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-ce and -ince suffix
(14 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
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1.       izah
107 posts
 04 Oct 2009 Sun 03:21 am

Ý´ll tried to figure out all the meanings of the -ce/-ca suffix. I come upon this a lot when I try to read turkish, so I wonder whether I understand well, or not.
I will sum up here what I collected, would somebody like to correct me and add the meanings I mýssed?
Thanks a lot in advance!

-ce/-ca/-çe/-ça

1.
rather, -(ish)ly:
hoþça = pleasantly
çocukça = childish
soðukça = rather cold

2.
language of ...
Hollandaca, Norveççe

3.
In opinion of (somebody)
Bence
Erkan´ca

4.
gerundive (verb + -dik) + çe
different meanings...
gittikçe = gradually
oldukça = rather
as long as, whenever: dikkatlý sürdükçe, arabamý kullanabilirsin
unless (in a negative sentence): sen baðýrmadýkça, duyamam.

5.
verb + (y)in + ce
I´m not sure about this one at all. Maybe its just one single suffix ´ince´ in stead of in + ce... After a lot of reading I think I understand the meaning, but me, myself, I shouldnt know when to use it because for me it looks similar to other suffýxes...

Examples I found:
Akþam olunca iþten döndü = when it was evening he came back from work
Zamaný gelince göreceksiniz = when the time will be there you will see
Onu anlayýnca sustu = when he understood he remained silent.
Onlarýn yanýna gelince arabayý durdurdu = when the car was next to them it stoped

Maybe my englýsh translations arent very beautýfull, but I trýed to look for one kýnd of trnaslation: I choose the ´when ...´ type. Ýf this is right and I understood these sentences right I wonder when to use thýs suffýx and when the gerundive or the -en/-an suffix of the verb....?
Ý found this sentences as well (ýn my chýldrens books:

Onlarý gören kurbaða suya atlýyordu = when the frog saw them he jumped in the water


Kuþannesinin kanatlarý altýna sýðýnýnca ormadan gelen seslerin dinmesini bekler = when he ýs having shelter under birdmothers wings he waýts for the voýces comýng from the forest to stop.

In this last sentence you have all three forms I mentioned above...! When do you use wých one??

For example:
when I want to say:
´the týme that is coming´
which one do I need:

zamaný gelince
zamanýn gelmesi
gelen zaman


Greetings from a confused learner

2.       gernas
58 posts
 04 Oct 2009 Sun 03:38 am

"gelen zaman"  should be the answer..

what u have learnt is maybe more than a teacher of turkish can explain...

 

 



Edited (10/4/2009) by gernas

3.       izah
107 posts
 08 Oct 2009 Thu 02:49 pm

Does somebody have a more extensive reply on thýs material?

thnx ýn advance!



Edited (10/8/2009) by izah

4.       scalpel
1472 posts
 08 Oct 2009 Thu 05:02 pm

 

Quoting izah

Ý´ll tried to figure out all the meanings of the -ce/-ca suffix. I come upon this a lot when I try to read turkish, so I wonder whether I understand well, or not.
I will sum up here what I collected, would somebody like to correct me and add the meanings I mýssed?
Thanks a lot in advance!

-ce/-ca/-çe/-ça

1.
rather, -(ish)ly: (noun+ca = adverb/adjective)
hoþça = pleasantly
çocukça = childish => childishly (çok çocukça davrandý = he/she acted very childishly)
soðukça = rather cold => coldly (soðukça davrandý= he/she acted coldly)

2.
language of ...
Hollandaca, Norveççe

3.
In opinion of (somebody)
Bence
Erkan´ca

4.
gerundive (verb + -dik) + çe (verb+dik+ce => adverb)
different meanings...
gittikçe = gradually
oldukça = rather
as long as, whenever: dikkatlý sürdükçe, arabamý kullanabilirsin
unless (in a negative sentence): sen baðýrmadýkça, duyamam. 


