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Armenians-Turks
(249 Messages in 25 pages - View all)
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40.       vineyards
1954 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 02:53 pm

Yilgun, if you did not include that final statement in your article, some of your readers would get curious about the sources that you referred to. Claiming that the enemy of the Turks are the enemy of the entire world is not only wrong but also utterly ridiculous.

Did everyone base their arguments on nationalistic feelings, there would be no need for science at all. We all want to get rid of the patriotic aspects of history and favour scientific objectivity instead, no matter how difficult to achieve in real life that would be.

If we were to write history with a notion like yours, what difference would there be between that and the legends or annals of the distant past?

41.       yilgun-7
1326 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 03:05 pm

The real world history and European History between 1750 -1923 will show and give you and prove the answer together with historical documents clearly...


42.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 03:25 pm

Quoting vineyards:


If we were to write history with a notion like yours, what difference would there be between that and the legends or annals of the distant past?



I think you should pour us both a glass of wine, because I AGREE WITH YOU today!

Also agree with your previous comment - I am ashamed of my country's actions, past and present, but would rather they were openly acknowledged and discussed than buried and denied.

Instead of acting like ostrichs and burying their heads in the sand, Turkey should allow this subject to be properly investigated and proved or disproved once and for all. The subject would then be forgotten.

By continuing to ignore or deny this matter, people have the impression that Turks are hiding something and denying history which, unfortunately, does more to taint the impression of Turkey globally than being open about historical atrocities would.

43.       fearless
14 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 03:38 pm

Quoting yilgun-7:

And please read JUSTIN MCCARTY books and articles on the Russian Armenians and the Russian Army against the Ottoman Empire and Turkish People and the real massacre in 1915 and "The Other Side of the Falsified Genocide"...
JUSTIN MCCARTY is an author and historian and university professor in the USA.
And read Dr.CAROLINE FINKEL, an American -the USA- historian on Ottoman Empire...

read these real historians and scientists if you want to learn real history and real historic documents...

"THE ENEMY OF THE TURKS ARE THE ENEMY OF THE MANKIND"...



Yılgün

If all I am going to learn by reading those books you mentioned is ""THE ENEMY OF THE TURKS ARE THE ENEMY OF THE MANKIND" then, no, thanks.

You should realize that you are making a total loser of yourself with such silly quotes. I'm really curious about your objective in saying that. Do you expect those who you consider "enemy of Turks" to read such a quote and say "Oh! I've been on the wrong path! I am not an enemy of the mankind, and so from now on I will love the Turks too!" and repent or what?

As to the truth about this matter, the Armenians killed Turks and helped Allied Countries with the courage they got mainly from the Russians in order to establish an Armenian State inside Anatolia, reaching the Mediterranean Sea , and the Turkish people killed them back. Then they were forced out of the country by military force in order to stop the internal bleeding in the body of the Turkish State which was struggling for its survival. Unfortunately during the journey those who could not stand the extreme difficulties died. It was not a genocide and considering the conditions the Turkish state was in, it was the best and rightest thing to do at the time, as confessed by the first prime minister of Armenia Hovannes Kacaznunni in his report presented in the Dashnak Party Congress held in Bucharest in 1923:
"We mutinied against the Turks. We took sides with the Allies, the enemies of the Turks. What we demanded from the Turks was "an Armenia from one sea to another". We killed and we were killed. The forced migration was righteous and necessary. We could not see the facts and we were the starters of the incidents. The national struggle of the Turks was righteous. They made the Turkey Armenians subject to a forced migration in summer and autumn of 1915. The Turks knew well what they were doing and there is not a matter they should be regretful about. This was the most proper and certain thing to do.

Complaining about destiny and searching for the reasons of disasters outside ourselves is a pathetic situation. This has been a characteristic feature of our national politics which the Dashnaksoution Party was also not able to avoid."

What more is there to say after that?
The book containing this report is first published in Russia in Tiflis (Tbilisi). A censored version was also published in USA under the name of "The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaksoution) Has Nothing To Do Anymore" in New York in 1955.
This historical report is -of course- banned in Armenia. The Dashnaks in Europe also confiscated the books. Translations in various languages in European libraries have been confiscated. The books name is available in the catalogs but the books themselves are not to be found on the shelves.
The Russian issue is still available in the Lenin library in Moscow.

Regards,

____________________________________________________________
I'll climb that hill in my own way,
Just wait a while for the right day...

