Nothing to add from my part..

I am glad It was you brought this up. not me..

Hehe well i hope Dear patriots wont insult me for sending this as they did to you i wouldnt be as patient as you!

 This is horrendous reading!  70% have never read a book??? Wow did they not go to school?  And the attittudes, I must say I am quite shocked by this report.

The URL does not work, I wanted to find out who they targeted and how many particpated.

you can click on "article history" to go to the page

That´s a very interesting read. Thanks, Chico! Now it´s easier to understand some Turkish memebrs here who fit that survey perfectly.

UMMMM.....they could have just come to TC on a regular basis to figure this out! 

Are we all shocked now?

So now I am expecting some member to come and post some survey about the evils of Western countries now....but oh well!  This is definately interesting.

 "Sucks air in through teeth"

Interesting read,if it was conducted in my country the polltakers probably would receive the same results as far as reading goes.

I have some questions concerning this survey

1.How representative is the number 6482 for the whole Turkish population?

2.Why in this article I can´t find anything about respondents,their age,sex,social  and economic status?These data are important to form an opinion.

3.What is the percentage of University goers and school kids in Turkey

Grateful if someone could provide an answer

I wouldn´t mind betting the number of illiterate people in the UK would come as a shock to a lot of people (and - no - I don´t personally have any idea how many there are)  And we are (or were) supposed to have one of the best education systems in the world. 

Sorry - this might be a bit offtopic - just pointing out that Turkey would not be the only country were a lot of people haven´t read a book

I found something: here  ´An "unacceptably high" number of adults cannot read, write or add up, despite billions of pounds being spent on improving basic skills, MPs have warned´

They must be using one of survey methods or many of them together. you can call them to get details  Konda is the best survey company of turkey, belive me they are not traitor and believe me what the Guardian does is not trying to divide Turkey as most turkish would think

Interesting post Chiko! Thanks.

And still no comments from erm.... the ´real´ Turks?

This survey does not reveal a new thing. It´s not very interesting. Everyone who lives in or knows Turkey knows about these.

Turkish population is not homogene, and it´s 70 million.  the number of people who are literate and woman equalist are as well millions which is as many as some of the small countries´ population.

-Some 73% opposed allowing foreigners to own Turkish land or property

Is this xenophobia??? 

-while nine out of 10 said they had never taken a holiday abroad.

Could this be simply because they do not have money even for a holiday in their own country?

-Just under 70% said they never read books

This one is worrying, but nothing new. We all know already that education is a major problem in Turkey.

-72% said they never or rarely bought new hi-tech products as soon they appeared on the market.

Could the reason be again financial???

-Many also expressed fears that Turkey´s neighbours planned to carve up the country.

Well, just compare where Turkey geographically stands and where Germany stands. It´s not paranoia.

-Nearly 70% said wives needed their husband´s permission to work while 57% believed that a female should never leave home wearing a sleeveless top. More than half - 53% - favoured allowing women judges, prosecutors, teachers and other public servants to wear the Islamic headscarf on duty, something Turkey´s secular constitution forbids.

These are worrying results which we already know. I guess in these 6000 people surveyed there were people coming from every background.

-While 88% agreed that Turkey should be governed by democracy "under each and every condition", this was undermined by the significant proportion - 48% - who said the military should intervene "when necessary".

So???? This is not worrying. They did not say "sharia".

I can´t believe any of this

It is all a nasty vicious lie, designed to alienate the evil west from Turkey.  Chiko!  I am surprised you posted this evil nazi propaganda!

 I do not undermine credibility of Konda and straightforward facts provided by this poll.What I undermine is article itself ,a typical example of decline of journalistic standards,for me informative article is giving background for such kind of survey.And this article lacks it seriously.That is why I came up with my questions.

Talking about xenophobia in the light of financial problems and visa requirements for Turks introduced by most of countries changes its understanding provided in the article.

Without data  about interviewed ones and their socio-economic background it turns into trival editorial.

 Go back to your laundry, woman!!

 OK

-Some 73% opposed allowing foreigners to own Turkish land or property

Is this xenophobia??? 

Yes it is..

-while nine out of 10 said they had never taken a holiday abroad.

Could this be simply because they do not have money even for a holiday in their own country?

Agreed on this..

-Just under 70% said they never read books

This one is worrying, but nothing new. We all know already that education is a major problem in Turkey.

Agreed on this too..Even daily news paper circulation is quite low..Somehow everybody relied on crap tv news and coffee house chats about the politics

-72% said they never or rarely bought new hi-tech products as soon they appeared on the market.

Could the reason be again financial???

I am not sure on that..They follow the technology very well regardless their financial situation when it comes to mobile phones..

-Many also expressed fears that Turkey´s neighbours planned to carve up the country.

Well, just compare where Turkey geographically stands and where Germany stands. It´s not paranoia.

It is a paranoia. Because of our geographical position, do we need spend our lives with that pumped up fear? There is a  deliberate fuelling by the nationalists. 

-Nearly 70% said wives needed their husband´s permission to work while 57% believed that a female should never leave home wearing a sleeveless top. More than half - 53% - favoured allowing women judges, prosecutors, teachers and other public servants to wear the Islamic headscarf on duty, something Turkey´s secular constitution forbids.

These are worrying results which we already know. I guess in these 6000 people surveyed there were people coming from every background.

Results to cry for..

-While 88% agreed that Turkey should be governed by democracy "under each and every condition", this was undermined by the significant proportion - 48% - who said the military should intervene "when necessary".

So???? This is not worrying. They did not say "sharia".

That is deeply worrying..

Turks are xenophobic, socially conservative people who rarely read books, relegate women to second-class status and harbour ambivalent views about democracy, contentious new research has revealed.