5.
verb + (y)in + ce
I´m not sure about this one at all. Maybe its just one single suffix ´ince´ in stead of in + ce... After a lot of reading I think I understand the meaning, but me, myself, I shouldnt know when to use it because for me it looks similar to other suffýxes...

(1) gelince => when coming (senin evine gelince=>when coming to your house)
(2) gelince => when (person/thing) come(s) //came

(gelince göreceksin =>you will see when you come)
Examples I found:
Akþam olunca iþten döndü = when it was evening (when evening came)he came back from work
Zamaný gelince göreceksiniz = when the time will be there you will see (you will see when the time comes)
Onu anlayýnca sustu = when he understood he remained silent.
Onlarýn yanýna gelince arabayý durdurdu = when the car was next to them it stoped

Maybe my englýsh translations arent very beautýfull, but I trýed to look for one kýnd of trnaslation: I choose the ´when ...´ type. Ýf this is right and I understood these sentences right I wonder when to use thýs suffýx and when the gerundive or the -en/-an suffix of the verb....?
Ý found this sentences as well (ýn my chýldrens books:

Onlarý gören kurbaða suya atlýyordu = when the frog saw them he jumped in the water


Kuþannesinin kanatlarý altýna sýðýnýnca ormadan gelen seslerin dinmesini bekler = when he ýs having shelter under birdmothers wings he waýts for the voýces comýng from the forest to stop.

In this last sentence you have all three forms I mentioned above...! When do you use wých one??

For example:
when I want to say:
´the týme that is coming´
which one do I need:

zamaný gelince
zamanýn gelmesi
gelen zaman


Greetings from a confused learner

 

 Hope this helps.

5.       scalpel
1472 posts
 08 Oct 2009 Thu 05:10 pm

..missed something...

onlarca, yüzlerce, binlerce,etc.

yüzlerce adam = hundreds of men

onlarca problem = tens of problems

(öldürmek için)milyonlarca sebep=millions of reasons (to kill) Big smile

6.       izah
107 posts
 08 Oct 2009 Thu 07:59 pm

Yes that helps a lot! thank you very much!

7.       izah
107 posts
 08 Oct 2009 Thu 08:03 pm

And I´ll try to make up some sentences with -ince, and the gerund and the gerundive and will post them here for correction

8.       scalpel
1472 posts
 09 Oct 2009 Fri 04:13 am

 

Quoting izah



Maybe my englýsh translations arent very beautýfull, but I trýed to look for one kýnd of trnaslation: I choose the ´when ...´ type. Ýf this is right and I understood these sentences right I wonder when to use thýs suffýx and when the gerundive or the -en/-an suffix of the verb....? (it is not easy to explain it using English grammar rules but I will give a go...and I am afraid it will be a bit complicated...) 
Ý found this sentences as well (ýn my chýldrens books:

Onlarý gören kurbaða suya atlýyordu = when the frog saw them he jumped in the water

verb+en/an = verb+ing /present participle (noun/adjective) (since they are really adjectives,they are used before all nouns in the same way that adjectives are used)

for example, "yeþil kurbaða" (=green frog) and "gelen kurbaða" are formed in the same way: adj+noun

I hope the following examples will help you more.

yüksek ateþle(1) baþlayan(2) hastalýk(3) = a disease(3)beginning(2)with high fever(1)

borulardan(1) kaçan(2) gaz(3) = gas(3) escaping(2) from the pipes(1)

kumlu toprakta(1) yetiþen(2) aðaç (3) = a tree(3) growing(2) in sandy soil(1)

Now let´s try to put your sentence in English:

onlarý(1) gören(2) kurbaða(3) suya atlýyordu(4) = (every) frog(3) seeing(2) them(1) was jumping in the water(4)

 


Kuþannesinin kanatlarý altýna sýðýnýnca ormadan gelen seslerin dinmesini bekler = when he ýs having shelter under birdmothers wings he waýts for the voýces comýng from the forest to stop.
(a correction: kuþannesinin => kuþ, annesinin)

=>bird when sheltering under the wings of its mother,waits for the sounds coming from the forest to stop.

annesi.n.in kanatlarý (wings of his/her/its mother)

sesler.in dinme.s.i (stop of the sounds)

are noun compounds (noun compounds used so widely in Turkish)

why dinmesi takes another -i? (dinmesini)

Because it is direct object here. 
In this last sentence you have all three forms I mentioned above...! When do you use wých one??  

