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STRATEGY
(41 Messages in 5 pages - View all)
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20.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 06 Jan 2011 Thu 01:26 am

 

Quoting vineyards

Daydreamer, the problem here is that you should be more specific with your protest. When you say Islam is responsible for this not only are you making a factual mistake but you also target billions of believers who have nothing to do with the policies of the country you are talking about. That´s why I suggested you should read about Islam before coming to these generalistic conclusions. Islam is not limited to Saudi Arabia or the like.

 

I´ll try to be as specific as I can. I am against ANY country that operates on Sharia law, any country that makes religious beliefs law and any country whose citizens are not free to choose their religion as individuals. Maybe it´s coincidence that all of the above concern Muslim countries. But is it really? Or is Islam to blame for the above?

Of course not all Muslims are like this. But these countries are all Muslim. Does it have nothing to do with religion? I hardly think so.

I´ve read enough about Islam to have an informed opinion about it. Bashing it is not my hobby horse just like Islam is not my pet peeve. However it´s hard not to draw conclusions when you have eyes, ears and brain. Of course not all countries with Muslim majority are the same, Turkey is a great example of how even religion as hostile as Islam can function peacefully (more or less) in a society.

21.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 06 Jan 2011 Thu 06:12 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

I´ll try to be as specific as I can. I am against ANY country that operates on Sharia law, any country that makes religious beliefs law and any country whose citizens are not free to choose their religion as individuals. Maybe it´s coincidence that all of the above concern Muslim countries. But is it really? Or is Islam to blame for the above?

Of course not all Muslims are like this. But these countries are all Muslim. Does it have nothing to do with religion? I hardly think so.

I´ve read enough about Islam to have an informed opinion about it. Bashing it is not my hobby horse just like Islam is not my pet peeve. However it´s hard not to draw conclusions when you have eyes, ears and brain. Of course not all countries with Muslim majority are the same, Turkey is a great example of how even religion as hostile as Islam can function peacefully (more or less) in a society.

 

Can´t say it enough that people always confuse religion with morals.  They are not the same.  I find that people in general, even the ones who are not particularly religious, are generally moralistic.  Most people live by a code that transcends religion.  I think once you add Islam or any religion into the mix, there is civil unrest and hostility.  We can see it in the debates about the veil, or debates in my country about religious references in government buildings.   

I personally happen to follow a religion.  I am very well aware of its failures toward women and I also acknowledge that there are imperfections in its teachings.  I am not so arrogant to say it is perfect.  However, I have chosen for my own reasons to still call myself a member.  Maybe it is out of habit or for a need to remain connected to my heritage but it has always been my choice. 

Having said that, when debates in the US about separation of church and state come up, I am always of the mind that the government has no right to preach or demand that I swear allegience to a GGod.  If a Government decided tomorrow that we should all start worshiping trees and demand that we sacrifice our first born children to the God of Treedom….what would happen?  We would all go crazy and probably over throw our government.  This is an extreme and silly example but if you give the government that kind of power in your life then they will take it.  People should always fight for freedom and government should never be allowed to intrude on  your life in such a personal way.    

 

22.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 06 Jan 2011 Thu 06:30 pm

 

Quoting lemon

I strongly disagree with all of you. At the same time I understand what you are saying. If not a change in my life I would be speaking the same things now as you are, because I was bombarded by the same mass media sources.

My priorities were freedom, democracy, equality, human rights, honesty, peace etc. Its been not long ago I´ve come to understanding that everything fails and will fail. I also see that globalist propagandists from UN and EU (paid by elitists) have done a huge work through mass media to prepare the mass for the one world government.

The soil is ready. See the results: you all speak in accord. They make you believe that you are free, but you dont see you arent. You are system slaves. Welcome to the New Age!

They have used and played terror acts in order to tighten the control system by amending the laws. Now everywhere there will be cameras, your bank accounts and incomes are transparent. You are watched like in Big Brother. And they will tell you that its all for your security.

Many people say that humans are developing, but they arent, they are actually downgrading.

