I have noticed that turkish girls don't use many make up,nor flashy earings,nor neckles.
Do it have a meaning?

But why they have to be with chadors??? :-S

u can see big differences and as if 3 kind life stilies in Turkey.So u can see the many reflections of this big differences on everyhwre to.and wearing one of em,and Turkey is really a model country for the İslamic countries,but things can be better about freedoms ,especially about believe freedoms

and pity in traditional Turkish families women don't have enough rights still,and things changing slower in traditional families.

i hope so kazpol,and things will be easier by the supports of we Turkish men

When I was on holiday recently, we noticed that there are still young women wearing the scarf, but this was in our hotel as if it was a uniform. But on the beach there were Turkish women in various modes of dress from a skimpy bikini and enjoying swimming and messing about with young men, to the young woman who went swimming in a full outfit from hand to feet and with a tight bathing cap on . I noticed her husband, who looked a lot older than her, making sure none of her hair was showing.

Hi DayDreamer...

Turkey govt or is it Education Ministry is fair NOT to allow women to cover their heads in public institutions... particularly the types that covered full-face (sorry, i forgotten the proper name for such attire for Muslim women)

One of our former Prime Minister of my country gave an example... In School - during examinations, no one will know who's who inside the cover-up sitting for the exams. It could be Aminah or Ahmed inside the attire. Muslim women in my country wear mostly scarves... or none at all. Also, they wear trendy clothes and even went to Discotheques, clubbing,etc

I feel it's not big issue to wear or not to wear cover-up (burka, hijab, chadors, etc which ever design names given...) to show your beliefs. What's been taught and keep in your head and heart that's more important. You know your limits and you must know what's right and wrong.

There's one case happened in my town - an Arab woman fell into a drain in the MORNING (broad day light) when she came out from the hotel with her family. I thought for that moment what IF she had remove the face cover-she wouldn't suffered such injuries.

When I'm driving around touristic area ..i had to be careful with the Middle Eastern women...especially at night because they are all in BLACK! Some of them are sensible to remove the face cover...

Once i asked an Arab man IF he knew that it's very hot to wear all-black cover-up...He said." I don't know. I'm not wearing them". Duhhhhhh...

Well, there are many stories... if i'm to go on My Muslim cousins don't wear them, yet they are proper muslim ...

many Turkish women and girls having troubles about wearing for their beliefs on the public area,and thats really big shame for belief freedoms.Such a pity still some limitation or difficulties about beliefs on the 21th century

PHO, if only the men were in shoes of those women wrapped all the body with blankets in a hot weather, at least a few days, they would immediately remove all those horrible burkas and chadors, and would consider over all limitations that muslim women r put in. its pointless to ask ur arab male friends about their women! why bother them? their women r born to serve males. :-S
cheers!

i think a woman can to wear what she wish,thats her freeedom,but when political worries become to difficulty for to wearing style,then noone can't talk about issue of freedoms.Main problem to keep in safe freedoms...

Yeah I agree everyone should be free to do what they want. It shouldn't be the clothes that are the issue it should be the persons choices. Coverings are not important if the person chooses to wear them. But are they a symbol of faith? what are they worn for and why don't men wear coverings also?

well,thats a form for İslamic men even beany about wearing,but pity only women on target about that as on many things,and thats the worse side of that

I agree with MrX67, safety comes first. I have read books of true lives both in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and believe me safety is first and clothing is second. The stories of these women and their lives are so controlled by men - I think there is more freedom in the lives of most Turkish women. Difficult subject but an interesting one!

Don't forget!
In Turkey,everyone is free about how to wear.
And the womens are beatiful.
But still I have no girlfriend!

well always 1 fix or path on trues land i think Beany,and i think our country good on comments about İslam then most of Muslim countries,coz freedom a part of İslam in self even,noone can't forced for nothing for a belief,thats only between God&personso Turkey is really a good model for the all world about the harmony of different cultures ,(even with some lesses)

Yes whenever I've been to turkey I have found everyone I met decided themselves what to wear and believe in etc and everyone shares their knowledge and their beliefs and are very open minded.

