I am usually shocked when I learn that someone reports on someone when he/she has no conter arguments for the other person in a debate.

Complaining about other people behind those people is a sign of cowardness.

I would never want a friend that reports on me.

these people are cowards that cant stand face to face with problems and cant admit that they loose because they lack knowledge.

and worse bit that most mods encourage members to PM in order to manipulate behind the curtains, and they start cooperating with coward chickens.

CANLI has repeatedly deleted all my latest posts where i didnt use insults.

Heck with such biased moderating! it feels like we are in Iran or Egypt. sick!

This thread is restored.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No COMMENT!

Yeah, I have to agree.  I think it´s quite childish to resort to sending complaints about other members to mods.  For the most part, I would like to consider most of us adults here. When you run a business you expect your employees to work well with eachother.  If not, you encourage them to work out their differences.  The last resort would be going to your manager to discuss these concerns.  I remember a few months ago we have a colleague alert line, where colleagues can report threatening situations, harassment etc.. However, people even abuse this system they call for the most ridicoulous things..For example:  My co-worker Sally doesn´t ask me to go to lunch, but asks Heather and Deb in my department...

Unfortunately, your going to find people with this mentality everywhere even here at this site.  I think you should try to work out any differences then the last resort would be to send a pm to a mod.  I also dont think everyone here can be a mod...There should be a process even though this may be voluntarily.  They should have to meet certain qualifications and experience before they are considered.

Nobody is ´running to mods´ for help. Some people simply think that some things have been unfair and they wish something is done about it. This is what mods are for.

 Doudi,

Unfortunately all that you can do to protest this attack is by asking her whether she would prefer to be in Boratstan. You know it is free to ridicule ethnicities and nations here. You can also call her sick and a coward too...

yeah but i said no comment cause i wanted to be polite

and its very rude to ridicule countries and ethnicities!

It is not free to ridicule people here, but everybody is an adult, right? We don´t have to react to every single post. Most people can judge for themselves and what some say, means more about them then about those they ridicule. Instead of policing every post, we can respond to it and by the strength of reason not by the strength of force and deletions we can win.

I refuse to be a part of this. In my book, the two messages of femmous are provocative, and full of personal attacks. I deleted them as a mod and while doing so I did not seek any superiority or authority. I just did what commonsense ordered.

Let this be an opportunity to declare people that I protest this and quit as a mod.

 So,i should use common sense and say,

Tell me  femmeous  dear why do you think being in Egypt is sick

And maybe start to search for artickles talking about how sunny and generouse Egypt is,and post picture and ...etc

Or do you prefer to play by her rules and start attack her for her attitudes towards others,and mentality ,and maybe dig where she is from and stary to ridicule it ?

And if i tend to use the polite way,and neglect,and send admin/mods pm´s about it,then i be labled by being cowered ?!

Or maybe its better that to just sit back,be thickskinned and watch and laugh and take it as a joke ?!!

Ý wonder which path do you think i should use then ?!!

Be fair and if you think femme went too far tell the same to Doudi, who ridiculised the people of Southern-Egypt by calling them all backwards. Or, just shrug and do nothing.

OK Doudi is wrong. What will we do now? What we are discussing is whether we should stop these kinds of verbal attacks on people or not. So, what is your oopinion Trudy?

Canli, she said that "she feels like she´s in Iran or Egypt" because she was being censored! And she called ´that´ as ´sick´, she did not say that Egypt is sick!

Catwoman she called those complaining people to mods coward chickens.

It feels like Iran or Egypt. Sick.   It doesn´t take a lot of power of reasoning to understand what is implied here. You are also implying the same thing by making that explanation. What part are you objecting to really: Sick?

You should know that many people refrain from implying such things out of politeness. Do you want a war of words to begin where everyone attacks one another´s country?

She was not nice, she was rude in expressing her message... but I don´t think this was enough of a reason for deletion, that´s all.

My idea of an insult is quite different from that from many others, I think. I don´t mind if you call me and my countrymen bed, stupid, silly, morons, backwards, sinful, gay etc. I don´t mind if you say that ´the´ West (as if there is just one....) is evil, atheistic, racist etc. The only thing I want in return is that I can call the governments, the actions of certain groups (not all people of a complete country), the rules and rituals of certain cultures or religions the same.

Of course I have my sensitivities as well, of course sometimes I can´t handle everything because of my mood/state of mind, of course one can hurt me but mostly if someone tells me that I, my country or the complete West is .... (fill in at your choice) I shrug and think what my grandmother always said ´it´s better that you say it than a complete sane person´. (You = general, not as in Vineyards!)

My limits? Telling someone s/he is a person with Down-syndrome, an aids-patient, wishing cancer or other lethal diseases to an opponent, threatening with violence or death. Stuff like that.

