I wonder if this is going to be deleted as well..
we will see..

I have never deleted a thread or asked a member to change a post in anyway.

Let me ask a simple question to both of you. Do you think Turkey should give up any of its land for an independent Kurdistan?

buyur burdan yak!

I warned many times admin and mods. they didnt take me serious. turkishclass is going somewhere else out of its aim. same person with another nickname bravo!!!

we will see how will admin solve this problem. coz he let members and encouraged them.

Is there anything else that you do - besides bickering about members that don't agree with you?

I respect your opinion and of course your answer does not make you a terrorist. Only a human.

Keith, if I were you would delete the posts containing personal attacks directed to you. How come these people call you a fascist?

It must not be that easy to call people fascists. It is different from being called a communist.

Fascism and communism are two different political ideas, why is one worse than the other (and thus must be censored)? Both have killed millions.

The fact that we live abroad does not mean we don't understand issues like nationalism, terrorism or discrimination. Each country had to, has to or will have to deal with them. Now it's Turkey's turn.

Janissary, do you think we all want to see Turkey give its land to Kurds so that then can set up a free country? Do you think we find terrorists attacks something good? Of course NOT. I can speak for each Westerner here that we condemn terrorism. And, speaking for myself, I find it unfair to divide Turkey.

No country should be forced to give away part of it because its minorities would like to live separately. It's a pity though, that such a thing happened just recently when part of Serbia was stolen by Albanians. Now, how can Turkey be against giving part of their land to Kurdistan if they recognised Kosovo? It is illogical. I think accepting Kosovo, Turkey did a lot of harm to itself, it showed that minorities can change borderlines of a country and thus gave way for Kurds.

Being against dividing Turkey doesn't mean that I think Kurds are not discriminated. There were numerous examples here in this site and they are not fiction. Even our government advises not to show being pro-Kurdish going to Turkey.

Janissary, you know what we say in south east Turkey? Those who live in the west are ignorant and have no idea what it is like to be afraid on a daily basis because of the massive amount of soldiers stationed on every second street corner, and of the corrupt police. What it feels like not to be able to trust those who are supposed to keep us safe, not being able to turn to them for help. We have seen countless times that they think people are animals just because they are kurds, their hateful looks, their clubs and guns which they are quick to use on any given occation.
And the authorities then try to cover it up so the rest of Turkey won't see in, so they can twist the truth. I wanted to post a video here, the only thing it shows is about 10 police officers beating a woman for wearing kurdish clothes on newroz, but it has been banned in Turkey, I can't access it. What's the point of giving examples anyway, it's easy for you to deny them.
It's us who are afraid when we go to sleep at night and think if we will wake up to see another day. I have never done a criminal thing in my life but the police make me question if I am anyway. They make us feel unsafe.

According to Washington Times PKK is directly linked with the murders of 40 thousand people which is 13 times more than the number of lives lost to terrorism in the incidents on 9/11.

In the near past, Turkey offered a political solution by way of declaring amnesty to terrorists on condition they promise to give up their arms. The same article written by Bruce Fein states that 80% of all the heroin illegaly marketed in France is smuggled into the country by the PKK.

There is actually nothing to get surprized about this. We remember Ms. Mitterand who declared herself the guardian angel of Kurds and aided at legalizing the presence of terrorists in her country. When they found out that militants would actually want to use their country as a base for illegal drug trafficking among many other mafia type crimes, they began complaining of them.

Those 40 thousand people who lost their lives were the policemen, soldiers, teachers and doctors working in the region. I have spoken to hundreds of them in the last 20 years. They kept saying: "These Kurds treat us as friends in the daytime and fire bullets at us at night."

My own aunt told me they took cover under a couch when the terrorists opened fire in the general direction of their house on several occasions. Their windows would be broken and there were bullet holes everywhere on their walls with small kids petrified in the middle of these appalling incidents. She told me such attacks became a routine part of their lives and that several times, they survived those attacks by narrow escapes. My uncle-in-law lost his life when he was fighting PKK terrorists. He was asking the terrorists to surrender on the megaphoe when he was shot in the forehead.