 

 

9.       izah
107 posts
 11 Oct 2009 Sun 04:56 pm

wouw! this is really clear explained! how nice, because its really difficult for me

like the compounds, with for example two nouns, I´m allright with them, but when its with a verb/gerund its complicated for me. Probably cause in ducht there´s no equivalent... we use adverbial clauses...

 

thnx a lot again!



Edited (10/11/2009) by izah

10.       scalpel
1472 posts
 12 Oct 2009 Mon 03:48 am

 

Quoting izah

...

In this last sentence you have all three forms I mentioned above...! When do you use wých one??

For example:
when I want to say:
´the týme that is coming´
which one do I need:

zamaný gelince
zamanýn gelmesi
gelen zaman

 

You can also see -en/-an in adjective clauses answering the question who, whose,whom,which.

 

Look at these examples:

 

birden fazla çocuk(1) sahibi olan(2) anne babalar(3) =parents(3) who have(2) more than one child(1).

düþüncelerini(1) ifade eden(2) bir yazar(3) = an author(3) who expresses(2) his opinions(1).


artýk kullanýlmayan(1) yöntemler(2) = methods(2) which are no longer used(1).

bilimsel yöntemlerle(1) çözülmesi gereken(2) bir problem(3)=a problem(3) which must be solved(2) by scientific methods(1).


düþüncesi(1) sorulan(2) herkes(3) = everyone(3) whose opinion(1) is asked(2)

anne babasý(1) ölmüþ olan(2) çocuk(3) = a child(3) whose parents(1) are dead(2)

 

 

11.       izah
107 posts
 12 Oct 2009 Mon 08:30 pm

Thnx again!

But.... i still have questions....

 

My understanding while reading is increasing a lot by the explanations. however, when i try to make up sentences of my own, i imdediatly become confused again about which kind to choose when...

 

back to the:

(ormandan) gelen seslerin dinmesi

the stopping of the coming sounds, if i´m right.

 

if  "gelen sesler" means "coming sounds" does "dinen sesler" also means stopping sounds?

and

if "seslerin dinmesi" means "stopping of the sounds" does "seslerin gelmesi" also means "coming of the sounds"?

 

if this is right, i still dont know when to use which one...

like when i want to say something like:

 

My in France living mother, or the in France living of my mother .... (I know, no proper English, but english will take an extra clause here, something like: my mother, who lives in France, ...[rest of sentence])

can I say:

annemin Fransada yaþamasý   ?

and also:

Fransada yaþayan annem   ?

or even:

annemin Fransada yaþadýðý   ?

 

Are all three of this frgaments proper Turkish? (But maybe used in different situations) or are they wrong?

If they´re right can you (anybody) show me examples with its use?

 

12.       izah
107 posts
 12 Oct 2009 Mon 09:20 pm

I tried to make sentences... But its quýte confusing so sorry if I mixed up...

But maybe some of them are right... (I really hope so)

 


Okuyan öðrenciler kütüphanedeydiler.
The studying students were in the library

Kütüphanede okuyan öðrencilere baktým.
I looked at studying students in the library.

Öðrencilerin okumasý faydasýz çünkü sýnavý dündaydý.
The studying of the students is useless because the exam took place yesterday.

Öðretmen öðrencinin okumasýný isteklendirdi.
The teacher motivated the studying of the student (the student to study).

Öðretmen öðrencilerin okuduðunu isteklendirdi.
The teacher motivated the studying of the student (the student to study).

Öðrencilerin nerede okuduðunu biliyor musun?
Do you know where the students are studying?