There have been many lies in mass media people took in.

9/11, moonlanding, evolution, heliocentricity, etc.

After all this its easy to manipulate people, because people by nature are naive and tend to trust the government. Why? Why not? Because the holy cow UN, EU and USA say so, "the inventors of freedom and democracy" with the help of other holy cow giant mass media corporates (again controlled by the elite) like BBC, CNN, ABC, National Pornography, Beast Planet.

The more you learn the more it makes you sad.

 

 I couldn´t disagree with you more...Terrible news stories make for higher ratings.  It is just as ridiculous to believe everything is terrible as believing everything is wonderful. 

 

Maybe it is just different from where I am sitting.  Everyday I see nurses comforting patients, people helping eachother in hard times through volunteerism and charity work, I see families taking care of their olderly relatives, I see troubled kids being fostered by people who truly want to help them.  Do I hear and see terrible things too?  Of course but for every terrible thing, I hear 10 good things.  Its all in the perception of the world around you and if the perception is that the world is an evil dark place and people/governments are out to get you then that will be the truth for you.  But if you truly believe in the goodness of people then it all doesn´t seem so apocolyptic.      

alameda and barba_mama liked this message
23.       lemon
1374 posts
 06 Jan 2011 Thu 07:58 pm

 

Quoting Elisabeth

 I couldn´t disagree with you more...Terrible news stories make for higher ratings.  It is just as ridiculous to believe everything is terrible as believing everything is wonderful. 

 

Maybe it is just different from where I am sitting.  Everyday I see nurses comforting patients, people helping eachother in hard times through volunteerism and charity work, I see families taking care of their olderly relatives, I see troubled kids being fostered by people who truly want to help them.  Do I hear and see terrible things too?  Of course but for every terrible thing, I hear 10 good things.  Its all in the perception of the world around you and if the perception is that the world is an evil dark place and people/governments are out to get you then that will be the truth for you.  But if you truly believe in the goodness of people then it all doesn´t seem so apocolyptic.      

 

My belief is God-centred not human centred. You believe in the goodness of human, in their positive sides, you chose so. But the Bible says that every human by nature is evil and therefore needs to be saved by Christ whose blood was shed on the cross.

I may sound apocalyptic, I may sound bad news. Feelings dont matter, what matters is the Truth. The whole planet avoids this truth. Jan Hus said

Seek the truth
Listen to the truth
Teach the truth
Love the truth
Abide by the truth
And defend the truth
Unto death.

 

You see, this life doesnt matter much because it will pass quickly, but the life after is a thing to seek or wonder about. All of us are here for a reason. Nothing happens accidentally or reasonless.

Then so what that you lived a good positive life surrounded by positive and happy people when you can be rejected and sent away from the sight of Holy and Almighty?

Your positive or heroic or holy life filled with kindness and good deeds wont save you because no one is capable, because God is holy and will not stand even a shade of a sin.

24.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 06 Jan 2011 Thu 08:19 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

My belief is God-centred not human centred. You believe in the goodness of human, in their positive sides, you chose so. But the Bible says that every human by nature is evil and therefore needs to be saved by Christ whose blood was shed on the cross.

I may sound apocalyptic, I may sound bad news. Feelings dont matter, what matters is the Truth. The whole planet avoids this truth. Jan Hus said

Seek the truth
Listen to the truth
Teach the truth
Love the truth
Abide by the truth
And defend the truth
Unto death.

 

You see, this life doesnt matter much because it will pass quickly, but the life after is a thing to seek or wonder about. All of us are here for a reason. Nothing happens accidentally or reasonless.

Then so what that you lived a good positive life surrounded by positive and happy people when you can be rejected and sent away from the sight of Holy and Almighty?

Your positive or heroic or holy life filled with kindness and good deeds wont save you because no one is capable, because God is holy and will not stand even a shade of a sin.