Freedoms usefull and needed for all us,not just for a part of people,especially belief freedom and response or details of this freedom,Just a bit more tolerance to all life stilies unless they give harm to peace and if theresn't any violence after this freedoms

Yes people who are uneducated or narrow minded are scared of things they have never known before and can attack other people for being different. The world should be educated on all cultural differences.

cultural differences only a luck&richness for world family,never for a reason for the damn fights or wars,everything nicer in tolerance&respect..how black is more meaningfull with white or how warm more meaningfull with cold

Tolerance is important it is much more hard work not to tolerate something rather than to tolerate it so I don't understand why some people create a problem where there should not be any problem maybe they have a problem with themselves

right i'm agree beany,thats really not easy to understand why the some people prefer to make difficult all easy things and beauties of life,to make it easier always better then to make difficult

wasseem, why bother me giving only one bedoins example that use coverings to save themselves from the sand that stirred up by the wind? they dont wear those coverings coz they were given such religous orders. waseem, i wasnt born today, i know the life of those women.

mrx, i would argue u, but i wont!
honestly? i know why some women would want to wear such blankets even at such hot temperature. its smth that european women cant figure out, simply they dont know the family life as closer as eastern women like me, and they support the 'religion freedom' idea, having no clue wots beneath that, namely a pressure in a 'holy' family. (actually i face it in every religous ppl be it christian or muslim).
back to the subject, they were brought up so since their birth, and they wanna be seen as good submissive women, they r encouraged to do this in their families. those women who took part in the demonstraions against the 'scarf prohibition' been seen in their families as heros and treated with more respect. its kinda play that i cant accept.

indisputably, i love freedom, freedom of belief and etc! i cant imagine we go back when we just reached the level of open discussions. we cant enjoy so called belief freedom closing our eyes on 'women slavery'. i will not pretend as if its okay knowing the tragedy of those women all over the world!

well,i can understand you well kazpol,and i'm agree with you,sure religions brings more limits to females more then that,and i think thats the unfair of humanity,deep of history full with many unjustices to women from men,and thats the reflection of that i think

I would also like to add that from my experience of Turkish culture, it seems to me that even the women who don't cover themselves and do drop the blankets and look more 'free', they also do these things in order to please men and to fit men's ideas about what women are supposed to be and look like.
There is another side to the conservative Turkish culture, the culture of pornography served with the morning news. Women are valued purely as sex objects.
I'm wondering why nobody mentions the other side of the hypocricy of the situation.

Interesting that all the women in specific areas 'want' to be owned by men, but all women in other areas don't want . Waseem, don't first agree to a society with hypocritical system of values and then say that if women want to cover themselves, it's their decision.

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa020900a.htm

Found this information - might answer a few questions?

Kazpol, thanks for your welcome . I am aware of the pornography in the Turkish media, it's everywhere, you can't take a newspaper and read news without seeing a few naked pictures. The men made it so that "their" women can't even think of sex and being attractive, because they wouldn't stand it if women did the things that men themselves do, but this is how they perceive women in general.

Maybe some women value their tradition and religion and cover themselves head to toe as a result of that, maybe some cannot change this in their culture and lifestyle but despite that they are free thinking, strong and don't take shit from anyone. This is not a problem. The problem is what the culture imposes on women, expects from them as well as the inequality in judgment. Here is a story of some terrible things that happen in the 21st century on our planet and this is part of what we are angry about:


Fatehi, Nazanin Mahabad - the 18 Year old Iranian girl who was sentenced to death for stabbing a rapist who attacked her and her younger niece (they were 17 and 15 at the time). In any western country she would have been acquitted for self defense, but in Iran, there is no such thing as equality for women, and little in the form of Justice. As with many muslim countries - if a woman is raped, she must have deserved it or led the man on. If a woman is not a virgin, she is open to rape as well. The courts have tried to portray her as a loose moraled runaway who stabbed a man for no reason. Worse yet, the law in Iran sets the minimum age for the death penalty at 15 for boys and just 9 years of age for girls! At the time of this writing (June 2006), Nazanin's death sentence has been overturned by the Iranian head of Judiciary Ayatollah Shahroudi. The case will now be sent back to a lower court.

taken from:
http://save.nazanin.googlepages.com/home
http://www.heartlessbitches.com/culture/honorary.shtml

I'm not picking on anyone in particular and I'm not judging you Waseem, the purpose is to raise awareness and sensitivity here. We don't argue what is right and wrong, we know what is.

i also meant all religions.

i think thats not a religion matter,thats just a menthality problem.We men have to try for make more and more woman rights ,and women have to try support men in social and economical life.Men&women the half of same whole,so a healthy and strong soicety never possible without a half.But when thats turn to rights fight or rivalary between men and men not to easy to find cool fixes,thats only matter of to be willing for more goodness and more peacfull tomorrows.men nothing without women and wqomen nothing men,isn't that enough clue for equality?

and thats really not easy to say that,women as a material in the capitalist cultures,and women think they get more rights and freedom,thats really just a mistake...