 

Öðrencilerin okumasý nerede biliyor musun?
Do you know where the studying of the students takes place?

 

Kütüphanede öðrencilerin okuduðunu gördüm.
I saw the students studying (the studying of the students) in the library.



Edited (10/12/2009) by izah
Edited (10/12/2009) by izah
Edited (10/12/2009) by izah

13.       scalpel
1472 posts
 13 Oct 2009 Tue 03:11 am

 

Quoting izah

Thnx again!

But.... i still have questions....

 

My understanding while reading is increasing a lot by the explanations. however, when i try to make up sentences of my own, i imdediatly become confused again about which kind to choose when...

 

back to the:

(ormandan) gelen seslerin dinmesi

the stopping of the coming sounds, if i´m right.

Yes,you are right.

if  "gelen sesler" means "coming sounds" does "dinen sesler" also means stopping sounds?

and

if "seslerin dinmesi" means "stopping of the sounds" does "seslerin gelmesi" also means "coming of the sounds"?

Yes.

if this is right, i still dont know when to use which one...

Good question. You can know it from the English sentence...(see my previous post about adjective clause)

like when i want to say something like:

 

My in France living mother, or the in France living of my mother .... (I know, no proper English, but english will take an extra clause here, something like: my mother, who lives in France, ...[rest of sentence])

my mother,who lives in France  is an adjective clause(relative clause) English adjective clauses which begin with who and contain a verb always translated in Turkish by using -en/an form of a Turkish verb. (Turkish adjectives always placed before the word that they describe)

Fransa´da yaþayan annem = my mother,who lives in France

Here are two more examples:

Gitar çalabilen bir kýz tanýyorum = I know a girl who can play guitar

Film yýldýzýna benzeyen bir kýz gördüm = I saw a girl who looked like a movie star


can I say:

annemin Fransada yaþamasý   ?

and also:

Fransada yaþayan annem   ?

or even:

annemin Fransada yaþadýðý   ?

 

Are all three of this frgaments proper Turkish? (But maybe used in different situations) or are they wrong? 

No, they are not wrong.

If they´re right can you (anybody) show me examples with its use?

Here are the examples:

annemin Fransa´da yaþamasý için haklý nedenleri var = my mother has good reasons to live in France

annemin Fransa´da yaþadýðý kaza ... = the accident my mother had in France 

 

 

 

14.       scalpel
1472 posts
 13 Oct 2009 Tue 03:41 pm

 

Quoting izah

I tried to make sentences... But its quýte confusing so sorry if I mixed up...

But maybe some of them are right... (I really hope so)

 

You use the suffixes correctly.There are only two grammatical errors.Rewrite the sentences using the verb ders çalýþ- instead of oku- (for example,okuyan=>ders çalýþan)


Okuyan öðrenciler kütüphanedeydiler.

The studying students were in the library

Kütüphanede okuyan öðrencilere baktým.

I looked at studying students in the library.

Öðrencilerin okumasý faydasýz çünkü sýnavý dündaydý.

sýnavý =>sýnavlarý(their exam)or sýnav(the exam)

dündaydý=> dündü

The studying of the students is useless because the exam took place yesterday.

Öðretmen öðrencinin okumasýný isteklendirdi. (teþvik etti is more common)
The teacher motivated the studying of the student (the student to study).

Öðretmen öðrencilerin okuduðunu isteklendirdi.

=>okumasýný=>ders çalýþmasýný

 

The teacher motivated the studying of the student (the student to study).

Öðrencilerin nerede okuduðunu biliyor musun?

 

Do you know where the students are studying?

 

Öðrencilerin okumasý nerede biliyor musun?

In this type of sentence nerede should be followed by -dik form of a verb:

okumasý nerede=> nerede okuduklarýný (ders çalýþtýklarýný)
Do you know where the studying of the students takes place?

 

Kütüphanede öðrencilerin okuduðunu gördüm.

I saw the students studying (the studying of the students) in the library.

 

 

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