A fine example of bogus journalism. The article offers no information as to the demographic breakdown of the participants, the list of the questions, how the wording was done, and how & where, as well as according to what criteria, the participants were selected. Nevertheless, the repsonses of the 6000 something people were immediately distorted & interpreted as Turks having conservative & xenophobic attitudes. Turks are so conservative that any night club in any of the 3 major cities, Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara, where a significant portion of the whole population resides, would be filled with girls dressed in the most provocative manner in mini skirts, see-thoughs, visible thongs etc causing instant woodies among the opposite gender. It is so conservative that the public beaches, as well as the resort areas, tolerate both micro-bikinis and topless sun-bathers. So conservative that nipple-see-throughs & accidental upskirt incidences are a part of the daily repertoire for most of the female tv show hosts. So xenophobic that tourists are welcomed and treated warmly by Turks. So conservative that, it is the only Muslim country in the world, where 99 percent are Muslims, and yet they consume quite a bit alcohol. So conservative that, while I have to get my liquor from a state-liquor store in Canada, as well as in many US states, an 8 year-ol can run to the local convenience store to buy a six-pack of beer or a bottle of whiskey for his father without any hassle. So conservative, by Islamic standards, that Turkey produces, consumes & exports its own beer, wine, raki and vodka. So conservative that you can buy & eat pork products freely. So heretic that you can actually buy liquor almost 24 hours of the day in the 3 major cities. In Canada, for example, the state-liquor store does not open until 12 am on Sundays in honour of acknowledging the obligation of going to church on Sundays. Then, after five hours, the store closes at five in the afternoon, and one cannot get alchohol anywhere else but at a bar or a restaurant. Supermarkets do not sell alchohol in many provinces and states, as well.

Some 73% opposed allowing foreigners to own Turkish land or property, while nine out of 10 said they had never taken a holiday abroad. Just under 70% said they never read books, and 72% said they never or rarely bought new hi-tech products as soon they appeared on the market. Many also expressed fears that Turkey´s neighbours planned to carve up the country.

How exactly is the opinion of 73% being against foreigners owning land & property in Turkey interpreted as xenophobia anyway?  This is like asking women if they think their breasts are too small, and interpreting the answers as 73% of women want breast implants. After all, although Turks are apparently xenophobic & against foreigners owning land in Turkey, quite a few of them must be content with selling property to foreigners, as Antalya is filled with Russian land & property owners, Bodrum with Brits, Germans & Italians, and Istanbul with many other property-owning foreigr devils. Abramovich recently purchased a huge coastline - a flat out sea-front strip - in Antalya. Israelis have been buying huge tracts of land in southeast Turkey for God knows how long. The Bodrum area is filled with property owning foreigners, who actually happen to be living there throughout the year, rather than just in the summers (so much for xenophobia by the way.) A lot of the old, stone buildings in the most trendy & historic parts of Istanbul are quite often bought & renovated by foreigners, who seem to be living there unaware of this xenophobia. Someone is selling these properties, right? I mean, it is not as if these foreign Tasmanian devils are just confiscating them...

It is also not surprising that 9 out of 10 had never been abroad on vacation. Taking into consideration that 9 out of 10 visa applications that Turks submit to visit the European countries are arbitrarily rejected by the non-xenophobic Europeans, no wonder these Turks didn´t have a chance to travel abroad yet.

Regarding the comment about not or never buying new high-tech products as soon as the products hit the market, I guess only a prime degree moron could show the capacity to interpret this as a clear sign of being conservative. Are North Americans more liberal for buying every single gadget that is shoved down their throats at BestBuy on their credit cards only to find out 3 months later that there is now ´a better & more high-tech model´ available at the stores?

Nearly 70% said wives needed their husband´s permission to work while 57% believed that a female should never leave home wearing a sleeveless top. More than half - 53% - favoured allowing women judges, prosecutors, teachers and other public servants to wear the Islamic headscarf on duty, something Turkey´s secular constitution forbids.

Well, well... I guess this 70% must have been out on vacation when Turkey elected a female prime minister, Tansu Ciller, or when women gained the right to vote in elections before countries like Switzerland passed a similar legislation. Women in Turkey are considered so second-class that they could vote as early as 1930. France, on the other hand, provided that priviligae to their women in 1944; Greece in 1952; Liechtenstein in 1984; Monaco in 1962; San Marino in 1959; and Switzerland in 1971. Some of these countries are also yet to have a female prime minister or leader elected by the way. Go figure!

"The data shows that women aren´t free in their private lives," Erdem said."The data shows that women aren´t free in their private lives," Erdem said.

I wonder if he has bothered to ask the female participants directly rather than drawing indirect conclusions from questions related to asking for permission to work. After all, he could have a question asking women if they feel free in their private lives. I highly doubt if this question was part of the poll.

On a more positive, or rather amusing note though, just to cheer you fellows up a bit from all these bad things that you have been reading about polls proving that Turks are conservative xenophobes bent on oppressing their womenfolk, I watched a different kind of poll on one of the North American channels the other day. It was conducted as part of a Canadian comedy show. People in random US cities were asked to provide the exact date of the 911 attacks. Obviously, the show producers were expecting that most participants would make the connection between the date of the event and the name 911 in the sense that 9 referred to September, and 11 was the 11th day of that month. While fake laughter bombs were constantly played in the background, I think a good 70 percent of the participants couldn´t come up with the date.

How do you guys think this poll should be interpreted? 

I dont think anybody has questions about the poll´s finding here.

And I am not sure any of the Turks in TC or even in Turkey will challenge the results.

I am not an expert on how polls should be conducted but Konda is one of the most trustworthy research companies in Turkey.

I think the values from the poll should not be questioned as if it is a result of bogus journalism.

Mltm´s answers were the best and honest answers for example..

She is not questioning if 48% is right down there for instance. She is questioning if it is worrying or not.

significant proportion - 48% - who said the military should intervene "when necessary".
So???? This is not worrying.

ps..I am laughing by myself here right now..

I am hoping that some of Turks will join and they will start posting long articles and maps about great Israel and  a secret zionist plans to buy lands in south east of Turkey. And you will see with your own eyes how xenophobic some are..

"Turks are xenophobic, socially conservative people who rarely read books, relegate women to second-class status and harbour ambivalent views about democracy, contentious new research has revealed."