Yes, Ayhan - it's a mentality and a psychological problem, not exactly religious. A person who does not respect another person, be it a woman, a different nationality or sexual orientation, does not really respect himself, it's a mentality problem. However, religions have been used as means for justification of opression against women because they are patriarchal structures.
We need more smart men like you Ayhan .

I agree with BOTH Catwoman and Waseem_UK . I live in a supposedly “free” society and yet every day feel the effects of a traditionally sexist culture, where women are patronised daily, feminism is regarded as extremist, salaries for women are lower and, those strong women who DO managed to reach manager/director level in their professions are ridiculed. Oppression of any kind is based on cowardess and fear. HOWEVER, free will is just THAT. If someone chooses to adopt a way of live (even it they choose to be oppressed!!) I believe we should accept their decision and respect it.

each country and people has their own cultural backround,and i think thats better to understand realities of the different cultures then to judging it.not easy to feel taste of a unknown food for us till we taste it,or not easy to understand why a people feel very sad for something whe haven't any idea of that,so trying to understand realities of other cultures,relegions or belifs will fix to all problems.

wrong is wrong ,bad is bad my main wasn't to defence wrongs or mistakes kazpol,just i tried to say thta easier to fix problems in time by tolerance,and i believe that equality of women&men on everything.But noone of us can't be blind of the cultural differences,thats mean never to defence some wrongs

MRX67, I am the first in line to embrace different cultures and believe these differences create such a richness to this world.

However, the origins of all our beautiful religions were not oppressive. As Catwoman has said (far more eloquently that I ever could!) “religions have been used as a means for justification of oppression against women because they are patriarchal structures”.

Historically, men have been “superior” in all our cultures and it is interesting to note that in countries where religion is playing a lesser part in daily life, women are becoming less oppressed. It is not the individual religions which are at fault - it is man’s interpretation of them.

yess,but by the developing of positive sciences and international comunactions social structures changing in time even.So thats a problem since deep of history,but i believe that woman rights will be enough soon on most of countries by the supports of we men(No one can't deny to supperior of men on nowhere,thats only a good education matter...)

well, then waseem u force me to tell u, that u r stupid!
did u like it?

It would be such a shame if this interesting thread was locked by the moderators because of childish personal comments...

nothing impossible with tolerance,but when tolerance doors locked then not easy to find trues or understand others?

anyway congrats to kazpol about the determine of woman rights,thats one of biggest problem of all countries...

Haha actually I am such a hypocrite! I have just read the rules through again and notice I have broken more than one, on more than one occasion ! The main ones I've broken consistently () are:-

4. When starting a new thread in the forums, make sure to use an informative title. Meaningless and exaggerated titles should be avoided.
5. Forum messages should have a meaningful content. Please refrain from posting meaningless threads, one word (or short) nonsense posts, or such like

But ... my silly (ok naughty ) posts are JUST THAT! I would hate to see an interesting discussion like this LOCKED!!
take care

i think discuissing this topic better over religions,beliefs,nationalites etc... thats only matter of mebn&women relationships,ofcourse some limits or narrows about woman rights in the religions or cultures,but not an impossible problem when we try to fix it by the guide of our minds

ok, guys, i apologize waseem if i had gone too far in fighting for women rights! and i take back my word!

women rights became my target, its beyond my will!

mrx, and others thanks for the discussion!

anyway, i thank God that turkia is more perspective, developed, tolerant and open in comparison to other islamic countries! so vive la TURKIA!

cheers!

You know Waseem what is offending me most?
That some poeple have two faces in judging things, if they see a girl on the beach topless they say "she is free to do what she wants" but if another one chooses to cover herself they say " she is strict" or maybe "look the poor girl , she is forced to cover herself"
I am a Muslim girl and very pround of being muslim. I am also very proud of my head scarf that I've chosen to put 5 years ago by my own will ,,,
About the bedwein women who are all covered , it's just their traditional wear ,, just like scotch men who wear skirts , does anybody critisize them for this , although it's very weird for those who are not used to?
When Islam ordered the woman to cover herself , it's only for her own pride , for preventing her of being used by those who wants to use her body as sheep good to make a fortune or from these hungry guys in the streets who eats her with their eyes ,,,
At the end of the day , what I would like to make clear is that the world is full of different cultures and we have to learn how to accept them and respect them ,,, this is what I have learned from ISLAM ...

