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Seni øzledim or øzleyorum
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10.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 01 Mar 2012 Thu 12:34 am

 

Quoting Mariannehanim

Thanks, everybody. But is it incorrect to use seni özledim in the present?

 

"özledim" is past. But interesting thing is it doesnt have to be over when you use it. If you write someone far away "Seni çok özledim". It means something like I have been missing you.

11.       Abla
3647 posts
 01 Mar 2012 Thu 07:55 am

Quote:gokuyum

If you write someone far away "Seni çok özledim". It means something like I have been missing you.

 

An interesting view. And I wonder why. An action with -di- usually has an end. Maybe the writer sees writing the feeling on paper finishes one period of time and looks at the missing from the receiver´s point of view. Who is in another place, in another time. Aspect is a spiritual thing. (I´m sure the questioner is more confused than she ever was.)

12.       si++
3785 posts
 01 Mar 2012 Thu 10:54 am

What we call "-di past" past in Turkish is a non-future tense. So it may be used for the simple past tense and for the present perfect tense.

 

See also: this thread

13.       Abla
3647 posts
 01 Mar 2012 Thu 12:55 pm

Quote:si++

What we call "-di past" past in Turkish is a non-future tense. So it may be used for the simple past tense and for the present perfect tense.

 

-dik participle is non-future. I can understand that. But don´t you think the time definitions for -di-past are different? This was referred to even in the link you mentioned, si++.

 

The grammar of Göksel and Kerslake says -di past is *)the only tense that denotes absolute time in Turkish. And that point in time is past, that aspect is perfective (the action is finished). This is a quote from the book (sorry, I can´t remember if it was direct or if I edited it but anyway):

 

"-(I)yor, -mAktA and -(y)AcAK are markers of relative tense. They denote absolute present or future only on the absence of another tense marker like -DI."

 

Thus, for instance what is usually called present continuous is actually not present at all, it is only continuous (imperfective aspect). If it talks about now or not is seen from the presence or absense of -di. This very much makes sense to me but I never discussed it with a native, I may be wrong.

 

*) Sorry, on second thought I think -miş past is the same.



Edited (3/1/2012) by Abla
Edited (3/1/2012) by Abla

14.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 01 Mar 2012 Thu 02:24 pm

Another example:

 

I like the movie.

We say: Filmi beğendim.

 

We use past tense. But it doesnt mean we dont like it anymore.

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15.       Abla
3647 posts
 01 Mar 2012 Thu 03:18 pm

Quote:gokuyum

Another example:

 

I like the movie.

We say: Filmi beğendim.

 

We use past tense. But it doesnt mean we dont like it anymore.

 

An example that leaves no room for speculation. -di- past denoting continuing action.

 

I just thought...verbs of feelings and emotions may be exceptional. What we understand by a feeling, I guess, is

1. an emotional sensation (change)

2. the continuing weakness of mind which is the result of the above sensation.

Feelings are difficult to get rid of. Maybe for saying

          Filmi beğendim

it´s enough reason to use -di- past that the emotional sensation happened in the past.

 

Example machine gokuyum, can you think of a similar sentence with a verb that doesn´t mean feeling or emotion?



Edited (3/1/2012) by Abla

16.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 01 Mar 2012 Thu 04:13 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

Example machine gokuyum, can you think of a similar sentence with a verb that doesn´t mean feeling or emotion?

 

Hmm. I can´t think of.

17.       si++
3785 posts
 02 Mar 2012 Fri 09:51 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

-dik participle is non-future. I can understand that. But don´t you think the time definitions for -di-past are different? This was referred to even in the link you mentioned, si++.

 

Definition from: here

A nonfuture tense (abbreviated nfut) is a grammatical tense that distinguishes a verbal action as having taken place in times past or times present, as opposed to future tense.

 

The grammar of Göksel and Kerslake says -di past is *)the only tense that denotes absolute time in Turkish. And that point in time is past, that aspect is perfective (the action is finished). This is a quote from the book (sorry, I can´t remember if it was direct or if I edited it but anyway):

 

As for "that point in time is past", here are some examples:

- Ali nerede görebiliyormusun?

- Şu sağ taraftaki grubun içinde, üzerined mavi bir tişört var

- Evet gördüm (Time is the moment of utterance i.e. "now")

 

Or Ali is in the kitchen and his Mum who is in living hall calls him:

- Ali buraya gelir misin?

- Geldim (He has not come yet, but means I am coming right away)

 

 

"-(I)yor, -mAktA and -(y)AcAK are markers of relative tense. They denote absolute present or future only on the absence of another tense marker like -DI."

 

Thus, for instance what is usually called present continuous is actually not present at all, it is only continuous (imperfective aspect). If it talks about now or not is seen from the presence or absense of -di. This very much makes sense to me but I never discussed it with a native, I may be wrong.

 

*) Sorry, on second thought I think -miş past is the same.

 

 

18.       Abla
3647 posts
 02 Mar 2012 Fri 12:52 pm

So interesting examples in this thread. But still I am not convinced the use of -di past for present and ongoing actions is anything more but marginal occasions. Exceptions can be found in every field of grammar and often they can be explained.

You can convince me more.

Quote:si++

- Ali nerede görebiliyormusun?

- Şu sağ taraftaki grubun içinde, üzerined mavi bir tişört var

- Evet gördüm (Time is the moment of utterance i.e. "now")

 

What is past doesn´t have to be ten years ago. The human reaction time (on average 0,5 - 1 sec) is enough. (Traffic psychologists say it is a long time: a vehicle that moves 80 kmph moves 11,1 metres in half a second. During that time you can send a pedestrian crossing the street to the hereafter.)

Quote:si++

Or Ali is in the kitchen and his Mum who is in living hall calls him:

- Ali buraya gelir misin?

- Geldim (He has not come yet, but means I am coming right away)

 

This shows how rich the aspect system is in human language. Talk is not only about real points in time but also imagined, planned, scheduled. On the level of thought it is no problem for us to place ourselves in another time. Good that this was brought up.

 

 

19.       si++
3785 posts
 02 Mar 2012 Fri 01:26 pm

 

Quoting Abla

What is past doesn´t have to be ten years ago. The human reaction time (on average 0,5 - 1 sec) is enough. (Traffic psychologists say it is a long time: a vehicle that moves 80 kmph moves 11,1 metres in half a second. During that time you can send a pedestrian crossing the street to the hereafter.)

 

Isn´t it called present perfect?

 

Earlier I had said this:

So it may be used for the simple past tense and for the present perfect tense.

 

20.       Abla
3647 posts
 02 Mar 2012 Fri 01:56 pm

"Present perfect, a combination of past tense and perfect aspect." Sorry, I was not familiar with this term until now and it skipped my attention. The action is in the past but our attention is in its consequences. It is a fresh view to it at least for me and I guess to any English speaker also. At least it explains these examples where present feelings are expressed with -di past.

Thanks.

 

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