I don´t see how these conclusions can be made from the answers given, as reported in the article.  For instance, the inhabitants of my town in the UK are against people from out of town coming in and buying second homes.  This is because they are contributing to  housing shortages and rising prices , which affect the young people who want to get on the housing ladder.  Nothing to do with xenophobia and I don´t see this as any different to Turkish people wanting to control property sales to non Turks.

Some might find this article useful, It´s a Journalist´s Guide to Opinion Polls  http://www.britishpollingcouncil.org/questions.html

Before I concluded anything, I would want to see a blank copy of the questionnaire.  I often find these things rarely ask questions that allow the interviewee to give an exact answer. Often there are leading questions.  And some polls are commissioned by businesses/organisations that have an agenda.

There was also an article the other day about it

http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/goster/haber.aspx?id=11052364&tarih=2009-02-21

 I think they were the ones that commissioned the poll.  It´s interesting that they choose a different headline to the other article.  I guess they have to think of ways to persuade people to buy their papers.  I´ll read it in full tomorrow.

Quoting mltm Some 73% opposed allowing foreigners to own Turkish land or property
Is this xenophobia??? 

I might add, most countries have laws against foriegners owning property in their countries. In the USA even if you do own property, you do not own the mineral rights....so if a coal country wants the coal under your house, they can get it.

Quoting mltm -Some 73% opposed allowing foreigners to own Turkish land or property

Is this xenophobia??? 

I might add, most countries have laws against foriegners owning property in their countries. In the USA even if you do own property, you do not own the mineral rights....so if a coal country wants the coal under your house, they can get it.

Quoting mltm -Just under 70% said they never read books

This one is worrying, but nothing new. We all know already that education is a major problem in Turkey.

I don´t particularly find this problematic. A lot of people read trashy books. Still in Turkey people find things to do that in the Western countries are not done...like cook from scratch, make beautiful rugs and carpets.....spend time visiting with each other.

Quoting mltm -72% said they never or rarely bought new hi-tech products as soon they appeared on the market. Could the reason be again financial???

  .........and since when is having the latest tech (enviorment polluting energy hogging)gizmo a measure of one´s worth?

Quoting mltm -Many also expressed fears that Turkey´s neighbours planned to carve up the country.

Well, just compare where Turkey geographically stands and where Germany stands. It´s not paranoia.

 If one looks at the map for the New Middle East...is there any wonder?

Quoting mltm -while nine out of 10 said they had never taken a holiday abroad.

Could this be simply because they do not have money even for a holiday in their own country?

Probably...even if they wanted to, could they get a visa?

You still have not answered how the poll that I saw about 911 should be interpreted by the way. Did you speed read that part, or you just don´t have any suggestions?

Nobody responded to this. I think the journal or interpreter aim to direct people intenionally. This has nothing to do with xenophobia. By the way whats the percentage of people who expressed their fears, all has percentage but this one is evaded only by “many”, if six thousand people have fear then we have a big problem...

In addition i really want to hear a poll done in European countries if they have xenophobia especially against Turks.  Perhaps cynicmystic can answer this as he had travelled many countries in Europe how they view Turks.

Other ones should be at least 47%, thats why today Turkey has a facist government like AKP and thats why Turks havent found any righteous leader throughout the Republic history yet, so it seems democracy is too much for Turkey, we need sharia or dictatorship and i hope AKP will provide this as US and EU supports them. I can understand US, its their politics, they support every obiedent so-called muslim leaders all over the world because these are good slaves, also good at deceiving people with religion and keep them sleep, like Saudi for example...

Are you a zionist or a nationalist, or an outright denier???

You cannot question the result nor the interpretations. It was done by Konda, remember?

No questioning, just accept and confirm... or else...

 I question the interpretation and still have doubts how representative is number 6400 of participants with unknown background (not to mention other details of the survey)for 70 million of population.

Decent polls require at least 10% of participants....In that case how can it be treated seriously?

And you can call me nationalist or whatever

Social polls and statistics give very rough answers, going to abstract conclusions with some specific questions can be very misleading.

With different polls, I´m sure I can get two very opposite conclusions of a same society:

I can get "Turkish people are the most secular people" and by another poll I can get the conclusion: "The majority of turkish people are for Sharia"

Again with different polls, I bet I can have a conclusion that "Turks are the most hospitable people", while with different poll questions, I can conclude that "Turks are xenophobes"

If we want, we can make every single country xenophobe by simply a few polls asking a  few questions. I can make France racist, Germany racist, United States racist, Japan racist, every single country.

Polls are the most generalist, simplist and unrealiable way to make abstract conclusions such as xenophobe, racist, happy, sad, hostile, paranoic, hospitable, lovely about a society.

Apperantly you have no idea about "survey methods". do you think they go to a nationalist village in anatolia and ask people what they think about foreigners? do you think they dont  choose samples from every class of societyd every ideology? be sure they must have gone to either Niþantaþý or Yozgat for this poll. do you remember that Konda conducted a poll before 2007 election and its results were the closest to the election´s results.

 Hehe you are wasting your time Chiko.  You know very well that if the survey had shown good things about Turks, there would be no-one desputing the results!

This thread is becoming a new ´what made you laugh´ thread

 Did I say something about the "samples", about the people surveyed?

I simply said that you cannot have a conclusion like the survey revealed that Turks are xenophobe with a few questions like "are you against foreign people having property in Turkey".

Carrying out a survey is another thing, interpreting it is another thing, and going to conlusions like a nation is xenophobe is a completely different thing.

Nope, I think then you would come up and stand up against it.

 As I have made no comment about agreeing with this poll, I wonder why you think that?

Go back to your pet experimentation sweetie

See you at the lights!

 And I wonder why you think that we would believe it if it had revealed positive results.

I do not believe polls making such conclusions. If it had revealed that French nation was racist by a few questions, I´d object to it too.

And for next time I´m planning of exprimenting on you. Switching from hamsters to a real human sample will give more reliable, direct results.

 You are scary

Did I say which experiment I´ll carry on you? Nothing scary.