Awwwww and they all lived happily ever after ! Maybe this could be the start of something? !!

Yes Kaz, but you see what happens when people involve themselves. My country is prime example, we don't tolerate innocent people getting killed, or freedoms taken away. But we are then criticized for involving ourselves. I understand it could be how we handle it. No one wants to see war and some people may think there is more motivation than liberty itself. It deeply concerns me regarding the Iranian girl and all innocent people who are reigned by these corrupted governments. I'm not saying we need to conform to their beliefs. I especially have a hard time understanding how anyone could live under those conditions. Sometimes we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. However, don't stop being the person you are Kaz. If everyone had the courage and heart you have, we would all be at peace.

i think thats a part of human nature,most of we us so like to all others have to think or have to live like us.is that a fix,is that justice?why we don't trust to choices of other unless they don't give any trouble to people by their freedoms?how can we judge someone about thier belifs and reflctions of her/his beliefs?who gave this right to us to change others life choices?respect and tolerance aren't the best fixes to live side by side and heart to heart forever?

isn't that better to think a covered young girl and a mini skirt young girl side by side they both respecting eachother choices?

which do you prefer

evet benden

i prefer to tolerance and respect to all choices in the limits,everybody has some natural rights about to make choices about life

I would prefer the one who was a nice person because whatever they are wearing makes no difference.

i'm always against to all sort slaveries,just i'm trying to tell goodness of to respect and tolerance...

isn't that a sort of slavery to when a young girl used for a bikini advertising for a few more money?

It is not the advert or the fact that the girl has advertised in a bikini it is the way this will then be seen by the men that is derogatory.

I should think the girl is chosing to make a lot of money out of the foolishness of men ! And what about male models and male porn stars?? Are THEY exploited too?!

shame on to all slaveries ,women or men never privilageand to be slave of money,isn't that one of slavery to?

anyhow i believe that mostly men main actors on each sort of slaveries,so we men have to give more effort for women rights ,for a full happy tomorrows..

Haha when I see a nice male model in underwear maybe I think sexy boy! But men will see a women model in underwear and think **** can't say because it is horrible nasty language they use to describe women.

turkish women are great but before giving birth
then they can easily get fat...

I'm sorry i thought this was joke about the women being fat when preganant not serious?! I can't say what i want to say but i have to say stop being crazy and let us not talk about this please.

@deli_kızın
i think you are not fat as i mention about turkish women
"very perfect dutch girl" (inanmazsan kadir'e sor ) haha

by the way..is there any turkish woman here not getting fat after giving birth??

bravo dear aenigma

i was just kidding ladies..please not to be offended

aenigma and deli_kızın ... thank ya for protecting me

But btw I noticed that many english women (young or old) are very fat as well. I don't know why.

And the slimmest are the french women in europe

Oooo dear Goner...
The words 'CAN OF WORMS JUST OPENED' spring to mind !!!!

It is fashionable to be slim and french follow fashion maybe more than turkish women. Also when you are comfortable in family life you can put on weight maybe turkish women have more comfortable family life.

Ok, should I dare say this. I was under the impression, the French road their bikes everywhere. Maybe that's why they stay slim. Just a thought.

ah, tea, forget about french madmoisiels, they r witches french ladies always were (r) slim and top fashionable!

GONER!
i have a good idea for turkish women who get fat after the marriage (mltm is rite they spend too much time in the kitchen, no wonder they r fat)!
the turkish women should have internet at home! this will keep them away from the kitchen!
im slim coz i use net! the net sucks me in, so that i forget about eating, i have a huge water can near me!
no gym, no diet, no biking! just excellent entertainment along with slimming

You have a skinny wife Goner????!!!

nope..but she will be

What's the deal with women not holding higher executive jobs in Turkey? Is this because of the culture? People at this forum responded to my other posts they are secretaries or maids. What about the business world, were is the womens place in the business world in Turkey? Does it exist?

if money is the problem, i may find a rich girl -hehe-

in turkiye, women can get every position they want...not just secretaries or maids...

goner, you are such a charmer

to be boss or bossy,needs enough skilfulland who has this skilfull more,she/he has to be boss

People, you are losing focus from the important things, although I can see why discussing who's the boss in bed might be an exciting topic ... however, I hope you're not creating the "boss-slave" situation again!

