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standard word order
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| 20. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 12:21 am |
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Quoting Taksimdeyim: Quote: Even though "neden" is usually used instead of "...yüzünden", "dolayısıyla", "bu bakımdan", "bunun için", "sebebiyle", "verb base + -diğinden" by many people it is a wrong use. It is a question word. |
Hmmm... I don't think it's being used as "yüzünden," "dolayısıyla," "bu bakımdan," "bunun için," or "sebebiyle" here.
I think that would be "bu nedenle."
I think it's being used here quite simply as "why."
Well, interesting problem. Any bilingual people hang out around here? I'll bet Annie in Istanbul could explain this conundrum. |
The right suffix is, of course, added, when used instead of the above adverbs: 'bu nedenle', 'nedeniyle', 'bu nedenden' or 'bu nedenden ötürü / dolayı' etc. But that's not the point.
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| 21. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 12:42 am |
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A few more examples illustrating the relationship between "question words", the interrogative mı, and the question mark:
Kim bunu yaptı?
Kim bunu yaptığını biliyorum.
Kim bunu yaptığını biliyor musun?
Bu kitap, ne kadar?
Ne kadar güzel bir kiz!
Neyi istiyorsunuz?
Onun neyi istediğini biliyor musun?
Hayır, neyi istediğini söylemedi.
Sen nasılsin?
Nasıl sen böyle devram edebildin?
Nasıl senin böyle devram edebildiğini bilmiyorum!
Hangi otobüs Taksım'e gidiyor?
Bu otobüs Taksim'e gidiyor mu?
Biz Ayşe'ye hangi otobüse binmeyi gerekeceğini soracağiz.
Biz Ayşe'ye, "Hangi otobüse binmeliyiz?" diye sorduk.
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| 22. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 12:56 am |
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Quote: But that's not the point. |
I'm not trying to be snarky... but I've reread your post, and I think maybe I still don't understand you then.
You suggest that neden in this sentence is used incorrectly, and that the structures you list would be more correct. I guess I just don't see it:
Sure, the sentence could be rewritten to say instead of "I know why he did it," something like "I know for what reasons he did it..."
Maybe that's a stylistic difference. But I don't see that original construction - with neden - is incorrect. At least not for the reasons you suggest.
Could you please tell me if you are a native speaker?
Thanks.
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| 23. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 01:17 am |
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Quoting Taksimdeyim: Quote: But that's not the point. |
I'm not trying to be snarky... but I've reread your post, and I think maybe I still don't understand your point then.
You suggest that neden in this sentence is used incorrectly, and that the structures you list would be more correct.
You could be right, but I'm unconvinced. Could you please tell me if you are a native speaker?
Thanks. |
Yes, I am a native speaker of Turkish. We, native speakers, usually use the question word 'neden' instead of the word 'sebep' and those adverbs. However, it is unfortunately one of the prevailed incorrect uses. That's why I am being sensitive about that such incorrect uses eliminate some words from the language by time.
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| 24. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 01:21 am |
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Oops - we cross posted a little there. I thought I'd explain myself better.
OK... well, if you're a Turk, can you offer me some insight on this double interrogative thing? I've seen it before, and it throws me a little:
"I now know why who did it."
It's a little weird to my ear: I guess I think it needs a conjunction... like "Ben şimdi neden ve kimin bunu yaptığını anladım.
But I've seen it before... any thoughts?
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| 25. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 01:36 am |
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Quoting Taksimdeyim: Oops - we cross posted a little there. I thought I'd explain myself better.
OK... well, if you're a Turk, can you offer me some insight on this double interrogative thing? I've seen it before, and it throws me a little:
"I now know why who did it."
It's a little weird to my ear: I guess I think it needs a conjunction... like "Ben şimdi neden ve kimin bunu yaptığını anladım.
But I've seen it before... any thoughts? |
Ben şimdi bunu kimin, niçin yaptığını anladım.
('niçin' sounds better. There must be a pause between 'kimin' and 'niçin', when reading or speaking.)
or
Ben şimdi bunu kimin yaptığını ve de niçin yaptığını anladım.
but
I think 'Ben şimdi bunu kimin ve niçin yaptığını anladım' doesn't sound OK. May be it is because of the suffix '-in' with 'kim'.
but
The following sentence sounds OK:
Bunu sana kim ve niçin verdi.
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| 26. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 01:55 am |
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OK...
So it sounds a little wierd to you, too.
Perhaps the answer to the original problem then, confining ourselves to the words our ridler provided us, is:
Ben şimdi kimin, neden o şeyi yaptığını andladım.
??
I like niçin better, too. Which is encouraging for me, at least: I'm not sure why it sounds better to me, but if it does - and you as a native speaker agree - then this language must be sinking in a little.
Thanks for your insight!
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| 27. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 07:07 am |
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Quoting Taksimdeyim: I'll take a wack at it:
"Ben şimdi neden kimin o şeyi yaptığını anladım."
I would translate that as, "I now understand who did that thing and why.
I'm not very confident that I understand how Turks include two interrogatives in a sentence in this fashion. The sentence more literally translated seems to be:
"I now why who that thing did understood."
"Why who..." Is this right? Can this be done in Turkish?
Looking forward to the answer from somebody smarter than me. |
Yes it can be done.
Even more is possible.
Kim anladı şimdi benzettiğini kimi nerede neden kimin?
Any go?
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| 28. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 07:45 am |
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Quoting MarioninTurkey: How about making it into a question:
Ben kimin o şeyi yaptığını neden şimdi anladım?
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It was not a question sentence. However your ordering is correct with another meaning.
Why is it now that I understand who did that thing?
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| 29. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 09:57 am |
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si++,
Thanks for agreeing with my alternative! I wasn't trying to correct the other (poistive meaning) of the sentence, I just was trying to suggest an alternative that would be equally correct.
Anyway, it started a great discussion about neden and questions.
On the subject of whether you can use neden as reason, for the official answer on what is good Turkish, and what is a colloquial error, I normally look at www.tdk.gov.tr, the site of the Turkish Language Commission. They have the following in their dictionary:
nedeniyle (zarf: nedeni'yle) -den ötürü, -den dolayı, dolayısıyla, sebebiyle, hasebiyle, haysiyetiyle.
In their yazım kilavuzu (guide to writing) they also show
neden neden bilimi neden sonra neden tanrıcı
neden tanrıcılık,-ğı nedeniyle nedenli nedenli nedensiz
nedense nedensel nedensellik ilkesi nedensellik,-ği
nedensiz nedensizlik,-ği
as acceptable forms of derivatives of neden.
So nedeniyle is not bad Turkish - it is approved by the TDK.
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| 30. |
30 Jul 2007 Mon 07:43 pm |
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OK...
Kim anladı şimdi benzettiğini kimi nerede neden kimin?
Here goes...
Kim şimdi nerede neden kimin kimi bezettiğini anladı?
Who now where why who's resembling who understood?
Or...
Who now understands who and where who resembles who?
I think so, anyways... do you have any easy riddles?
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