Another thought to throw in the pot............... how do you know if people are telling the truth? 

 Well, if those Turks were dudus....we definitely know the answer!

if the survey had shown good things about Turks, it wouldn`t have been published in a European newspaper in the firstplace.

 Yeah this is true - we only like to read about Bad Turks while eating our cornflakes

I prefer to read about bad turks while eating sausage, bacon and black pudding!!!

You remind me so much of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSCp2aao0Uw

(They are tall and me is little.....)

 I prefer to watch evil Brits in movies over a bowl of popcorn!

Maybe you are wasting our time as well, as you and a couple of well-known others would be the first ones to dispute the results on the basis of generalization had the results said something positive.

 Yes, for sure, especially when we read your posts...

So, do you disagree with the poll, then? What´s your stance bud? You surely don´t sound like you disagree at all based on your past replies...

 (1) I am not your "bud" ..

(2) What "past" replies are you referring to rookie?

How many times do we have to say that you are not allowed to question the interpretation of the results. Turks are conservative xenophobes period... Accept it, or else. It was conducted by Kondo, remember. Don´t make yourself a laughing stock by being a logical & reasonable human being.

Well, try reading about the rise of Neo-Nazis in Europe the next time you read anything about xenophobia while chowing down your oat meal... I wish we could read about Turkish Neo-Nazis one of these days. It would add further support to these claims about being xenophobes.

 Yes we have had many discussions about the alarming rise in neo-nazism before.  What is your point?

Are you just trying to defend with attack?

And many of them do. I happen to be one of them. Except that I would not touch black pudding with a nine yard stick. That delicacy is exclusievly reserved for the highly developed taste buds of the British together with numerous other saples of the Great British Cuisine. Our cuisine just has not reached that level yet.

 No not at all... just making a response to your post about your morning reading. .

 Is that why you moved to Canada?  Ahhh poor canim

Are you jelous of the Turkish dudus? There is a reason why duduism exists. Obviosly, the dudu loving ladies aren´t satisfied with the local boys i their countries. Long live the dudus. Had there been a course in duduism when I was at school, I would be the first one to take it.

here we go again

 Jealous of your conning prositutues? 

Hmmm yeah maybe you should do that course ....

Not really, I moved to Canada because I didn´t want to live in the US after 911. i was in the US for university and worked for a couple of years. I moved to England because I went to a boarding school there. I lived in Italy because I wanted to study Italian. I lived in Wales because I really liked it. I travel and like to live in different places because it fascinates me. I also spend over 4 months each year if not more in Turkey. What´s wrong with having many homes in different parts of the world, bud? Just for your information, I still have an address in London, as well, and pay taxes in the UK. But, that is not because I love black pudding.

Are you a logically challenged by the way? Just let me know, becasue your logic is indicating that with your poor canims and emoticons... 

 Only if you will join me.

 catch 22next episodeplot the same,not to mention cast

 Wow actually that is very interesting.  It´s a shame you don´t confine yourself to your more informed posts - you let yourself down with this stuff.

 Letting what down. I am telling you why I like to travel and Iwhy I live in Canada. what´s the proble, bud... Am I getting you upset here?

 main characters are handsome and aenema... haha

 Upset?  Of course not - I was being serious.  You have some interesting and well informed points to make.  Then you completely blow it with your misogynist, sexist crap!

Anyway....just my point of view "bud"....

That is becasue I have to bring myself down to the level of your posts, bud. Had you been more interesting and cared to show how informed you are instead of cracking jokes supported by your emtoicon artwork, you and I would be playing a very different tune. It is up to you whether you want to settle for intellectual discussions or opt for poor sense of humour, as displayed in your crap!

I enjoy both fun and intellectual discussions....I have yet to see either from you

 Then I suggest you take the blinds off your eyes when you try to read posts next time.

Arrogance is not a good quality...iyi geceler ...

That applies to all of us, I guess, including you,  iyi geceler...

 I´ll put my nose into your discussion but for the intellectual discussions part, he´s one of the few members who´ve been doing it.

I am laughing at this thread because it is amazing to see how laughable people can get with their empty nationalistic protective instincts.

How can people can object to these findings? on what bases?

If there was a survey and if they said turks have shorter legs than their eu counter parts, they would argue that how the measurement is done!!

Are we not xenaphobic? 

well sorry to dissapoint everybody but yes we are. It does not fit our historical hospitable profile which we are proud of but we are..

Instead of taking the results as a warning or as an indicater that we should be working on this issue jumping up and down and saying ´Noooo those people might have been mischiev may be  they were  lying; were you there and seen them giving these answers by your own eyes?  the weather is cloudy; referee was supporting you anyway; and blah blah´ will not change that fact..

That is the reason the best answer was from Meltem..

Coming with the argument that ´but your racists are gaining support as well´ wont help either..

70 % people wont read books..

It is a result we should all cry really..

But look alameda..look at her answer: ´reading books is not a good thing anyway´. Yani..oha..everybody is trying to talk about the importance of education and reading, she is coming with a brilliant idea and it is : reading is not necessary anyway..

And she thinks that she is supporting Turkey with it..phew

It is better if I dont go to the other results from the survey..

And I am still laughing here.

 He is too goodwhen he does not even his level with the level of some.... but even in this case he seems to be a winner..perfect at annoying ppl,giving  explanations,responding,etc...suits every interlocutor...interesting case) anyway I prefer him upas far as reading his posts(meaningful) goes

Well, you are amusing us, too... So, you aren´t the only one laughing.

By the way, can you measure xenophobia as you measure the length of one´s leg?

Another fine example of your exquisite logic of illogicality...

This survey and the responses reminded me tthe incident of Sarah Fergusson coming to Turkey secretly and finding out what was going on in some of the disabled childeren´s hospitals..

Most of the people questioned ´why it is done´ and looked for a reason to blame the west because they think west is trying to humiliate Turkey and some of them questioned the way she has done it..

But only a few people talked about if the conditions of those hospitals were as bad as it was shown in the movie..

