meet oneself coming backwards". I am inclined to agree with AEnigma in one view ie. I now know the reason for my madness.
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| 43. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 04:46 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: I am reading the posts in sequence. prayer and raki? |
Well, then they confused the sequence. It's
1. raki
2. prayer
That's how it normally goes. |
Yes, it goes something like...Oh God, Please stop the room from spinning...I drank too much Raki!
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| 44. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 04:56 pm |
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Quoting AEnigma III: I spent a few years delving into philosophy and have reached the conclusion that such introspection and life-theories, whilst very interesting, lead nowhere and could actually drive you to madness!!!
I do wonder how the religious can read Plato, for example, and be able to see past their own beliefs... |
AEnigma, it think it depends on whether or not you are religious in a way that makes you follow all the dogma or if you are religious because you feel there is a God. I wonder if most people feel like me? I don't feel like my religion is the only one true religion. I feel that my religion is only one path to God. Because I was raised in a certain religion, it is how I feel most comfortable acknowledging my belief in God.
I do feel that some things do have meaning, but does that mean nothing is arbitrary? Why can't the two coexist? If there was a divine meaning in everything or if everything is an act of fate...then I can just sit back and let my life happen...I really believe life is a mixture of both.
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| 45. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 05:11 pm |
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Oh my God.
Dinner with lobster and wine. Followed by a talk with raki.
A divine plan.
I think because it was my idea..
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| 46. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 06:19 pm |
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Quoting portokal: Oh my God.
Dinner with lobster and wine. Followed by a talk with raki.
A divine plan.
I think because it was my idea.. |
But was this all part of some grand scheme? If there is no dinner, will it disrupt the space time continuem?
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| 47. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 06:33 pm |
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Quoting Elisabeth: Quoting portokal: Oh my God.
Dinner with lobster and wine. Followed by a talk with raki.
A divine plan.
I think because it was my idea.. |
But was this all part of some grand scheme? If there is no dinner, will it disrupt the space time continuem? |
for me?
if it means not meeting, yes.
if it means doing anything else, no.
i am sorry for being a clown.
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| 48. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:02 pm |
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Quoting Elisabeth: Quoting portokal: Oh my God.
Dinner with lobster and wine. Followed by a talk with raki.
A divine plan.
I think because it was my idea.. |
But was this all part of some grand scheme? If there is no dinner, will it disrupt the space time continuem? |
i do not drink wine.
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| 49. |
01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:15 pm |
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Quoting Elisabeth: Quoting portokal: Oh my God.
Dinner with lobster and wine. Followed by a talk with raki.
A divine plan.
I think because it was my idea.. |
But was this all part of some grand scheme? If there is no dinner, will it disrupt the space time continuem? |
Ever heard of quantum phycisist Hugh Everett ?
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| 50. |
02 Feb 2008 Sat 06:53 am |
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Quoting AEnigma III: is more of a "dinner party" discussion! You pay, and I will order the lobster |
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| 51. |
02 Feb 2008 Sat 12:20 pm |
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I havent got time to read everything, so maybe someone already mentioned it, but AlphaF, it is true that your friend says there is difference between the mental and physical readiness for sex.
However, this is nowadays.. In older times, girls were considered old enough to marry when they were between 12-14, and expected to start making children. Its not for nothing that most girls start their periods around 12-15 years old. So a divine plan or not, the god forgot to change these periods according to current standards
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| 52. |
02 Feb 2008 Sat 12:40 pm |
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Quoting Deli_kizin: I havent got time to read everything, so maybe someone already mentioned it, but AlphaF, it is true that your friend says there is difference between the mental and physical readiness for sex.
However, this is nowadays.. In older times, girls were considered old enough to marry when they were between 12-14, and expected to start making children. Its not for nothing that most girls start their periods around 12-15 years old. So a divine plan or not, the god forgot to change these periods according to current standards |
My time is short too! But it was in the paper last week that girls of 9 are reaching puberty, so where does that fit into the divine plan?
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| 53. |
03 Feb 2008 Sun 01:54 am |
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Quote: AEnigma, it think it depends on whether or not you are religious in a way that makes you follow all the dogma or if you are religious because you feel there is a God. I wonder if most people feel like me? I don't feel like my religion is the only one true religion. I feel that my religion is only one path to God. Because I was raised in a certain religion, it is how I feel most comfortable acknowledging my belief in God.
I do feel that some things do have meaning, but does that mean nothing is arbitrary? Why can't the two coexist? If there was a divine meaning in everything or if everything is an act of fate...then I can just sit back and let my life happen...I really believe life is a mixture of both. |
Well said Elizabeth. I am one of the people that feels the same as you.
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| 54. |
03 Feb 2008 Sun 01:58 am |
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Just out of curiosity - so which things are arbitrary and which are not?
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| 55. |
04 Feb 2008 Mon 05:02 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Just out of curiosity - so which things are arbitrary and which are not? |
I think people can sense when there are things in their life that are meant/not meant to be. For example, there are certain things in my life that happened that started a chain of events so dependant on one another, I can only think it was fate. There are other things in my life that were just horrible or just wonderful and seemingly random. They were not necessarily connected in any way to other events in my life...kind of like modifiers in language....if you take them out...life would have the same meaning but would not be as rich.
I am not sure if I explained myself well or not, but I think it would make more sense after a few glasses of wine!!
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