We still have people among us who claim that Turks oppress Kurds. Just youtube to find out what American police does to stop smugglers infiltrating into their soil. If the people in Azade's town are all victims, who are killing all those 40 thousand people for God's sake. Who is sheltering them? Who is secretly supporting them? Only a kid would believe that all these are happening without the involvement of large groups of Kurds. There are on the other hand peaceful Kurds as well. As a matter of fact, we should single out those and refer separately to Kurds as an ethnic group. We really wanted to do this many times in the past. All those amnesties did not produce results. This opportunistic group would like to see Turkey become a second Iraq. We will not allow this. This is not nationalism, this is patriotism.

When September 11th incidents took place an enermous wave of nationalism spreaded all accross America. Everyone including myself condemned the terrorists then. Where is the difference now? Which Kurds killed all those people? what was the reason? Turkish government initiated the largest investment of its own history in GAP which is a multibillion dollar project. The purpose was to turn barren land in the region into arable agricultural area in order to improve the local economy. For many years, Eastern provinces have been given the status of primary investment area where tax immunities and incentives are offered for potential investors. All these have been done to offset the geographical disadvantage caused by the fact that East Turkey is essentially rugged highland terrain with altitudes ranging from 1200-2200 meters-a situating making economic investment in these regions too difficult because of transportation considerations. This is an economic reality which is not easy to deal with for a country with limited resources. Add to that the fact that on several occasions the existing investments are being destroyed by the PKK -a fact which discourages people thinking of investing in the region. Today, certain roads in the region are mined by the terrorist organization. The perpetrators always have food, shelter, weapons and money to be able to perform these terrorists acts.


The PKK has a political extension called DTP. DTP leaders call Turkish military stop bombing PKK camps. They refer to Abdullah Ocalan as their President. DTP Vice President has recently made a statement in which he said, they do not consider the PKK as a terrorist organization...

Azade;
What do you expect from us should we say thank you to Apo for terrorizing our country and costing the lives of 40 thousan people?

Should we grant autonomy to Kurds? Some of them even had claims that this autonomy must be extended to Western provinces where Kurds live in great numbers.

What political solution do you suggest? Or are you looking forward to an economical solution. Should we empty all our pockets and send all our money to East. Did you know that this country suffers from a huge budget deficit for years? Did you know that the government cannot collect money on the services they bring to the region. Tremendous amounts of energy is being stolen in East Turkey, oil and drug smuggling is rampant in the region. There are certainly people benefiting from the chaotic situation there. What do you expect from the government under the circumstances.

Do you think we are very happy with the attitude of the police. We observe that it is getting better gradually. Do we revolt against our country when we are subjected to brutality. We stay here and fight against it. We know that the exact same thing is happening elsewhere in the world too.

Vineyards... you have a point, definitely, but you only see one side of the story. What does America and its policy have to do with this? Does that make Turkish oppression and violent assimilation policies any more acceptable? :-S
You are talking about Turkish lives lost to terrorism, Azade mentioned the fear that they live with every day. Maybe THAT would explain why are turn to violence? Yes, Turkish lives lost because of terrorism is unacceptable, but Kurdish lives are equally important.

I lived in Diyarbakir three months. I know certain things.

From my experience/surroundings/people I know, most kurds want things to quiet down, they want to lead normal lives and not having to think about PKK, they want what most turks also want. But as catwoman many times have said in various threads, the unequality that they face every day and has seen for many years is making them not believe in 'Turkey'. When they are being treated unfairly, which is a very mild word to use, they start to chant 'biji serok Apo' and want to break free from Turkey because it's the only way they can let their feelings out. Who wants to be part of and contribute to a country in which they actually are unwanted?

There's two sides to the story, and I understand the horrors of what PKK has caused, but looking back in the mirror it is obvious that if there had never been an assimilation campaign, if the kurdish people had been allowed to live their lives, speak their language etctera etctera PKK would never have existed. It's simple logic. During all these years it has gotten very brutal, it is a vicious circle of violence caused by both parts. Right now I don't have an idea about what the solution could possibly be, I want to inform people about what is happening in south east Turkey because they have been brought up to believe that kurds are simply animals that hate turks and want to break free of Turkey ("steal turkish land") just because they can. Those people need to realize that there is a reason to the current situation and that everybody, both turks and kurds, need to kick in to promote information, understanding, and untimately peace. That's what everybody wants, but many understand that violence is the solution. That is wrong.