And the conditions were..

 By the way, I forgot to say welcome back.  I noticed that you have been so quiet for the past few days...hiding out in the Language Forum.... strange...

It is good to laugh together..

It is a good example of you trying to support unsportable..and doing it for your country I guess..

So any talk about ´how horrible and unnecessary for a person to read is?´

back ache? not good for your eyes? 

Ahhh,you believe in everything that is written???

I would prefer coffee house knowledge but the quality sucks in London

GOOD,you do not differ from the rest of Europe,all the countries in EU are xenophobic,not all are willing to admit it.According to EU

commission survey the most xenophobic is UK,the least Spain

That is what I like about your post..See..there is a survey and you are NOT questioning it..it is fine..have you asked any question how the survey is done? no..

That is what I want from my country men too..

It is as simple as that..

The question is why on earth it is that difficult to accept these facts for them..And as long as they dont and DENY, then how do we progress?

Results of over 6000 compared to 70 million???Bravooooo !!!!!!!!!

I am emailing konda right at the moment about it. I will tell them..ok?

The same in EU

I doubt it..any survey? or any proof?

EU citizens do not cry

Well you dont..but we are turks we should and we will..

IT is important to my mind but i am a dinosaur in face of new technologies overcome.Dinosaurs are all who worship books as source of info...ehh,hayat!

well as long as they spent their time infront of a screen and searching porn it is better if they read really..

Which results?

naah..

And I am still laughing here.

Me too))))))))))

good good dear aval....

 You obviously haven´t checked, or you would see he hasn´t missed a day for days. When he does post, it´s a lot more than a few lines of witless drivel.

Ouh dont worry I know his reasons for his respite in the Language forum...

 Hahaha this does not surprise me! 

The UK is full of xenophobes!!!  But then I guess we DO have the most multi-cultural city in the world! 

 Perhaps now, but it´s only recently multi-cultural...and as a result of the British Empire. What is the saying..."when the chickens come home to roost"?

 Yeah I completely agree with you

As I mentioned in an earlier post, not only do we have to "put up and shut up" we have to embrace it, because of the guilt of the colonies! 

I don´t see the same shame from Spain, Holland and Portugal though....   We Brits are happy to take ALL the blame, but it would be nice if sometime people remembered South Africa (Boars), South America etc....

well..

what can I say?

I agree with  the potentials of Turkey

There is energy,  passion, hot blood  and everything. But unfortunately we are what the survey says because of  we´re too busy denying.

 Well....I think the Spanish & Portugese got a bit more cozy cozy with the colonized....but they also have been out of the game for a much longer time....having lost out due to the British. So, in a way, you guys were left holding the bag.

It would be interesting to see what the results are in Belgium.

 Hahah are you expecting me to defend anything here? 

I am the first to talk about the colonies sweetie.  Perhaps you are still smarting from your mistakes in the Gifts thread!

It can be a bit off topic there,but thinking about Turkey and its access to EU i remember the words of Salvador de Madariaga-the Spanish scientist  and intellectual during one of pre-EU conferences

he said

"The new Europe must be born

And she will when Spaniards will say ´our Chartres´,Englishmen say"our Cracow"(btw my favourite city)Italians´our Copenhagen"and germans´our Bruges"

then Europe will live"

I can only add the EU citizens could say"our Istanbul,etc..."

long way to it...

And we will be saying suspiciously ´hmmmmm.. you christians have always wanted our istanbul back´ 

 Not at all....I think we probably are in agreement. As to the Gifts thread, that was resolved, but I´m sure you will find a way to create chaos.

 hmmm,do you think that our Christians associate Istanbul with Constantinopol?????they do not read and their net info dates back to 90s last century,you expect too much)

 H, if you want to have a nation, there has to be some nationalism. The world is not all one big "Kumbaya" fest....

 Aenigma!!!!It was Churchil who started this idea!

 Am I supposed to say Churchill is a hero at this point?

Another exquisite example by you completely off topic...

Anything else that you are reminded off? 

 Not really, I have been posting everyday actually...

Time for yout o take the blinds off your eyes when you try to read, bud... It helps, believe me. And welcome back to you too. I thought you had said iyi geceler. What happened? Couldn´t sleep? Try having a glass of warm milk with honey. That may help.

 Am trying Spiced Apple and Camomile Tea...but my nervous unrest at the thought of you in dudu school is keeping me awake...

Hmm

You are making a huge mistake overthere..

I am not talking about ´your´ christians here . I am talking about our beloved nationalists whom you are trying to support.. They will be difficult to persuade since most of them believe the entire EU thing is a part of conspricy to divide us and ultimately,  pray in beautiful Hagia Sophia.. They date back to WWI..

 Aenigma is on dutyinstead of babyglam

 Well you are right today!

she logged in while I was writing a message..damn..must be faster next time..

I am glad I am making you laugh. had I been you I would be giggling 24/7 starting off in the morning when I look in the mirror.

Taking into consideration the lack of logic in your arguments, I guess it is a fight against the unsupportable. It is not being done in the name of my country. i am afraid I am doing it all for myself so that people have something that is worthy of reading other than your bogus age old mantra lol...

Change, open your mind to new realities, and, trust me, you will be happier. You are not a parrot, so stop playing the same record like a broken record player. 

 What respite bud? There hasn´t been many new posts in the language section, the ones that are new, i have replied... Plus, if didn´t have to waste time replying to nonsense posts such as yours and handsome´s I would surely post more in the language section. Believe me, I would prefer that. It is just that I get no relief from madness on this forum carried out by madmen...

 Look, you just can´t argue with a poll ok? The result are conclusive, you after the Turks are the biggest xenophobes. We take the first place though, you take the silver medal. Plus, it was conducted by Kondo. No more comments.

 Ouh don´t trouble yourself - there is no need for you to reply my posts at all - there is nothing I wish to say on this topic. Right now I prefer to make sarcastic inane comments and get you all riled up  

Come on man..

if you had not spent your energy for denying the reality it would be the best help for your country..

