A very good song from Mustafa Ceceli - Karanfil (Gillyflower)

Ah benim örselenmiş, incinmiş karanfilim,
Bir sessiz çığlık gibi kırmızı, masum, narin,
Bu ürkek bu al duruş, söyle neden bu vaz geçiş?
Ne oldu ümitlerine?
Bu ne keder? Bu ne iç çekiş?
Sen ki özgürlük kadar güzelsin,
Sevgi kadar özgür...
O güzel başını uzat göklere,
Gül güneşlere gül...

Kırılma, küsme sen yine bir şiir yaz,
Çok değil inan az kaldı az,
Bu kadar erken susma biraz bekle
Ağlama, ağlama, gül biraz.

My crumpled, my offended gillyflower,
Like a silent scream, red, innocent, fine
This timid, this red pose, tell me why is this giving up?
What happened with your hopes?
What grief is this? What is this sigh for?
You are who beautiful as freedom,
Free as love,
Show your beautiful face to the skies,
Smile at suns, smile...

Don´t be hurt, don´t offend, you write a poem again,
Not too much, a litle left back, a little,
Don´t be quiet too much early, wait for a while,
Don´t cry, don´t cry, smile a little.

thx

turkishcobra //

Just wanted to say that Gillyflower is not in very common usage in English - I think Carnation would be a better translation of Karanfil.

Also, in this line - ´bu ürkek bu al duruş, söyle neden bu vaz geçiş?´ - doesn´t ´al´ mean ´crimson/scarlet´ and not ´white´? 

Carnation, clove or dianthus.........actually, I prefer dianthus  I prefer dianthus to carnation because a carnation is a dianthus.....it´s odd that clove and dianthus are the same word.  They are different plants..........

Gillyflower actually refers to:

Its name came via French giroflée from Greek karyophyllon = "nut-leaf" = the spice called clove. Some say that "gillyflower" originally referred to scented plants that were used in Europe as a cheap substitute for the spice called clove.

On another issue related to karanfil.....the 4th meaning in the Turkish dictionary is odd.....is that real?  I noticed the same thing with the word çiçek and a few others.

Yes Alameda, I knew the other names as well but somehow ´my crumpled clove´ or ´my crumpled dianthus´ didn´t have much of a poetic ring about them for me!

....the word ´odd´ - or an ´odd´ definition?  In the TLC on-?

You are quite right in that respect..........however if instead of

My crumpled, my offended gillyflower,
Like a silent scream, red, innocent,

it were

My crushed, my transgressed dianthus

like a hushed wail,  crimson, guileless

Would not the rythm better fit better?..........

I´m not sure Turkish Cobra will appreciate us trying to improve on his translation!  - but that sounds better to me!  (prefer ´scream´ to ´wail´ though)

...and while we are at it, in the last verse it should be ´don´t be offended´ not ´don´t offend´.

as in an odd definition.........

In the TLC-on?          in the Turkish Dictionary that you go to from here....

....indeed! Does say it´s slang though

You are quite correct......I am very thankful for his most generous translation........I´m just playing around with words as  I´ve noticed English speakers have lost a lot of their vocabulary through none use (or over simplification). 

English is a very rich language that is terribly abused. Maybe because the sun never set on the British empire....English incorporated ("borrowed") many words from other places......there are many Latin, Greek words in English.....among the many others. It is probably the reason it´s so difficult to learn.

Greek and Latin influences as a reason for English being a difficult language? Nope. With only an average historical knowledge it´s good to do, I think. Much more difficult are ´your´ silly rules about word order and the endless idiomatic expressions which are almost alike but that mean something so very different (come in / down / out / up / to / round / to terms etc.)

Greek and Latin words are not the reason for difficulty in learning English, rather the irreguarity of grammar and spelling....the many words that sound the same, but have very different meanings.

Words like: weigh, way..........there are many of them.......

I also wonder how people do with all the different accents.  I find some accents I can´t understand at all. I was on the phone with someone from India and the rythm of speach was so different I was almost crying as I could not follow them. In the begining they spoke slow enough, but as the sentance continued the speech got faster and was impossible for me to understand.  As it was, it could have been a very exensive error as I was buying travel accomodations.  The same problem exists with Southern US English, or New York accents.  Heavy regional accents make it difficult to understand what is being said.