And what to do? Mostly nothing. It´ll pass.

When i saw,i´ve replied,you can check the timing to see if im being fair or not

Maybe i need to give a prove too that the Eastern Egyptian mod is not biased !

 http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_27720_156

 I have to agree.  Femmeous´ post was rude but I don´t think it was bad enough to need  deleting - especially as this just reinforced what she was complaining about .

Ya, you can delete my posts instead LIR. femme the famous sent me a pm with many swearings and insults, and i replied in the same way that she will be pleased i think ... 

I think there must be a consensus among moderators. I suggest that Trudy join other mods to represent the Dutch, British or Texan points of view which they so obviously consider as natural and prefered standards for the rest of the world...

 Hihihi. Great joke, Vineyards.

Irrelevant comment   We are talking about a particular post not pms.  People can police their own pms with the ignore button.

No, im talking about posts on forum, you can delete my posts, my posts are more rude than hers. The pm part was just a sign about personality, just a liberal education for our respected mod LIR , btw i like the ones whos good at somersaulting...

I dont get hurt by insults, if our noble vineyards or polite armegon think that they can hurt me, they are deeply mistaken.

at least i found out for myself who are crying babies and who are adults that can handle difficult exchanges.

have a good evening.

 how could you loose a chance to announce it?

 if i had to choose between egypt, turkey and boratstan, i definetly prefer my country. i dont redicule ethnicities, but mentalities. but you are too tough to understand it.

 Wehhhhhhh!!!

 Am I missing something here? 

 yes, my name is boratGUL Sagdieva what a pleasure to meet the turkish philosopher and a great artist

plz, come to boratstan, you will be honored in truly borat way.

 sorry, if you dont come to boratstan you will offend and almost insult me, and you know its against TC rules and of course, eastern traditions, i believe you dont want to break any of those.

plz, come and make us happy with your light and wisdom, your beautiful words will help us to deal the pervert relationships.

and of course, you will get a chance to taste camel urine (notice also recommended by the prophet from the middle east as a medicine). actually horse urine is more delicate.

come and try.

bring along some dudus for borats sisters.

 I know you have a thick skin. My aim is not to hurt you, just a sincere respond yo your pm. Imo you were borned to be faulty , thats not your fault, so take this as a compliment because of this i said "i think you will be pleased" and im right...

 Thats a good chance, isnt it? Why you disturbed from the truth? As i said you are faulty, sometimes work properly, sometimes not. btw you have got a chance too ...

p.s. i replied your 2nd pm to make you happy...

OUFFFFFFFF!!! Why is it always me??????? U know i said this si progress for them ! That they made a lady mayor! I feel like a lot of people here like scan every post, just wanting to find something!" Oh we arae so fair! Look at u east you generalise about people and are stupid morons! We are soo much better than you! We´d never say anythign abd a bout a fellow human!"

U know, im soo sorry i ahve such sucky english that im always understood wrong! I will scan my posts before posting them,  dont worry.. makign sure that ther isnt one teeny tiny thing that could be inhumane!

Oh bad bad Doudi! U deserve a beating you naughty girl! How could is ay such a thing???? Ill go wash my mouth out with soap!!!!! To call people something! Shameon me! How did i ever do it!

OUF!

(Doudi canim, don´t worry, we still love you )

 Ã am very much aware of what she said cat,need no explanation,it was obvious enough

She said it more than once and made it clearer here

And i believe i was not the only one who understood it

So need no defending here

But of cause we can always blame it on the West/East barriers !

So what else would i need more to feel it offensive then?

That she use M**r F***r words then it can be count as offensive ?!

As a member,i see/saw it as an offensive post,other members let me add Eastern members saw it as offensive post,but you choose to ignore it.

We can also see it as West/East barriers!

And as Elisabeth said,this site based on the West and should be monitored according to Westerns thoughts...so WHO cares what we think ?!

Look Canli, you can become a mod but you can not rely on your own reasoning because you are an Egyptian, in the end. Consider selling your soul, estranging yourself from your own country and taking up the British or American flag; should you survive other official limitations applicable to aliens, you can become a countess of your own egos peeking fun at those who remained at home, from your new upgraded world.

One must be independent from the influence of others when making decisions based on universal facts. If the actions of a mod can so easily be undone by site owner, all that he/she can defend are the rights of a certain interest group who are close to that site owner. I consider moderation largely ineffective and useless if practiced the way it is here.