 I don´t think you and I are or ever will have the same feelings about it.  In your explaination it doesn´t matter what we say or do...we are all damned.  So why bother?  You are living your life so that the promise of an afterlife is fulfilled.  I am living my life so that the gifts God gave me can be used to their full potential...that my life can positively affect as many people as possible.  I really do hope that you find what you are looking for.  As for me, I already have a little slice of heaven...its called happiness.  You might want to try it sometime.

25.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 06 Jan 2011 Thu 08:56 pm

I would be so depressed if I would wake up every day, thinking I was put on this world for a reason...but at the same time this reason was nothing at all, since my life is pointless and doomed. Thinking helping other people is pointless, since God doesn´t care about people, doesn´t care about it´s creations. Like God makes things, and throws them in the trash the next day since they are all failed creations filled with sin anyway. Lucky me, I wake up happy most days, enjoying the world around me. I might as well, since after this short life I must be doomed to hell anyway.

26.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Jan 2011 Sat 03:49 am

To Barba:

 

Time
(Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour)


Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way.
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way.

Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain.
You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today.
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.

So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it´s sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again.
The sun is the same in a relative way but you´re older,
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time.
Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone, the song is over,
Thought I´d something more to say.

peacetrain, inatcicadi and alameda liked this message
27.       Henry
2604 posts
 08 Jan 2011 Sat 07:22 am

 

Quoting vineyards

To Barba:

 

Time
(Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour)


Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way.
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way.

Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain.
You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today.
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.

So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it´s sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again.
The sun is the same in a relative way but you´re older,
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time.
Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone, the song is over,
Thought I´d something more to say.

 

Ahhh the Pink Floyd musical masterpiece ´Time´ from the album ´Dark side of the Moon´. Smile  

Meaningful lyrics and it still sounds great!

slavica liked this message
28.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 09 Jan 2011 Sun 01:51 am

If that´s the English way than I´m extra happy to be Dutch

29.       alameda
3499 posts
 21 Jan 2011 Fri 07:50 pm

Ahhh.....music from the psychedelic days..........how times have changed.......thanks for the memory......

Time

Quoting vineyards

To Barba:

 

Time
(Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour)


Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way.
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way.

Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain.
You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today.
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.

So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it´s sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again.
The sun is the same in a relative way but you´re older,
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time.
Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone, the song is over,
Thought I´d something more to say.

 

 



Edited (1/21/2011) by alameda [add link]

30.       alameda
3499 posts
 21 Jan 2011 Fri 08:49 pm

The problem as I see it is you confuse culture & politics of various countries with Islam. You think there is a "Sharia" that all Muslims must subscribe to. The fact of the matter is there are various interpretations of Sharia, not one.

What you/we see in Saudi Arabia is a particular school of Islam that is reactionary and backward in the extreme.  That particular school has gained power and spread their influence in the last 50 to 60 years because of their petrol wealth. The repressive conditions are supported by the very liberal free Western countries you love. Each time you turn on a light, ride around in a petrol powered vehicle, use you plastic coated computer and too many other things to mention in this post, remember, you are supporting the very repression you say you hate. You even wear it with the various acrylic garments...and not to mention the factories that process things to prepare things you "need".

While you proudly proclaim you are an athiest, your knowledge of religions is not something you should flippantly discuss with little knowledge. You think you have knowledge, but I can assure you, you do not. Don´t confuse politics with religion. From time immemorial those who seek power have attempted to manipulate how religions are interpretated, and lazy masses have followed along.

I can only say some of the most enlightened, compassionate, generous, humble and gentle people I have ever met have been Muslims, who would share their last piece of bread with a stranger.

None of those things you mention below are condoned by Islam, they are tribal, cultural traditions that have remained in spite of Islam.

As I have suggested many times before....try reading some of Riffat Hasan´s works.

Quoting Daydreamer

.....................You may consider me intolerant because I am against ancient tribal lifestyle where women have less rights thab men or when family finds it justified to kill a woman only because she chose to life differently than they like. Also, I´m talking about things like making it hard for other people to have different religious views - think death sentences for converting, ban on women to marry outside faith or bombing people because they go to church rather than mosque....................

 

 



Edited (1/21/2011) by alameda [e]

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