Keep going personal rather than putting something new..

Look..

look at meltems post..

We have already KNOWN these things..

There is no denying from our part as Turks..

That is the bottom line...

Why are you resisting to accept those facts as findings and talk about the reasons?

 Look....I am sorry but you are WRONG. WE are the biggest xenophobes!

Hmmm Kondo eh?  Offffffffffff

 On the contrary my friend. A lot of Turks, unlike you as a fellow paesano, have a positive attitude about the future and are working hard toward making Turkiye a better place, as much as they can. We aren´t what the survey says we are, and that has already been proven to you well beyond your comprehension. That is why you are still here posting this gibberish. What a gladioator you are. A beacon of truth, justice and exquisite logic... I wish all Turks were like you (excluding me...) No doubt Turkiye would be a better place.

Does anyone ever agree with surveys?  I am not very patriotic, but even I get wound up when I read that "most of those British surveyed could not spell "separate" or "90% of British people surveyed thought Marco Polo was a mint" blah blah!

Yeah its funny to laugh at, but does it really tell us anything accurate. NO! 

 As I already told you many times, and as you still don´t seem to get it, I am resisting these bogus facts based on your bogus logic, That is the reason. Going back to the broken record player example, you are still scratching my ears.

I do not like biased polls,they create stereotypes.I would love this poll results compared to any conducted in any EU countries.I bet results would not differ.Unfortunately,poll itself provides insufficent interpretation and being exposed in Guardian makes average reader think about Turkey as a wild country.

Come on man

I am telling you that.. YOU DENY OR NOT..

That is what we are.. Since even you do not accept ´what we are´ how can you acpect to change? The result is right on spot..same as their other surveys..

Even they asked to every 70 million of them, you would have come with the excuses such as ´may be they lied; may be they were just trying to be make the survey look ridicilous´

Well sorry but as long as you keep denying what we are, my truth will always come as a huge slap as a reminder..

That is the simple logic: ´you denying it wont change what my country men are ´ at the moment.

It is as simple as I can put it for you..

 I think surveys and polls are generally designed to mislead or impress people. Especially when they deal with abstract concepts ledaing to arbitrary interpretations. The legacy and the positive things that the british have contributed to the human tapestry is well beyond dispute. Who cares about what people can speel or think of Marco Polo anyway.

The whole concept of holding a poll is outright bogus especially it doesn´t include the whole population. Anyone can design a bogus poll and misinterpret the results accordingly.

 I think you have to remember that this site is ABOUT TURKEY!!  (Or supposed to be)!  Of course we have similar polls, and similar embarassing results.  We don´t think that it is ONLY Turkey who have these kinds of things!

If you are fed up with this site being about TURKEY always, find something like English Language Class and go ridicule us on similar polls!!!!

Manufacturers will tell you that they use polls to sell their products.  Therefore, in the same month you can find such "results" as:-

1000 people said that they prefer coffee to tea.

and

1000 people said that they prefer tea to coffee!!!

You have to KNOW the exact questions asked and who was asked them....

 hahahahahahahah,mwahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)))))))))))

are you telliing me I do not have a right to be here???And being fed up with it????I love TLC,so do U!!!!!!!!!

at least I speak Turkish

As far as I am concerned I never thought the readers would think Turkey as a wild country..

They would just think a country who is still  developing..That is all..

And we Turks have never portrayed ourselves as europeans anyway...

I just smiled to the post and to be honest as a Turk, as a person who claims to know Turks, never ever thought a TURK would challenge the results..

I knew someone would say that ´what is wrong with  the idea opposing foreigners buying property in Turkey, why it is wrong´ (which Meltem openly said ) But I will never ever thought someone will be so oblivious to Turks and question the findings..

That is the reason I am still giggling here.

 Of course I am not saying that you salak

Yeah ok, I cant speak much Turkish

 How many times do you need to be told to speak for yourself? Are you the general advocate to talk on behalf of all turks? I am  a Turk, and know many other Turks like myself, who do not happen to be what you keep telling us that we are. I don´t accept it for the valid reasons that I already provided. You, on the other hand provided nothing other than saying that the results cannot be questioned because it was carried out by Konda.

In your level of sophistication, you, unfortunately, do not reserve the privilage of using those hyperactive lips of yours to talk on behalf of everyone else. Express your amusing opinion in the first person singular, not in your general know-it-all-I-speak-for-all tone.

I am not trying to make the survey look ridiculous at all. It already looks ridiculous as it is without my involvement. It is you that I am trying to ridicule for all the right reasons evidenced by your past posts on this topic.

The only thing simple is your mind. that´s why you post simplistic stuff all the time. things are not as black & white as you see through your colour blind eyes.

 Tessekur ederim,canim.My bed is awaiting me..have a nice duty..there is  some hope babyglam will log off,isn´t there?herkese tatli ruyalar.)

 No point me staying if you are going then ( )

Yes I am off to bed too now

Sweet dreams

Again, talking for everyone else like a self-proclaimed advocate... Stop it dude, just talk for yourself, you will sound more credible.

I told you already... the giggling starts the moment you see your reflection in the mirror evey morning.

Why should we portray ourselves as Europeans or Africans or Asians or any other generalization that you can think of in the first place? We are people like any other people. Why generalize like you always try to do? Aren´t you bored? It doesn´t work.

A lot of people put very good and valid arguments against your bogus ones, but you disregarded them as usual.

Allah allah.

Geez

Calm down..

Look sophisticated boy..

This is my knowledge you like it or not..And that is Turkey... You like it or NOT..

You can burry your head into sand, into shit, into tezek or into a gold mine.

it does not matter..

You are coming as if our population was a population of book readers..

Is it a lie that our population do not like reading?

is it a lie that our people trust the army more than politicians?

is it a lie that gender equality is NOT perfect in our country?

is it a lie that we are  paranoid as far as the west and our fear of being carved up concerned?

The findings of that survey DID NOT SURPRISE ME AT ALL..