I notice that some people are discussing whether it's ok to wear scarf or whether it's not ok to wear bikini. As some people pointed out, what you wear is your personal decision. If I want, I will wrap myself head to toe, or I will wear nothing - as long as this is my own decision, and not a result of pressure from society or family to conform to other people's values. What I wear is my decision and nobody has the right to judge me for that.

What we were trying to talk about is the double standards of teh society, where men are allowed more then women, where men are paid more then women for the same kind of job, where men can abuse their wifes without punishment, where women get no support from their families and society when they are abused, where men can have sex freely, but women are killed by their own families for premarital sex, where girls are not allowed to go to school, where women are treated as sex objects and not respected for what they represent. We want to talk about the situation of thousands of women who are killed for extra-marital sex whereas when men do the same things, they are praised for it! We want to talk about the situation of women and girls like that Iranian girl you read the story of! (If you haven't read yet, here it is: http://save.nazanin.googlepages.com/home - copy and paste this link to a new window, clicking on it doesn't work for some reason). This is the real problem!

This is not about wearing scarf or make-ups, this is about WHY we do it! Is it because we choose to be extremely modest, or is it because WE HAVE TO BE? Or is it because the men won't respect us if we are strong, intelligent and attractive - because we might pose a risk to them, and they would have to constantly make effort to keep us with them. So isn't it much easier to just make the women housewifes, let them get fat, unattractive, lower their self-esteem and have them uneducated and we can be sure that they will have to stay at home and please the men, while the men themselves in the meantime don't respect, but enjoy other women freely.

i think to make it generalize for a country,religion or race not much justice,thats the one of most important problem of all countries.There r many bad behaviored men on all over world,and things will be easier and ok when we men understand that life is nothing without women and when women be aware of that men never rivals of their ,how to live hard by one hand thats the same to live unequality of women&men

WHEN U THİNK URSELF AS HALF WOMAN AND HALF MAN ,THEN EASİER TO FİNBD TRUES cHRİSTİNE(HEHE DON'T GET MY MEAN WRONG,İ'M ALLRİGHT ABOUT TO BE MAN)

sorry admins for the personal replies

catwoman, the page u gave seems doesnt exist anymore!
how come u read my thoughts? u just have noted them all down! but it seems to be too sad topic to share it here! ppl here prefer fun, and mutual tolerance which they concluded as: WE TOLERATE UR WOMEN TOPLESS ON THE BEACHES AND TOP MODELS SELLING THEIR BODIES AND U TOLERATE OUR CUSTOMS WHERE WE KEEP THE WOMEN SLAVERY!
and catwoman, we r happy ppl here, come and join our mutual adorators club! we dont want bad sad news!
give us a big smile! and forget about nazin! who cares? thats her problem! 'we shouldnt want other ppl live like us' 'also we shouldnt involve into their lives!' 'coz its their choice to live so'. it seems this was the explanation and justification to all the worries u and i have

I completely agree with you catwomen.

this picture isn't enough message to we humans about love&tolerance against to all opposities?>>>http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/dynoGallDetail.asp?photoID=299306&catID=562&style=&contestCatID=&rowNumber=4&camID=

Ayhan, that is such a sweet picture! I think people don't realize the power in themselves and that they can use this power to do amazing things!

ah.. şunu diyebilirim ki, herkesin kendi içinde bir derdi var. erkeğin sorunları ayrı,kadınların ayrı .

bunu neden sadece türkçe yazdım çünkü türk olanlara ithafen yazılması gerekiyordu...

saygılarımla...

Bearing in mind the criticisms we have all made in this thread about the oppression of women in Turkia, here is an interesting fact I just stumbled upon..

Turkia granted women the right to vote BEFORE Spain and France! Voting for women in Turkia was granted in 1930, Spain in 1931 and France...OMG...1944

Aferin sana Türkiye

Yes, thanks to Atatürk.

As women, we have to be much much more grateful to Atatürk.

Atatürk was such a big present to Türkiye, the reason of our existance, the reason of why we're the only secular muslum dominant country, the reason why we're this modern.

"foreigners are taking their men and its less acceptable for them to marry one!"