Presumably you mean the person from India was speaking in English but with a heavy Indian accent.  That´s a bit different to the English dialects spoken in England isn´t it?   An Indian who has lived in England in Liverpool for a number of years will sound totally different to another Indian brought up in Exeter for example - but neither of them will sound like an Indian who lives in India but speaks English!!  

You are talking about accents making it difficult to understand spoken English - but surely most countries in the world have regional accents (have a look at Manisa Turkish site for some examples of different accents in Turkey) - it´s just that as far as English English is concerned - we are a very small country with a lot of different accents crammed into a small space!  This is why we used to have ´BBC English´ for our television news readers 

As for the spelling....you Americans can´t spell properly anyway!!  

Oh - and I think having a Latin influence on our language may have had something to do with our being occupied by the Romans!

Very true! Every time I read a word as ´color´ it reminds me of the red pencil of my English teacher!

 I think you are just jealous that we took your language and made it even more difficult that you could possibly have made it!    And you Evil Brits thought you were obtuse!!  MUAHHHHHH!!!

Didn´t I read somewhere that you´re of LATIN origin???  

You see the problem with English is it´s been integrated into so many other countries, so many people "speak" English making the regional variations so vast, it makes tuning one´s ears to them very difficult.  As I mentioned in my post....its not just Indian English.....it´s any English that is heavily regional. If one is not used to the rhythm, it´s all but impossible to understand. 

I believe broadcasters and those who must speak in front of an integrated audience have to learn some type of standardization.

How right you are canim......sorry about the spelling...........I´m multi-tasking and not checking...and I wish this forum had s spell checker.....hint hint....admin

I wasn´t referring to your spelling in particular!   It´s just that Americans seem to like to remove letters from our perfectly good English words (particularly ´u´ for some reason!).  Is it because everyone is in such a rush and it makes spelling the word quicker??  

Hey what happened here ?

I have left the forum for a few hours and i could never guess such a discussion about the lyrics of that song

well - i didn´t want to use "denthius" for this plant because it sounded too latin and too much scientific and it would doom all poetic meaning

gillyflower sounded better coz it is something about flower; i also know that it is not used common in English because when I enter this word in English dictionary, it appears as 4th or 5th meaning.

by the way, thanks for the correction of "to be offended". I was a little unsure about how to use this structure at this translation. this was a very useful discussion for me and thx again.

and a little note: there has been a small confussion at translation of "al" word. "Al" is another saying of "red" and it meant "red pose like a gillyflower" at the lyrics.

thx

turkishcobra //

Ha ha ha.....I really hope my comments did not offend you. I love words and the textures and colours possible with them......

Karanfil is a beautiful song and your translation is wonderful....I love the way he says karanfil...

Thank you turkishcobra

As long as you are accepting ´critique´ - you translated ´çok değil ınan az kaldı az´ as ´not too much, a little left back, a little´  - ´a little remains´ is better in this context - and where is the translation of ´ınan´ ?

And I did say shouldn´t ´al´ be ´crimson/red´ and not ´white´ as you put originally!  I wasn´t confused  

But "kaldı" is a past tense verb, "left back" is better because it is past tense too

by the way, I have had a confussion about the word "al" , not you

"al" doesn´t mean "white" , it means "red." i had written it incorrect and i have corrected it.

by the way, sorry for missing "inan" verb, it is the imperative mood for "inanmak/believe"

inan: believe! (for 2nd singular pronoun)

thx

turkishcobra //

 Maybe one of ´a little remained´ ´a little stayed´  or ´ a little left over´ could be better - left back does not actually make sense really.

Yes - I meant that ´left back´ doesn´t make sense (except in old football matches!).  I used the wrong tense for ´remain´ but I know that the past tense can often be used for the present (eg anladım - I understand) so I used it as present without really thinking!

So - how does that make the line read now?

  I was agreeing with you. 

Maybe he meant left behind instead, I don´t know though it´s hard to guess. 

Left back - is used to describe a position in football just in case it was causing more confusion .

Çok değil, inan az kaldı az :

Not to much, believe me, it left a little, a little

thx

turkishcobra //

Only learning but, wouldn´t that sound better as:-

Not too much belief, a little remained, a little

i like the turkish poems its amazzing where ican listen this song

No, belief is inanç not "inan". I have explained, inan is imperative mood for 2nd Singular Person, "believe!"

At poem, he says "believe me!"

thx

turkishcobra //

Alameda has written a link above:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2536419/mustafa_ceceli_karanfil/

You can listen by this address.

thx

turkishcobra //

 thanks