I am still sure that MOST OF THE TURK WILL SAY THE same thing. But they will argue with you about ´what is wrong with trusting army´ such and such as.

And you are still insisting that findings are not true..!!!!

What kind of logic is that..I would not mind taking kissing that logic before using is  as a football before shooting my penalty and scoring..

Come into your senses..please yani..

That is the reason I am about to burst in tears from laughing now...

Please ya..stop this..

where did you live really? was it Turkey at all?

uuuuwww... the wise cabbage is taking excursions into crudity...

I must have really hit the g-spot.

I am not against your bogus knowledge. I am against, as I have said many times, to the way you generalize and try to talk on behalf of all Turks, as if you qualify for such a privilage.

Go back to the mirror, look at you reflection, and keep giggling. If that doesn´t help, you can always come back to TLS and read your posts for a good laugh. They sure make me laugh.

You can always stop answering and stop me posting..

Of course we are people like any other people.. (tell this to my country´s heroic nationalists too..They think we are a supreme race.. )

That is what I always said..Did I say something different? or your understanding is a bit strange..

btw..lines I crossed are nothing to do with the topic but your obsession..Please refrain...

 WOW! H, you must really be getting desparate...calling anyone who is not a prepubescent child "boy" is serious trouble here.

ha ha

Well definately it is not a G-spot if you hit something..And I am not going to tell what it is..(please ya..do not pull  the level down)

I have alyways talked about Turkish people the way I talk..I am sooo sorry you do not like it..

geez..

 Ummm....H you seemed to have missed my post in this thread

" H, if you want to have a nation, there has to be some nationalism. The world is not all one big "Kumbaya" fest...."

What is your obsession with "nationalists"? You are always going on about "nationalists" do you advocate no borders and everyone come in and do what they want....

come on alameda..he can defend himself I think..

stop acting with your motherly instincts here..

And as you can see I am not desperate at all..I know what I am talking about..

it is my country and I can NOT lie..

I will stop answering you, when you stop posting nonsense. I will also stop, when you start talking for yourself rather than for all the Turks. My understanding is good enough. I have, for example, understood you really well.

Regarding passing your wisdom to the heroic nationalists of ´our´ country, if you care to provide their names & contact info, I will gladly let them know that there is a cabbage on TLC that would like to have a word with them. You can do the talking yourself. After all, these bogus ideas are yours, not mine.

look dearest alameda..

If you have heard what my sweet nationalists say and do , you would have blisters and herpes around your mouth with worry..

Nationalism was necessary to for the nation (for us nearly 90 years ago) but in this century you have to get rid of your nationalism in order to keep your country intact!!! You have to replace the nationalism with citizenship somehow..That is the reason why we are having  stomachaches  in Turkey..

Apart from that fact, our nationalism very close to racism in some respects and the worryingly most of my Turkish friends will not think that way and think that it is a form of patriotism..

 H, I have been reading your posts for a couple of years now and have seen you constantly post negative things regarding Turkey.

Maybe you don´t lie, but you have a definite perspective.

I can not see anything about the topic ..

No need replying,,

 As with anything...there are boundries. It seems to me you constantly post negativity regarding Turkey. You don´t even seem to like the name, saying it is racist.

I think you have blinders on yourself....there are entities who would like to carve Turkey up., as amply shown with the map of the New Middle East.

"The Turkish Protest at NATO’s Military College in Rome

Lieutenant-Colonel Ralph Peters’ map of the “New Middle East” has sparked angry reactions in Turkey. According to Turkish press releases on September 15, 2006 the map of the “New Middle East” was displayed in NATO’s Military College in Rome, Italy. It was additionally reported that Turkish officers were immediately outraged by the presentation of a portioned and segmented Turkey.8 The map received some form of approval from the U.S. National War Academy before it was unveiled in front of NATO officers in Rome."

Well.

negative things wont be changed until they are acknowledged..

Denying has never a help to anybody..

Because we have been denying all those facts (such as findings in the survey) like some members are doing here "that is we are what we are" right at the moment..

And the way we are makes me really upset..

But thank you..at least you are acknowleding that I am not LYING..

I think we are more likely to get blisters and herpes around our mouths by the lack of logic in your posts...

The country is intact as you can see, and the only authentic "Turk" that seems to have cramps in his stomach happens to be you or at least it sounds that way from your posts.

Can I ask you how much time recently, or how many months out of a year you actually spend in Turkey? Because, you seem to have missed a lot of the positive achievements in Turkey. When was the last time you were actually in Turkey? And, why are you so bothered about the way the country is heading? I think Turkey is doing quite well despite your unending ranting...

 No wonder you don´t see. You haven´t taked your blinds off before reading. That´s why you keep crossing things out like a schoolboy in error.

I will post this again 

In case I get some answers this time..

Allah allah.

Geez

Calm down..

Look sophisticated boy..

This is my knowledge you like it or not..And that is Turkey... You like it or NOT..

You can burry your head into sand, into shit, into tezek or into a gold mine.

it does not matter..

You are coming as if our population was a population of book readers..

Is it a lie that our population do not like reading?

is it a lie that our people trust the army more than politicians?

is it a lie that gender equality is NOT perfect in our country?

is it a lie that we are  paranoid as far as the west and our fear of being carved up concerned?

The findings of that survey DID NOT SURPRISE ME AT ALL..

I am still sure that MOST OF THE TURK WILL SAY THE same thing. But they will argue with you about ´what is wrong with trusting army´ such and such as.

And you are still insisting that findings are not true..!!!!

What kind of logic is that..I would not mind taking kissing that logic before using is  as a football before shooting my penalty and scoring..

Come into your senses..please yani..

That is the reason I am about to burst in tears from laughing now...

Please ya..stop this..

where did you live really? was it Turkey at all?

Not related to the topic..

It is again about me..

See, you are talking on behalf of every other Turk as the official self-proclaimed advocate again...

Denying has surely never helped anybody. It certainly hasn´t helped you, has it?