44.       MrX67
2540 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 03:39 pm

to stick on history's pages and to use historical materials for the political aims.İf thats an usefull method i think never possible to find an innocent nation or country,Coz history2s pages full with planty similar humanity crimes,and i think sometime to be intellectual gives more harm then to goodness for the falks and i believe that knowladge is nice and usefull when way to peace&friendship.And not easy to understand why some silly people like or prefer to creat discussions with the bad and sad experiences of history while the more peacfull and friendly tomorrows waiting us on the future.peace always better then hate against whatever happened in the deep of history....AND İ BELİEVE THAT TO BE PEACFULL SHEEPHERD ALWAYS BETTER THEN TO BE HATEFULL İNTELLECTUAL....

45.       teaschip
3870 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 04:04 pm

Why is it significant whether the US government “condemns” the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians?

It is significant because to this day, while most of the rest of the world acknowledges the historical truth of the Armenian Genocide, Turkey continues to deny that it happened. Turkish Penal Code Section 301 actually makes it a crime in Turkey to discuss the murders of the Armenians as an “insult to Turkishness.”

Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was recently gunned down in the street by a nationalistic Turk. Before his death he was prosecuted under section 301 for writing about the Armenian Genocide. His son, as well, was just prosecuted under that same law for publishing some of his father’s writings on the Genocide. You cannot turn a blind eye to a nation that refuses to admit a horrific period of its past.

Denial is the last and final stage of Genocide. To allow a country such as Turkey to rewrite history and deny the truth on a matter of such great magnitude is to allow those who would commit atrocities in places like Darfur to believe that they can get away with their evil. Hitler looked back at the Armenian Genocide and said, “Who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?”

When a country such as the US sends a loud and clear statement that any Genocide, even one that occurred 90 years ago, is unacceptable, the world will listen and Turkey may just take an unpleasant yet honest look at its history.

To me the question is Turkey, really, what’s the problem with admitting it was a genocide? It’s not like Japan went under when it admitted the horrendous things they did to the Korean, Chinese, and Japanese “comfort women” from WWII.


46.       MrX67
2540 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 05:08 pm

we r the citizens of a great country which has a password ''PEACE İN COUNTRY ,PEACE ON WORLD',so who are blaming us with genocide they have to look at theirs today,such a shame to blamed from some countries with a humanity crime while their backrounds full with many tears and bloods????Yes Genocide is a humanity crime and noone never can deny of that,but whats the profit of to creat new discussions and to creat new strong nationalist behaviours?so everyone have to be a bit calm and have to think abit more while talking about history,we all have to work for only peace,no need to be history scientist ,to be a bit loving will fix all problems......

47.       C&K
22 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 07:54 pm

I only want to say:

The wars are created to obtain the power of fews politics people, and never will finish coz the illness of "power and avarice" does not have end...

We must forgive the grandfather's mistakes.

How many generations more will inherit the hatred of the errors of the past?

MAKE LOVE, NO WAR!

48.       teaschip
3870 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 08:10 pm

Quoting MrX67:

we r the citizens of a great country which has a password ''PEACE İN COUNTRY ,PEACE ON WORLD',so who are blaming us with genocide they have to look at theirs today,such a shame to blamed from some countries with a humanity crime while their backrounds full with many tears and bloods????Yes Genocide is a humanity crime and noone never can deny of that,but whats the profit of to creat new discussions and to creat new strong nationalist behaviours?so everyone have to be a bit calm and have to think abit more while talking about history,we all have to work for only peace,no need to be history scientist ,to be a bit loving will fix all problems......



To compare the Armenian Genocide of 1915, to the INVASION of another country (Iraq) is plain idiotic…

How is it different? Because, for one, Americans can speak up about the deaths in Iraq. We can freely congregate, protest, call our reps, demand something (even if we don’t get it and the senseless war contines). It’s different because in Turkey, unless you deny the genocide, you’re suspect of anti-Turkish sentiment. Freedom, freedom of thought, of debate, of rage, of resolution. That’s the difference.

Come one for God’s sake.. we’re talking about a genocide here! Put politics aside and take the humanistic step. When is it gonna be a good time to recognize the genocide one wonders? This has been going on for years. It’s never a good time?

There should never be an excuse for denying a painful genocide. If the Germans were denying the Holocaust, it would literally be the same as helping them cover it up and disrespecting millions of people just for our own agenda. Its plain immoral and wrong.