Why is this the case? Sorry, i'm new to the forum. I want to go to university in Istanbul next summer and I thought that I would learn Turkish beforehand.

belief freedom one of the most important human rights,but pity some people so like to say many things about others by don't ask em once question even,how we can fix the problems with stick prejudicies?isn't better to say i respect ur all in the rules and isn't better to be watcher on everywhere belief freedom ??thats one of reality human history,that men mostly dominant on women,east or west,never matter,Just we all need more tolerance ,and more understanding without judge each other about our belifes or wearing styles.everything will be nicer when we creat more common sides for share this wonderfull globe

and today is a great opportunity for open a new white page on life notebook,far away from all prejudicies of past and support of more tolerance,peace,respect,love and friendship.Life is a sweet guesthome and we all just guests,so who can say i'm once owner of this great guesthome?

whats meaning of life for men without women and whats meaning for women without men?so aren't we all need each other,so why this rivalary or quarrels?a bit more understanding ,a bit more tolerance,so usefull for creat a paradise world and more eqaulity

dear hanan,

You need to taste the freedom to be able to recognize limitation and restraint. At the end of the day the issue is not whether you've been forced to wear the hijab or not, you probably haven't had the choice here. Was there a time in your life when you wore no scarf? By own choice? Do other women in your family wear the hijab? The pressure on women is subtle and comes in many forms. Do try to defy the social norms and see what happens.. And fyi, Saudi Arabia is not exactly a heaven for women, no women suffrage there.

I agree, I don't believe that it is the woman's choice whether she wishes to wear the scarf or not. It has nothing to do with slavery or whatever...it is just her personal choice.

TURKEY IS BEAUTIFULL, THEY HAVE VERY STRONG VALUES, AND VERY LONG AND STRONG HISTORY, PEOPLES ARE VERY GOOD AND VERY CO-OPERATIVE, ITS WORTH VISITING TURKEY, WHEN EVER I AM IN TURKEY I FEEL LIKE HOME.

HEY HAVE FAMILY BINDINGS AND RESPECT FOR ELDERS.

LONG LIVE TURKEY.........

Please think again ,please dont have an idea without have any knowladge.Turkey is different then Irag Iran and others , its

most of Turkish women have suffer so much but i believe that they r mostly more thxfull to God and happier with simple reasons then the women who have more comfortable life....

Canli,

It is true that there is a misconception at the west on how women are treated in the Muslim world, however, I have traveled myself and had opportunities to see the circumstances under which women live under Islam. After all, I live in a country where significant part of the population is Muslim. Agree, things are not that bad either, in some countries, nevertheless it does not apply to most of the women.

You say Islam and the Koran are not discriminative towards the women, but than please explain how come in most of the Muslim world women are covered and live miserable lives deprived of many freedoms and rights enjoyed by women in the west. Or by saying that traditions instead of Islamic rules prevail in these countries aren’t you saying there is not real Islam in these countries and people are mislead? Please don’t think that I have anything against Islam, Christianity is as depriving and discriminatory to women, but there is one difference and that is that we live in post-Christian world where the faith and the state are far apart.
Islam and Christianity both create an atmosphere of chauvinism by telling men that they are superior to women. Same old story, from Latin America to Afghanistan.

I have been to Egypt and have not got the impression that women there are exactly free from wearing hijab. I think this freedom is only available to few women from the upper class and with affluent backgrounds that anyway do not mingle with normal folks and live in their protected islands of so called freedom. Women in Egypt were invisible and veiled. And pardon me I cannot but laugh to your saying that women have right to choose to wear the veil. I agree that women have the right to wear the veil as they have the right to wear biking if it is their choice, but how many women do you know that have rejected the veil and not been prosecuted by their families, neighbors, societies.
By simply using the Internet and speaking English you demonstrate not to belong to the majority of the women in Egypt who are poor, uneducated and with not real perspectives for future outside the home and the family.

No one is restricting your right to wear the scarf, but being raised surrounded with such a limiting doctrine, what your chances of choosing the other way would have been.

G.

and i think happiness very relative term,and it depends you looking for happiness on what?

happiness is aim,but there r many ways to go this target and i think we all have to respect others way ,unless its not a harmless for others(is it not a fact some people looking for happiness at the bottom drink glasses while another one looking for it in temples?

and i agreed that women more lucky about freedoms on west,but is it enough to be happy all?

gorcvet,

Why do you still insist that we've raised surrounded with a limiting doctrine ?