You hate the fact that there are a lot of Turks, who have a positive view of Turkey, feel good about all the hard achievements that have been achieved, and look forward to a better future. You hate the fact that they also do not care to acknowledge your childish rants, and challenge you each time you start howling...

The only thing that needs to be acknowledged is your bias & negativity.

And, no, you are not lying... You are just talking nonsense most of the time.

Right

Now this is getting boring boys and girls..

Unless you put here something believable and related to the topic, I wont reply..

May be I will but I will cross them out..

Sorry about that..

 Of course it is about you. About whom else is it supposed to be. It is about your nonsense. Go cross this one out too.

When I was a child I wondered if all the people with different colored eyes saw things the same color. As I matured I learned each person has a slightly different visual capacity.

How you see depends mostly on your perspective, the lense you are looking through. I don´t think you lie....but you seem to see things in a very different way from most of your countrymen. Did you ever see the movie Rashomon?

Everyone sees through their own desires, predjudices and perceived needs.

I completely agree with the part I did not cross..

The rest is just about me..

Please stop this..You are making me feel like a teacher and marking your homework..

Are you serious?

Are you saying you will actually stop posting your nonsense if we do not put something related to the topic?

Why didn´t you say so earlier? All this time, we have been posting related to the topic hoping that you would learn something and stop ranting. I mean, if this is all it takes to stop you from ranting, then by God, in the name of baby Jesus, we shall refrain from posting related to the topic so that you would actually end the madness.

Thanks man.

 I thought you were going to stop? Did you change your mind? Are we in for more ranting? We had enough for one night dude. I am a bit tired of trying to read through your crossed out quotes... Give us a break, let us resume tomorrow, or better yet, stay silent for the next century.

I love that movie..

I love all kurusawa movies actually..

btw..have you ever heard of a concept called dialectic?

anyway I am not going to sit down and talk about necessity of critisism, opposing forces/opposing sides/contradictions and follishness of denials here..

Good night falks..

It was a pleasure..

 ............and do you think I have no questions related to this issue? I would appreciate it if you would not patronize me here....and any country that wants to remain a country has to have some patriotism/nationalism to maintain that country.

I love Turkey and Turkish people, and don´t want to see it carved up....as some wish to do.

I go to Turkey to be in Turkey and around Turks. I find it annoying when I see miles and miles of beautiful coast strewn with tourist hotels and tourists who have no regard for the country.

They just like the warm weather,  nice scenery and beaches....and they inflate property values, but don´t really do much for the general well being of the people.

For those who may be wondering about what handsom may have meant by dialectic (logic) and "not sitting down to talk about necessity, criticism, opposing forces/opposing sides/contradictions and foolishness of denials here", I would like to say that dialectic as a term simply refers to a method of argument which has been part of both Western, as well as Easter philosophies. The word itself comes from ancient Greece, and refers to the practice of holding an argument despite the fact that the participants share some common views and principles.

Since I, and couple of others here, don´t hold much in common with handsom or share his views, I guess his dialectic notation is to be disregarded. 

I am sure he will cross out the sections that he doesn´t like and resume his nonsense as usual.

Good night bud, it has been a pleasure as usual... 

what a coincident..

Wiki is describing ´dialectic´ as you do.. very similar words..hmm..

You should read it fully though..

Of course wiki is quoting it as such. That is because that is what the term means, and that is how it doesn´t apply to your arguments...

I thought you were leaving by the way, and would stop posting if we didn´t post things related to the topic...

 Thanks thehandsom

 As usual, girleegirl contributes yet another deep insightful post. One can see she really thinks about all sides and aspects of a conversation and her brilliant observation contributes so much to the discourse.

 GG you should know that Alameda only likes deep insightful posts.....I think she is on the wrong forum!

As usual, another pompous post from alameda.  Seems I have struck a nerve. 

 Gosh darn it!  I guess I should try harder to to make sure everyone knows how brilliant, thoughtful and deep I am! 

I wonder if there is a link I could post....

 I suggest you try www.inflated-ego-bores-forum.com ?

 Anyway...back to the topic...

I love Kurosawa´s fils, He was a real master. As for dialectic...of course I´ve heard of dialectics.....but I don´t think it is applicable here. This is not a dialectic question...it´s a pretty simple matter of seeing from different views. I also think those views are manipulated.

Have you seen century of self...you of course, know of Edward Bernays work in manipulating public opinion?

 Well GG (or shall I call Kettle), I think alameda (we can call her Pot) may have a point......you sometimes post things that are shallow and quite honestly, just don´t have a place on this forum of intellectual GIANTS!!

 You thought you were so funny you had to post this twice? 

DAMN!  I WAS GOING FOR BRILLIANT!!

 Hopefully no one ever looks up the Dutch word ´pot´ in the dictionary..... ROFL

an that should be quoted

i completely agree with you, lisa,

i too feel so shallow when i read GG´s posts. i just cant believe that i have to go down to her level in order to read some people´s like GG or you lisa.

 My dear esteemed colleague.......Thank you for lowering yourself to the bed Amerikan level....I hope you can manage to get back off the floor!

 I´d like to speak for all bed amerikans when I say how honored we are that you would stoop to our level! 

 Ouuuhhhhh same time, same thought!!!!!!!!!!  We ARE low!!! 

 GG....its MY TURN TO HAVE THE BRAIN!!

 Sorry but you didn´t seem to be using it today so I thought I would just go ahead and take it!  

 Would you kindly PM me before you just go ahead and snatch it?  I was in the middle of posting something.....THEN POOF!  all my intellect was sucked out! 

Oh dear I guess I wasn´t thinking.....wait...are you sure I have the brain right now? 

 I donno.....is that whistling in my ears bothering you?

Oh noooooo! Is TheBrain missing?  

 Did you take it in an attempt to get out of sissy-world? 

Honey, I wouldn´t know what TheBrain looks like if I saw one!

 It looks something like this...

Here we go!

 Hey! That look uncannily like MY brain after I finish reading your posts...kind of all mashed up and squidgy...

(I am not sure if this post is following my new self imposed rules.. )

But it looks so yummy..

I want some now..