49.       kaddersokak
130 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 08:13 pm

What has the House Committee achieved?

by Sahin Alpay



On Oct. 11 the Committee on Foreign Relations of the US House of Representatives decided by a vote of 27 to 21 to adopt a draft resolution that condemns the “Armenian genocide.” A similar draft resolution was adopted by the committee in 2000, but then-President Clinton had succeeded in persuading the Republican speaker to withdraw the measure. President Bush, however, seems unlikely to convince the Democratic speaker of the House, who is expected to take the resolution to the floor of the House before Nov. 22. The Senate is unlikely to pass a similar measure even if it is adopted by the House, and the resolution is non-binding. Still, it is worth asking what the House committee has achieved.
For history: During the World War I Armenian nationalists backed by Russia attempted to establish an independent Armenian state in Ottoman territory. They killed a large number of Turks and Muslims in this effort. The Ottoman rulers responded by ordering forced deportation of all Armenian subjects (with the exception mainly of those residing in Istanbul and Izmir) to the Syrian desert. According to objective sources nearly 650,000 Armenians perished on the way due to diseases, starvation and massacres by security forces and bandits. An equal number survived the deportation and migrated to the West, settling mainly in the US and France. Some were saved by converting to Islam. The committee decision does not prove that the Ottoman rulers ordered mass killing of Armenians. Some historians will still consider the event only as a great human tragedy caused by war, and others will still call it a genocide of the Armenians by the Turks.

For the US: The committee vote shows once more that lobbies play an important role in American politics, that the Armenian lobby is growing stronger and that G.W. Bush is a lame-duck president with dwindling influence over the Congress.

For Turkey: The committee vote indicates that Ankara’s efforts to stop the resolution are increasingly ineffective and that even the Americans who oppose it do so in fear of its potential to harm US interests. The Turkish public is now putting greater pressure on the government to take measures to retaliate against the US in response to the committee vote. Turks will now be less inclined to discuss and learn more about what really happened to the Ottoman Armenians in 1915. The anti-US sentiment in Turkey, the US’s closest ally in the Muslim world -- already strong due partly to the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims in Iraq, and partly to the failure of the US to hinder the PKK from staging raids into Turkey from northern Iraq -- will continue to rise.

For Turkey-Armenia relations: Yerevan’s policy of trying to force Turkey to establish diplomatic relations and to open the borders with Armenia by supporting genocide resolutions in Western parliaments is clearly keeping Ankara from considering any such policy change.

Finally, a few words about how those who support Turkey’s further democratization and closer integration with the West should assess the House committee vote. There is no doubt that the House committee has opened the way for further deterioration of Turkish-American and Turkish-Armenian relations. The voices of those in Turkey who are against further democratization and closer integration with the West, those who demand military intervention in Iraq not only against the PKK but also against the Kurdish regional government, are now louder.

Against all odds, those who are for peace and democracy in Turkey have to continue to call on the Ankara to follow a course dictated by reason and not sentiment. Ankara should carefully weigh the costs and benefits of a cross-border operation into Iraq, of measures against the US and absolutely avoid steps that can hurt Turkey’s long-term national interests. Why not leave aside the debate as to whether it was genocide or not and try to seek better relations with Yerevan by establishing diplomatic relations and opening the borders with Armenia? This may not only open the way for a general Turkish-Armenian reconciliation, but also place Ankara in a better position to help overcome the problems between Azerbaijan and Armenia.


50.       teaschip
3870 posts
 15 Oct 2007 Mon 08:15 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting MrX67:

we r the citizens of a great country which has a password ''PEACE İN COUNTRY ,PEACE ON WORLD',so who are blaming us with genocide they have to look at theirs today,such a shame to blamed from some countries with a humanity crime while their backrounds full with many tears and bloods????Yes Genocide is a humanity crime and noone never can deny of that,but whats the profit of to creat new discussions and to creat new strong nationalist behaviours?so everyone have to be a bit calm and have to think abit more while talking about history,we all have to work for only peace,no need to be history scientist ,to be a bit loving will fix all problems......



To compare the Armenian Genocide of 1915, to the INVASION of another country (Iraq) is plain idiotic…

How is it different? Because, for one, Americans can speak up about the deaths in Iraq. We can freely congregate, protest, call our reps, demand something (even if we don’t get it and the senseless war contines). It’s different because in Turkey, unless you deny the genocide, you’re suspect of anti-Turkish sentiment. Freedom, freedom of thought, of debate, of rage, of resolution. That’s the difference.

Come one for God’s sake.. we’re talking about a genocide here! Put politics aside and take the humanistic step. When is it gonna be a good time to recognize the genocide one wonders? This has been going on for years. It’s never a good time?

There should never be an excuse for denying a painful genocide. If the Germans were denying the Holocaust, it would literally be the same as helping them cover it up and disrespecting millions of people just for our own agenda. Its plain immoral and wrong.

Turkey has already alienated Canada & France and every other country that has called this tragedy a genocide. America will soon be the next, I'm afraid to say...



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