Am I the only poster here who is in favor of an independent Kurdistan? Or am I just the only poster who dares to say this out loud?

I am in favor of a vote.

Actually NO, alameda. "Turkish" person doesn't necessarily mean a citizen of Turkey. According to wikipedia, it's a person whose native language is Turkish (which would exclude Kurds) but also it may refer to the Turkic tribe that migrated from central Asia, in that sense it denotes ethnicity, which is separate from Kurds.
When Kurds call themselves Kurds that means that they want a separate country? hahahahahha, this is quite funny actually!

"Irish American" is simply a politically correct term, unless it's a second, third generation living in the US, a person will not call her/himself Irish-American, but simply Irish.

The problem with Kurds is that Turkey has been trying to suppress their identity, so Kurds are holding on to it even stronger. Nothing strange about it.

Come on Catwoman, you rely too much on Wikipedia. There aer international norms governing such matters. The word Turk denotes exactly what the word American does.

Quoting KeithL:


Quoting KeithL:

Let me ask a simple question to both of you. Do you think Turkey should give up any of its land for an independent Kurdistan?




Isn't it interesting that these two "free-thinkers" are not brave enough to answer this question!!!



haha
you never ever understood turkish politics and no knowledge at all about our history and culture..
You are embarresing as a mod to Turks here..


Which Turks Thehandsom?
P.S. I forgot to quote as usual.

We don't need a source for this. Turkey is a country which has been in existence and recognized as a sovereign nation for a long time. The name of this country is Turkey, its cizitens are called Turks. There are Turks who are ethnically Kurdish, Circassian, Georgian, Greek, Albanian, Lazian, Arabic, Urdu, Polish, Abhazian, Assyrian and you name it. All these people are still Turkish citizens or Turks by nationality and whatever they are ethnically. Turkey is a unitarian country, it is not a federation. There are no multiple nationalities within this country.

None of the ethnic groups claim they are subjected to torture, it is only Kurds who claim so. In the streets they sing praises for Apo the jailed PKK leader by doing so they endorse the acts of the PKK. When they indicate their opinions in platforms like this, they say all they are asking for is improvements but in the streets the discourse changes. As Azade pointed out they chant Biji Kurdistan, biji Apo. Turkish government is responsible to its people. It cannot give away an inch of land to anyone. All the land we have is our common property. You are free to live on it, use it, buy it or do whatever you want with it but you are not free to launch a free Kurdistan on Turkey's soil.

The only way for Kurds to do that is by fighting just like we did when we acquired this land almost one thousand years ago. At that time there was still no Kurdistan here, there was the Byzantine Empire. As a matter of fact, a free Kurdistan has never existed in history. Now, the US is setting up a country for them as part of their A Better Middle East project. This project was realized by a complete disregard of the rights of Arabic and Turkoman populations in Northern Iraq. These people are crying for the land once rightfully belonged to them. The oil goes to the US and the land to the Kurds.

In which town did this awful event happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2M1t5a5l60&feature=related

İ cant believe it !
Do you really demand Türkiye to divide her lands between Turk and Kurd ?!
But Kurd are Turkish!
Should countries divide their lands between whom living in it ?!
So we will see İtalin part ,Chinese part,Japanese part...ect in USA as well ?!
And all of them will be independent ?!!!
Aren't they all americans ?!
İ havent seen USA so far given any part of its land to the Native Americans ,has it ?!
And God knows they deserve it !
Or it wont do any good,but dividing Türkiye has its good sides ?!!!!