As for the claims made by some Western members about what is offensive and what is not. Many a foreign person thinks he/she is the only one from where she comes. To put the record straight, having lived with them in our cities and through business or cultural links, many of us know the fundamental values of Western civilization -ourselves being a part of it in many regards. We know that the threshold of rudeness is not necessarily as high as they want to make it appear to be. On the contrary, I know that people of polite manners who set an example to others are always more cautious, more thoughtful and more liberal in their appreciation of other cultures. This is not something unique to say Turkish or Egyptian culture; it is a universal tendency.

It is possible to base our evaluation on those people who scold foreign service personnel at gas stations saying "Learn English idiot!" or those pissing on Islam´s holy book, calling Mohammad names, the Neo Nazists in Germany etc. It is also perfectly possible to evaluate this based on everyday dialogues among workers at the coffe machine. Nevertheless, what we are talking about here is quite different; it is something that should not be taken so light-heartedly. We need to open that little book entitled ETHIC RULES and read it. You may be surprized to find out that you are differing from the educated opinion when you claim "We Brits say this about Americans" and vice versa. 

I recommend that you should try to open your eyes and minds to a different kind of world whose values can be respected without violating yours all that much...

Canli, I tried to explain to you what I thought about this, you don´t have to come back so aggressive and patronizing, ok? 

There is NO WAY to please everybody here, so both sides have to get used to some things they may not particularly like.

Having read the above posts, it all boils down to "respect for other people" regardless of their nationality or religous beliefs, and personalities.

Everyone who uses this site should consider the person they are responding to in a thread.  It is easy to make judgement, will this offend or not.

Is it right to condem someone for being sensitive, or appearing sensitive just because they don´t "get the joke" and then attack them further for "not understanding the western sense of humour".  Put the boot on the other foot and sometime the "unsensitive" ones don´t get the joke either.

As I have said before, we all have differing opinions, does this make one person correct and the other person wrong?  If we don´t agree it is right to call someone and ignorant uneducated loser?

 i dont think and feel being defended by cat. dont make such delusions, plz.

Femmeous, I am not going to answer your post because;

1-) I don´t want my answers to be as despicable they would naturally.

2-) There is really no point in trying to get you to understand anyrthing. Did I say the first word about why I think it is that way with you, that would surely be a personal attack. Part of this is because you have a highly attackable personality.

You surely don´t need to be the prima donna if you have a terrible voice; you should not speak too much if you have nothing to say; you should not play the wise guy when you are obviously the other way around.

I recommend that you read some books, get into civilized dialogues when you have time left from Disneyland trips. You could also see one or two museums when you are tired of rodeo shows. After satisfying yourself scolding aliens in your town at gas stations, you might try to read posts of your TLC friends with an eye to understanding what they really want to say.

 This is a very venomous post from you Vineyards as it appears to be directed at "Brits" in particular - which I do not feel we deserve from you.

Frankly, I do not feel that anyone needs a lesson from you in ethics and good manners.  Do you HONESTLY believe that we would talk to people we do not know in the manner you describe?  And how dare you infer that anyone here is uneducated.

I was of the mistaken belief that we are not strangers on this site, but that we all knew eachother pretty well by now.  When I joke to Americans, they are AWARE I am joking and they know I would never say such a thing unless I knew them well enough to feel comfortable in my mind that they would not take offense.

However, due to the unbelievable chaos and uproar over some pretty unfair moderating, and noting your angry comments. I will ensure that I treat all members as strangers, not friends in future and with the politeness I would extend to strangers.

In addition,I would, just ONCE, like to point out that for years we have had constant complaints from Turkish (and other eastern country´s) members that we never say anything "nice about Turkey or the east" (which is actually untrue).  I would ask you to consider the thought that I have yet to see a post from any of those people which says anything "nice" about the west!  Maybe they don´t see it, because they prefer to be victims.

Finally, this forum is the only place I have frequently read the dividing term "east" and "west" and I believe it orignates in the main from "eastern" members.  You have alienated us, and then you complain of discrimination.  You feel Femme´s comments too harsh and impolite, but she is actually unique in her defamatory comments about you (and actually is from the "east"!!!!).  Such comments about the "west" coming from Turkish members are far more common, harsh and impolite and do not stem from one member only.

You are completely misunderstanding me. I like you. I would never want to hurt you. Let´s bring this up later.

Up to now I have stayed out of this but here are my two cents…..

Everybody wants to be the victim here. We all give as good as we get. We are all guilty, at times, of saying things that could be considered offensive. Get over it. Is it really necessary to go on and on for days?

Ohhh my post was deleted - I’m so upset! Ohhh my eastern ways were offended - I’m so upset!  It just keeps going back and forth………until someone gets pissed enough to ask to be deleted again. These arguments get so old!

