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Humans : Are they good or evil?
(61 Messages in 7 pages - View all)
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1.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 10:38 am

I think humans are evil creatures. Because i believe all of us are egoists by nature. Yes some of us help others or make favors. But i believe these are selfish acts too. Because in return we take some kind of pleasure. And this pleasure makes us more helpful. But it doesn´t make us less selfish. We help people to take this selfish pleasure. So our favors don´t depend on a moral basis but they depend on a selfish and immoral basis. A moral act must only depend to a social duty and we should not feel pleasure or anything in return of this act. Then we can say it is moral. All of us help the people we love but only a few of us help the people we hate. And it is logical but immoral because it is selfish.We take pleasure in return. We give something but we take pleasure. It is like a trade. And it is two sided. But a real moral act must be only one sided. You have to give something and get nothing in return. If you examine the people you call evil you can see they help the people they love too. So this proves helping the people you love isn´t a very high moral principal. It is very common.

I want to give an example:

When you give someone some money you can feel three emotions in return

a) some kind of a pleasure because you like or pity that person(selfish)

b)both pleasure and pain because you like or pity that person but you are now in a bad situation because you gave your money (selfish)

c)only pain because you gave money because you felt you were obliged to give it because of the social duty (unselfish)

 

a is selfish because we take pure pleasure in return. b is also selfish because pain and pleasure balance themselves. We are bearing the pain because of the pleasure. c is unselfish because we have pain in return. We are bearing this pain because we feel it is our ethic duty. We don´t take any pleasure in return. And there is another possibility when we give money to someone and it is "not to feel" anything. It is also moral because you give but take nothing in return. It is like the Budhist or Jedi way

I don´t say you "do not to help the people you love". Because i help them too. But i want you to know that this can be a selfish act according to your situation. As all of you know selfishness or egoism are evil according to our common  ethics. So we humans are evil creatures. But i believe being selfish is not an evil thing as long as you don´t harm others for your purposes.

So what do you think?

 

 

 



Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum

lemon liked this message
2.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 11:25 am

I dont think helping people is a kind of selfishness; I like to help..it makes me pleasure, indeed, but at the same time it keeps my mind and soul alive{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}; think a little, please, all great discoveries were made for helping humanity; maybe one of them were made by trying to see the personal capacities of work and understanding, but in the end all were for everybody. Im very proud by myself when I can help somebody (of course, I am human being and I have my  moments of selfishness)...but when I help a smile rise on my face and Im feel so good..

3.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 11:31 am

 

Quoting elenagabriela

I dont think helping people is a kind of selfishness; I like to help..it makes me pleasure, indeed, but at the same time it keeps my mind and soul alive{#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}; think a little, please, all great discoveries were made for helping humanity; maybe one of them were made by trying to see the personal capacities of work and understanding, but in the end all were for everybody. Im very proud by myself when I can help somebody (of course, I am human being and I have my  moments of selfishness)...but when I help a smile rise on my face and Im feel so good..

 You take pleasure when you help. You feel proud, you feel good, it keep your mind and soul alive. So you take pleasure. And you want to help more people because of taking this pleasure. So you are helping people for yourself. This is egoism. But as i said i don´t think egoism is always a bad thing. It can be a good thing too. But common ethics blame you of being evil(selfish) if you do something to please yourself. We must redefine ethics.

 



Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum

lemon liked this message
4.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 11:42 am

so..why do you help the others...I wonder,,,

5.       zeytinne
596 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 11:45 am

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

 You take pleasure when you help. You feel proud, you feel good, it keep your mind and soul alive. So you take pleasure. And you want to help more people because of taking this pleasure. So you are helping people for yourself. This is egoism. But as i said i don´t think egoism is always a bad thing. It can be a good thing too. But common ethics blame you of being evil(selfish) if you do something to please yourself. We must redefine ethics.

 

 

 So you read Kant ? Kritik der reinen Vernunft ?



Edited (8/2/2010) by zeytinne

6.       zeytinne
596 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 11:52 am

 

Quoting elenagabriela

so..why do you help the others...I wonder,,,

 

 What you dont understand dear ? You must help for the sake of helping not for the pleasure you feel after helping.

7.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 11:55 am

 

Quoting zeytinne

 

 

 So you read Kant ? Kritik der reinen Vernunft ?

 I started thinking about egoism after i had read Ayn Rand´s works. And these ideas came to my mind. Then i read the Will Durant´s The Story Of Philosophy. And i found Kant´s ideas about this matter.I took only this social duty term from Kant. I have never read any of Kant´s works. But i will soon. We are thinking same way i guess. But i don´t think Kant defends egoism. I am defending it. Because Ayn Rand effected me very much.

 



Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum
Edited (8/2/2010) by gokuyum

8.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 12:27 pm

 

Quoting elenagabriela

so..why do you help the others...I wonder,,,

 

 I help others because i am an egoist. I am doing it for myself to take some kind of pleasure.I think there are two kind of egoism. One is positive, one is negative. Positive one is constructive and creative, negative one is harmful and destructive. I am a positive egoist like you. And i am immoral

9.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 12:31 pm

The mistake that a lot of people make in their reasoning is about the definition of "selfish". Feeling good about an act doesn´t make that act selfish. In my opinion, if you for example do something because of the social pressure, it is a selfish act. You are just doing it because otherwise it would make YOU worse of. If you do something and it makes you feel good, that doesn´t make you selfish. Perhaps you feel good simply because you see that others are happy. This is not selfish at all. You get joy, simply because others are feeling better. It´s not about being proud of yourself or anything. It is getting a good feelig from seeing the smiles on other people´s faces.

Only selfish people can not understand that feeling, and describe the good acts of others as selfish, simply because they don´t understand.

10.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 02 Aug 2010 Mon 12:35 pm

 

Quoting zeytinne

 

 

 What you dont understand dear ? You must help for the sake of helping not for the pleasure you feel after helping.

 

 I dont know maybe Kant defend this but i dont defend it. I dont defend helping people for the sake of help. Because then you shouldn´t help the people you love or you pity. Because you will take pleasure if you help them. In this situation you should only help the people you hate or you don´t know. But this can cause a destruction in society. Because our first duty should be helping the people we love or pity. So i defend we must help others for the sake of pleasure we feel after helping. So we should be egoists. Only that way we can help who we want to help. I am defending egoism and immorality. Because they are more constructive and useful.

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