EU and Turks
Recently there was a survey, done by kanal D about EU:
The question was 'should Turkey join EU?'
http://www.kanald.com.tr/haber/haberdetay.aspx?haberId=3906&catId=32

green is 'we should join eu'
blue is 'it does not matter if we join or not'
red is 'we should NOT join eu'
yellow is 'no idea'

The strange thing is, of course, the change between january 2008 and april 2008
the values in january were
30.1 'we should join eu'
31.7 'it does not matter if we join or not'
26.6 'we should NOT join eu'
11.6 'no idea'
After the decision of opening a court case against AKP to close it, here we come.

This should be taken as a lesson by the people who is in love with the statusquo in turkey.
Because it is a slap on the face who do think joining EU is giving up on soverenity and the people who think party closures are the solution.


I TRUST Turkish people's judgement.

Turks in EU:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPMCCjQmBQs

Distasteful title in youtube;
and underneath
despicable, nasty, ignorant comments from primitive, unenlightened people.

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What worried me and I was puzzled by is why the father wanted to throw his little boy out of the window? As a man and a loving parent you should be protecting your child not exposing him or her to a danger or as a shield. There must be something wrong in such behavior that cannot be justified by any circumstances.

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I am Turkish, and am completely against Turkey joining the EU. I find it rather amusing that there is still propaganda about the inclusion of Turkey in the already "dead" EU.

People on both sides of the argument often cling on the untenable nationalistic pride, or outright xenophobia, often overlooking the real reasons why this issue exists in the first place.

The general public opinion in Europe is obviously against inclusion of Turks in the EU. Europeans do not feel that Turks are civilized enough. And the majority of Turkish immigrants that flocked to Germany, Sweden etc in the 60s have not done much to fix this image. They wouldn't admit that this is how they feel. But, this is how it is. Turks are still considered to be "barbarians." The general public opinion in Turkey is not only that Turks are at least as civilized as the "Euro-trash, on welfare checks" but in fact more civilized in the sense that they carry the legacy of the greatly feared Ottoman empire.

What I find rather amusing in both cases is the fact that nobody wonders about why EU politicians would favor inclusion of Turkey in the EU despite all the negative public opinion.

Let me get a few facts straight before I explain why Turkey should refrain from joining the EU.

Following the collapse of the USSR, the economic & military ties between the EU & the USA were damaged. During the Cold War, the US maintained a significant position in Western Europe as the only military capable of protecting Western Europe against a potential Communist aggression. The presence of the American army in the region allowed the EU to foster economically, while not having to spend that much on maintaining an army. As a result, the US became not only the protector but also the major trading partner of the EU. All of this changed with the collapse of the USSR.

For the first time, the power dynamics had changed, and the EU leaders aspired to becoming more than a simple "economic power." The EU wanted to become a political power. The problem with this idea was that you can become a political power only if you have an ARMY. Currently, the EU is paying the price for its short-sightedness.

Let's take a good look at this s-cherished European Union, and the miserable state it is in.

1. Europe has no army of any significance. The second largest army in NATO is actually the Turkish army. The cost of raising an army the size of what Turkey already maintains is enormously higher than the financial burden of including Turkey in the EU. The primary idea behind accepting Turkey will allow European countries to use the already strong Turkish army & modernize it into a European military power. It is actually a short-cut for saving a lot of money.

2. Europe has no access to oil. It has no access to the middle east thanks to the two gulf wars perpetrated by America. France has been trying to deal with Iran to establish a fourth petroleum exchange platform in Paris to sell oil exclusively in Euro. But, who knows if this will be realized. On the other hand, if Turkey becomes part of the EU, the EU will not only share its borders with the middle east, but will also control the pipelines that pas through Turkey.

3. Europe is at the mercy of Russia due to its dependence on Russian natural gas. We all saw how the EU politicians had to eat shit when Putin closed the pipelines as a political tool.

4. The few smart Europeans, such as the Icelandic, and perhaps the rest of Scandinavia are already working very hard to change their economy to depend less on oil. The trend is toward a hydrogen based economy, such as the one proposed for Iceland (to be completed by 202. But, the big players, such as Germany, France and the UK are still pursuing their own interests. This will eventually lead to a break-up of the EU.

5. There is already much annoyance with the common currency, Euro, especially in Germany, Italy and France. In case you are wondering why there are far too many Italians working at coffe shops in London, it is because they cannot find employment in Italy. There is even the possibility of Norway & Denmark pulling out of the monetary union. It should also be taken into account that the always-sneaky United Kingdom has rather wisely refrained from joining the monetary union clinging onto its own never-changing, fully-pegged currency. The Turkish Lira was recently re-valuated, and is doing just fine without the burden of "Euro."