It’s hard for me to understand why anyone would get so riled up over something someone here says! You don’t know these people…they don’t know you….so how can you take things so personally? There are REAL issues in the world to worry about!

quoting vineyards:

or those pissing on Islam´s holy book,

you reapeat this since last year, i think you wanna gain canli´s and muslims attention here.

i many times witnessed bibles being used as toilet paper or thrown into fireplaces. and havent seen a single christian raising up and demolish muslim mosques or killing imams. perhaps they honor their God and book in different way, its just a piece of paper.

calling Mohammad names,

well, i dont feel its offending, people do call names and nobody doesnt think of killing for this reason.

the Neo Nazists in Germany etc.

It is also perfectly possible to evaluate this based on everyday dialogues among workers at the coffe machine. Nevertheless, what we are talking about here is quite different; it is something that should not be taken so light-heartedly. We need to open that little book entitled ETHIC RULES and read it. You may be surprized to find out that you are differing from the educated opinion when you claim "We Brits say this about Americans" and vice versa. 

0 comment on this.

I recommend that you should try to open your eyes and minds to a different kind of world whose values can be respected without violating yours all that much...

i personally do not show off like you about being highly educated.

 and all their politeness, good manners with high education are gone off now

it shows actually they were playing their roles, pretending what they are not.

From "East & West concert" Enjoy

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=2gjb7mRBDZk

 STOP IT TOO!

Very well put GG  - but what you forgot to add is - NO-ONE IS FORCING ANYONE to be here!

 im gonan file a complaint against you to our legislative body.

I suggest we have a flaming day...

 Were the last two days not enough for you?

 It was a coincidence I was listening to klezmer on youtube today and remembered this discussion when i saw east & west so i thought it will  cheer people up if they listen to some music! what is wrong with that?

anyways, my dad used to say an old arabic proverb that goes like:  "if you intefer with something that doesnt concern you, you  hear something that doesnt please you."

This discussion does not concern me, so I deserve everything you say.

I will stop. Pas un mot.

The music was beautiful - thank you for the link cedars

I can´t believe someone took this thread seriously in the first place.

Look, people are not the same in this world,and they dont see/judge things in same way,they also dont take same decision even if they were sharing same situations.

Ý believe you already know that.

You took your decision and left for what you see as a better thing ,and maybe it is!

Ý took also my decision and stayed for also what i see is suitable for me and the best.

By no mean,you have the right to jugde my decision,or judge me for it.

You can have your opinion of course,to think if what i did/do is right or not

But judge..nahh,sorry you have no right in that.

Not just because its a personal freedom and bla,bla ..ect,but mainly because what you did,doesnt make you superior to others

As it is obviously what you think!

That is why you believe/think you have the right to attack/insult who do you believe were not smart enough like you and made same decision!

And accuse them of being weak !

Havent you think that it may take more courage to stay than to leave ?

Havent you think that,it takes more strength not to reply the attack/insult back than to reply it ?

Offend,hurt...etc you can call it as you want/like,all the same,they are easy to exchange,hard to control!

Ýt doesnt occure to you that some people see,feel their countries,with the lodes and lodes of problems they have are better for them,and more suitable for them than other countries?

We have a problems..yes we have,lodes of them,God knows how many,or how will they be fixed

But what i know for sure,they wont be fixed by me/us leaving it and going to another country.

My opinion...my decision.my freedom too.

Sorry,but none of your business,as its not my business too that you decided to leave!

You think that its absolutely wonderful being there, having freedom and going through the mentality change..fine..your opinion/believe/reality...whatever,fine by me.

But you dont know what i have or i dont have...if you really do,you would have made same decision as i did for the same reasons,or vice verse

But you didnt,so stop claming that you know us,or understand us better.

All what you see,and want to see is the mud.

Mud of the face,the body..ect,but you dont know nor see what is behinde it.

Yes,my country has mud on parts of it,we were controlled by others for long,then had wars for long time too,effected us,our economies,increasing poverties,even people changed!

She has mud alright,maybe small,maybe big.

But its mud,can go away with some water to wash it.

When,how much will it take to remove it totally,i dont know,but it will be removed,by me,and people like me for being here

Ýt is more suitable for me,if i wont be able to live the days that muds romoved,then i want my children,grandchildren...to be ...etc to live it

Ýt will be more suitable for them too to be here,on their land,smelling their air ,drinking from their Nile.

Ýts just OURS!

Ýf even i wont be able to do nothing,at least i can help in bringing up new generation can see/deal with things in a better way.

But mud cant go away alone,nor by the hands of others.

Nothing like sitting with my people,family/friends..ect,having some good jokes over a cup of tea,BBQ,or even a very late dinner that can continue till dawn.

So you dont know if it is being sick living here in my country or not,as you also dont know what i have in my mentality.

And actually,i dont care to tell you too!

But what is sick,is trying to prove how strong i am by hurting/insult/offend others!