Alemada, thank you for your excellent insights!! (The term Turk was used in Italy for any Muslim, regardless of ethnicity. I knew some people from Sicily, Malta who considered anyone Muslim to be a Turk.)

in europe u call every turkish citizen, or as alameda said every muslim as "turk" it is not oppression. and none of kurdish pll feel oppressed. whatever they do in europe, europe accuse Turks. BUT in turkey when we call turkish citizens as "turk" it becomes oppression. if ı call them turk, TC members call me as racist

Daydreamer, in international politics there is a concept called reciprocity. Nations determine their policies in response to those developed by other nations. This is an iron-clad rule in international relations.

There are a number of alliances which are not officially declared but known to everyone, accordingly:

Russia, Greece, Serbia form a league of Slavic/Orthodox countries. They use their influence to create advantage to other Slavic or Orthodox members, may it be Eurovision song contest or international politics. To offset the effects of such naturally forming pacts countries like Bosnia, Macedonia, Albania form another entity which is supported by Turkey. The Balkans have always been a center for ethnic, religious turbulance. Do I support countries being divided into camps like this? No. However, this is unfortunately the case.

As you know there are current/historical tensions between:

Macedonia - Greece
Albenia - Greece
Turkey - Greece
Turkey- Bulgaria
Turkey - Serbia
Serbia-Croatia
Serbia-Bosnia
Bosnia-Croatia
Bulgaria-Macedonia

It works like this: For example, If you are a Greek, you do your best to undermine Macedonia. You don't need a good reason for that. If something is bad for Macedonia it is good for you. Similarly, Turkey considers Bosnia as a natural extension of its culture and heritage in Europe and the country feels Bosnia is left alone in the middle of hostile powers. Hence it strives to protect Bosnian interests. During the war, people collected contributions everywhere in Istanbul to be sent to Bosnia. This is something that naturally happens. It is very much like the natural rapport between the Brits and the US people. The UK government openly declared on many occasions that they consider the US a natural ally on historical and cultural grounds and that they will always act together.

By virtue of such unwritten pacts between countries, The UK could capture Falkland islands from Argentina. Did the Argentine people have a strong Patogonian league that would defend their interests at all costs, this would not have been possible.

DK - that's exactly what happened in Serbia - Albanians had their country to go back to but they created a new country of stolen Serbian land!

Vineyards - of course I am aware of the preferences stemming from the historical as well as geographical reasons. However, my point was that Turkey's decision constitutes a threat to its own integrity. If Kurdistan wanted to proclaim independence, do you think it wouldn't gain support from the EU and the rest of the world? Most countries with similar problems like Turkey didn't recognise Kosovo in order to avoid similar claims on behalf of their minorities. Turkey's decision to do the contrary may have tragic repercussions.

They first called the EU, The European Common Market and then European Economic Union and finally the EU. The organization has been evolving in a continent comprising highly incompatible elements. The EU has already positioned itself against Turkey. It pushes Turkey to recognize Greek Cypriot Government as the sole representative of the island; for long years it openly supported PKK terrorism. A significant number of PKK terrorists took shelter in European countries where they generated money for financing their operations.

In other words, it will not be a great surprize for Turkey if the EU supports a free Kurdistan in the country. After all, everybody wants to see some results when they make such a long term investment.

P.S. I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on Kosova independence. I will read a bit and write a comment.

If you think there is conflict in the area now, imagine what it would be like if Turkey was forced to give eastern Turkey away.

Dutch Prof.dr Martin van Bruinessen, Dep.Oriental Languages and Cultures,who is a specialist on the Kurdish issue and on the Kurdish people and culture, suggested in a lecture that a semi-autonomous Kurdish state under official government protection of the Turkish Republic could be the sollution..

I don't believe a semi-autonomous state is a good solution. Look at semi-autonomous Albanians in Serbia - they got their rights and used them to bite the hand that gave them privileges. The rumour has it that voices in Scotland (that has its own parliament) start to speak about separation from the UK louder and louder. Giving Kurds a semi-autonomous state would result in partition of Turkey.

I believe a policy of investment is needed in the eastern region. Creating infrastructure and education opportunities as well as jobs. Also, the proportion of places in the parliament should mirror ethic divisions in a country (e.g. in Poland the biggest minority (0.4%) are German and they are granted 2 places in the parliament).