6. Regarding immigration, the EU is on the verge of a disaster. Nearly 1.5 people out of 10 in France & Italy is either North African or is a Muslim. Spain & italy is suffering a major problem with illegal immigration from Rumenia, in the form of Romani Zingaris, who do not consider themselves Rumenian at all. The UK & Germany already have a significant number of Indians, Turks, Kurds, Pakistanis, West Africans and Eastern Europeans. All this diversity is a time bomb that will explode within our life time. With a population that is aging, the demographics in the EU 15 years from today will look very different. I think that racism will resurface its ugly head, and wage-gap will be a lot more visible.

7. The EU is suffering a crisis with its welfare system. On one hand, you have an aging & retiring old Europeans, whose pensions will have to be paid by the younger generation that has a socially costly habit of taking two-week vacations in Bali on their unemployment checks & under-the-table jobs. On the other hand, you have massive immigration and have no way of monitoring or placing the new-comers into your society so that they can integrate. I often wonder why people make such a big deal about "having the right to work where ever you want in the EU." What is the big deal? There are no jobs anyway. So you might as well wipe your ass with that work permit. If Europeans are worried about "foreigner" coming in and stealing their jobs, then it should be said that it is only the low-paying jobs that the Europeans aren't willing to do in the first place that are "stolen." You don't see too many Europeans wiling to work at low-paying hotel jobs, cleaning, live-in-caregiver for the elderly etc. They would much rather collect a check from the government while working under the table as a bartender. I have no doubt that the EU has already cracked economically right in the middle.

In the light of all these negative things, I don't see what Turkey will achieve by joining the EU other than having to carry its burden. I think it is about time that certain Europeans woke up and realized that not all Turks are actually "gagging" to join your crumbling club. Many of us feel that Turkey should play a role in the area similar to Switzerland with its neutrality.

Maybe the European Dream is over already...

Now, tell me, where you have graduated from?
A brilliantly articulated opinion. Many interesting points with insightful information.
Well done!

Good points Cynimistics, still, I'd rather live in that Europe whose dream is about to end than outside it. As for mixed ethnicity, I don't think the problem is different backgrounds coexisting, the problem is when extended families live off social welfare rather than work. Have a look at the USA, they are a melting pot and somehow for 200 years they have been pulling it off.

I somewhat don't see you living in Bulgaria anytime soon

I definitely wouldn't mind the weather! I spent a nice holiday there a few years ago and loved the place. Still, sure I'm not planning to live there. That's because of money. Simple. That's why I no longer live in Poland although it's in EU as well. But, given a chance to make as much money in Turkey and Bulgaria I think I'd go for Bulgaria. The more I learn about Turkey the least attractive a place to live it seems. Holidays - anytime. But as a place to live, Bulgaria wins - at least I'd be able to watch You Tube and not be hassled in the streets

I can certainly respect that. However, you should also keep in mind that there is a very large number of Europeans already living in Turkey. Bodrum, a very trendy holiday destination on the Aegean has many & many Europeans who own houses/estates, and live there through out the year. Antalya, by the Mediterranean, is almost exclusively owned by Russians now, who have bought 7 invested in a lot real estate. Istanbul, particularly the historic Galata section has many houses owned by the English.

And, perhaps to your very surprise, they seem to be doing just fine in terms of "getting beaten in the streets".

They are watching youtube as well.

You are wrong again my friend.

The prices in Istanbul are actually comparable to Europe. I am not sure when you travelled to Turkey last time, but I can assure you that living in Turkey as a foreigner is not, on the contrary to popular belief, much cheaper than living in Europe. A lot of Europeans wouldn't be able to afford quite a bit of the real estate in Turkey as it is quite expensive.

Regarding your fine point about living in a country "not because of their love of Turkish politics", I should say that i love the logic of illogicality in this statement. I live in Canada, and prior to that I used to live in the US, Italy, England, South Wales etc etc. Do you really think that I chose these countries because I fell in love with their politics?

On a more personal thought, I would like to remind you that, although you are free to live where ever you like or vacation where ever you please, do not make the false assupmtion to think that "living in Turkey" is basically a decision dependent on your choice. You aren't that privilidged. Sure, you could pay your $30 visa at the airport and come for a vacation. However, it is quite likely that even if you bust your ass in the process, as a foreigner, you may not be given permission or be able to afford to live in Turkey, or get a work permit, simply because Turkey isn't gagging to attract clowns to honour us by choosing to live amongst us.

Quoting Daydreamer: Quoting cynicmystic: Of course there are. But not for their love of Turkey's politics but rather for the Mediterranean climate and relatively cheap prices