Why don't you simply accept that we actually had the choice and we've made it ?

İslam said to wear Hijab at almost the age 15 yrs old ''for reasons,not place here to discuss it'',most women here who wear Hijab started to wear it after 20th or 30th,or later,including me,i did at 20th, didn't that means we had the choice not to wear it for a long time,and when they wanted to wear it they did ?

Even we know we should wear it,but we choose not to ?' and i'm not much proud of that tho'

Part of my family live in the West,i don't see they are enjoying more freedom than i am enjoying it here already
So as you see i can judge too
At least i can choose to wear whatever i want,and walk in the street without being rejected for what i wear,if wearing Hijab or whatever
İ can attend to schools,Universities,any place,without a privious judgment upon me for what i wear,or interfer with my personal choice,and order me arround about what i wear!

Excuse me,but that i call it freedom to do whatever you want without effecting other people

And yes,i agree lots of Muslim women in Egypt wear viel,but that was their choice,not forced upon them, they just want to obey ALLAH,and you cann't really argue with them about that

You said you've been to Egypt,you said,you have not got the impression that women there are exactly free from wearing hijab,have you really stopped vieled women at the streets and asked them if they were forced to wear Hijab or not ?

The freedom,is available for women at all classes,upper class or lower one,
Egyptian women are a very strong women among most women,not only by choice,but forced upon us to become strong too
That is cause of the long history of wars which forced on our country,so men were not there to take the responsibility at those times,so women had to take it over

Do you think with such women,anyone could force a simple thing like covering a head,her own head upon her ? UNLESS,UNLESS,she really want to wear it too ?

As i said at my early post,there are some which suffer from bad treatments of men ,but that is not only in Egypt,or Muslim world too, that is all over the world

There are some kind of men,weak men i must add,trying to control,and take over women,mentally,and sometimes physically too
The term Wives abuse,is well known at the Western world too,and you can read statistics about that

You are asking me how many women do i know that have rejected the veil and not been prosecuted by their families, neighbors, societies?

How about my cousins ? How about my late aunt,ALLAH rest her soul,
And i just want to hint,late aunt,means she was really old woman,and still were not wearing Hijab ,or viel,
İt was her choice and she made it too
How about lots of friends,neighbors arround me ?
How about normal people walking in the streets ?

how about MY MOTHER aunts,who wear the scarf at the age of 60 ???

We all have the freedom,and definitely without a question,we have the freedom to wear a scarf or not,after all it is our own head which we cover it or not

İ agree with you,Women in Egypt WERE invisible and veiled ,
But that was in the 30th of the late century,and i don't think you were here in this period of time
At this time really women were invisible and veiled,but then came the 60th,and at this time you wouldn't find a woman here in Egypt wearing Hijab except maybe in the country,on the contrary,they were wearing mini skirts,micro skirts and bikinis...ect
And, yesss,i know lots of them and saw their pictures too
İ wasnn't there at 60th to see with my own eyes,,lol

And now lots of women wear viel,along with others wearing bikinis, as you can see,it was,and still their choice and they've took it through the years

Another thing,i didn't say there is not real Islam in these countries and people are mislead,

İ cann't make that kind of judgment

But,if i say covering the face,and wearing black clothes not written in Quran ,that's i am sure of

And dare anyone to say otherwise

And about being mislead, well i don't think really for anyone who know how to read there could be such an action,misleading i mean

Because knowledge are in the books

İ'm not even saying TV,satellite or what ever,so you would say upper class,but simply the books

And as for İslam, there is Quran,and who want to know his,or her duties,her rights,or his rights,simply can read Quran

But what is happening in other countries,i call it Traditions,Political circumstances,social circumstances,whatever,but not İslam

That is the main point here,to separate between what is happening in some countries,and between how İslam rules

This part of your post ' but than please explain how come in most of the Muslim world women are covered and live miserable lives deprived of many freedoms and rights enjoyed by women in the west '

İ agree with some,and disagree with some,
İt is not happening of most of Muslim world,but again there are some places, where women live miserable lives deprived of many freedoms and rights enjoyed by women in the west
But i guess the reason for that,not religious reasons,but more political reasons

And that is another story !

You are talking about women enjoying freedom in the west,i agree
But,how about Muslims women,how much freedom do they enjoy in the west ?

Before talking about freedom,give it first then talk about it !

Thx