I wonder how many turks actually live in south eastern Turkey. In Hakkâri I can't remember having met a person that could not speak kurdish, I'd like to know about other cities. Probably the further west the more dense population of turks.
It's funny that some are so protective of 'their land' but they never dare venture there. They also tend to forget that borders change.

I was merely asking a question, not stating any of the things you are indicating. And my question still stands. I asked out of pure curiosity, the language part I added as explanation of my question.

Azade, we are answering you politely. But your posts do suggest a border change. So I don't understand your point.

My question was how many ethnic turks apprx. live in south eastern Turkey. As I said, I don't think there are any whatsoever in the far south east, which is the part I know well. I wonder about other places. haven't been able to find any information about it.

Azade, you should remember that you are as biased as some of the most biased voices here. Yours is a thoroughly a Kurdish perspective.

If any ethnic group dares to establish a nation of their own they must fight a war of independence. In the foundation of all nations there is blood and ours is not an exception.

We are not fools, we have known this cause long enough to realize that Kurds essentially hate Turks, they want their own country, they blame all the problems they suffer on Turks.

Let me try and give you another perspective, most of the problems including economic, social, terror related and cultural alike are indeed caused by our Kurdish citizens.

Here are my reasons:

* They have a feudal, oppressive and primitive culture. Do you think most Kurds grant any rights to their women? What happens when a neighbor sees a woman's hair looking out from a window. News is rushed to the family board and the woman is executed by the most eligible male member of the family.
The dimensions of the male chauvenism is indeed apalling in most Kurdish families. As a woman, if you are raped, you are murdered by your family on account that you have become dirty.

* Despite decades that have passed by Kurds are still living in a feudal order where aga is the owner of the tribe. Most members of the tribe do not even hold identity cards. They have to ask the permission of their aga for anything including marriages. There are lots of other practices in family life for example, having to pay the father of the bride a large sum in order to get married, when your husband dies you are supposed to marry the brother of your husband among many other primitive traditions.

* Most Kurdish families have never heard of population planning. Families with 10-15 children are not uncommon. So is polygamy.

* Kurds do not live where they are they are always in pursuit of better opportunities elsewhere. Millions of them live in Europe and Western Turkish provinces. There are a great deal of mafiaman deliberately using the nick Kurd to infuriate people. Because in everyone's mind a Kurd is someone capable of all sorts of evil and they use this.


True our government made a number of big mistakes and it has still been doing many more. Nevertheless, you should think twice before believing in a video clip featuring Kurdish people being tormented by people. Most of those videos are set up by PKK militants. Usually, a few people begin throwing stones at the police and there are some terrorists firing their arms. When the police intervenes the group of women began wailing and throwing themselves in the middle of the street. Normally, demonstrations are restricted by the governor of that city and this situation is declared to public before that day. The police does make a mistake by using their clubs mercilessly on people. That is unfortunately the standard stuff in most of Turkey. But when all these elements come together in a video clip, you have a striking show at hand.

vineyards most of the things you are saying are not true. Prejudices are very harmful and only make things worse.

Azade, I am 40 years old. I have traveled in East Turkey extensively. As a university student, I had Kurdish schoolmates later on colleagues. I have learned enough.

Azade, have you been to SE Turkey often?

I don't really think this should be a battle of "who knows more", we obviously have different experiences from various places in various situations, seen with different perspectives, but yes, I live on and off in Hakkâri. If I had a somewhat nice job I would like to live there permanently, hopefully sometime in the future, but it is not possible right now, for reasons not related to this subject.

None or very few of the villages there are remote from bigger towns and in any village I have been in life does not seem to be very different than life in cities. Families are continuing to live more modern lives and have less children. It's the same development as turks have gone through. Though there still are some unconvenients in our lives like method of showering, lack of proper heating and having go and bring water from various wells/springs/whatever during the winter due to frozen pipes. In other ways life is better there. People are always friendly and helpful in ways I have never seen any other place and in this discussion it is simply not fair to draw a picture of a people supporting horrible acts, because it is false.

Oh do come one time, I'll prepare the most delicious çay don't miss it out on it