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(249 Messages in 25 pages - View all)
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120.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 06:44 pm

It is clear that this issue is highly politicized and any country's decision to accept it as "genocide" is purely based on political interests. It is quite a shame that so many Western countries have accepted it as a genocide despite the lack of adequate, objective (done by a third party) historical investigation. But the most remarkable phenomenon is that politicians get involved in this to begin with, and decide on what is the "legal" version of events.

At the same time, I don't trust what Turkish people say about this issue, mostly because they are usually not objective when it comes to admitting their mistakes.

121.       KeithL
1455 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 06:56 pm

The biggest reason that I have for expecting the world community to drop this once and for all is that these events happened technically under another era. This was the end of the ottoman empire. The republic was not formed until 1923. Turkey should be of course responsible for any actions it made after 1923. Turkey as we know is held to a different standard. The Cyprus issue has been unresolved for over 30 years. The Turks have shown every indication of wanting cyprus united and its the rest of Europe that still wants to punish the turks in northern cyprus for "protecting themselves". These are both examples of the extreme anti-turkish bias in Europe...

122.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:03 pm

Quoting KeithL:

The biggest reason that I have for expecting the world community to drop this once and for all is that these events happened technically under another era. This was the end of the ottoman empire. The republic was not formed until 1923. Turkey should be of course responsible for any actions it made after 1923. Turkey as we know is held to a different standard. The Cyprus issue has been unresolved for over 30 years. The Turks have shown every indication of wanting cyprus united and its the rest of Europe that still wants to punish the turks in northern cyprus for "protecting themselves". These are both examples of the extreme anti-turkish bias in Europe...


I think you're exaggerating with the "extreme anti-turkish bias" in Europe. You mentioned two political conflicts as an explanation for that bias, which I don't think makes sense.

The Cyprus issue is more like Greek political antipathy towards Turkey. Europe wouldn't care about it if Greeks didn't push their agenda. I think that's quite unfair towards the Turks living in Cyprus to be punished for Ottomans' invasion of Greece, however, if Turkish people wanted to mend their relationship with Greece, I'm sure this situation would also improve. Clearly, they prefer to push their end as well.

I also find it ironic that Turkey (although righteously) is upset about the treatment of Turkish minority in Cyprus or elsewhere, but they themselves abuse minorities living in Turkey. Also, the era before the foundation of the Turkish republic is not irrelevant to today's Turkey, they have to deal with it, it is their history.

123.       KeithL
1455 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:12 pm

Oh Catwoman, please read the newspapers a little closer. (There were no Ottomans in 1974!) Northern Cyprus is closed to the world. The Greeks attacked the Turks and it was the turkish army responding to protect their citizens. Should they have left them to die? And look at the last elections. The turks voted over 90% to unify as one country with the greeks. Finally, countries are starting to recognise how outrageous this situation is and are opening their doors to northern Cyprus. The Greeks have behaved very selfishly over this and I hope this all comes to bite them in the ass! As for the rest of Europe, they have turned their back on a key member of NATO to satisfy the greeks unjust position. Yes, this is my example of extreme anti-turkish bias in Europe...

124.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:19 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Oh Catwoman, please read the newspapers a little closer. (There were no Ottomans in 1974!) Northern Cyprus is closed to the world. The Greeks attacked the Turks and it was the turkish army responding to protect their citizens. Should they have left them to die? And look at the last elections. The turks voted over 90% to unify as one country with the greeks. Finally, countries are starting to recognise how outrageous this situation is and are opening their doors to northern Cyprus. The Greeks have behaved very selfishly over this and I hope this all comes to bite them in the ass! As for the rest of Europe, they have turned their back on a key member of NATO to satisfy the greeks unjust position. Yes, this is my example of extreme anti-turkish bias in Europe...


I am not talking about the Turks in Cyprus, because they clearly don't have enough power to change the situation, but I was talking about the Turks in Turkey, who are just as anti-Greek as Greeks are anti-Turkish. So they both fuel the conflict. I said that if Turkey as a country made effort to improve their relationship with Greece, I'm sure the Cyprus issue could be resolved.
I also said that Europe wouldn't care about Cyprus if Greece didn't push their agenda. Yes, Greece influences the EU's decisions, but if it wasn't for Greece, I'm sure other countries would try to integrate Cyprus.

125.       KeithL
1455 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:24 pm

I disagree with you soooooo much. I travel and work with Greeks often. The Greeks hate the Turks with a passion. Turks care very little about Greeks except as how it relates to Cyprus. The greeks are still grieving the loss of Constantinople as if it lost its only lover and agonize that they were unable to get it back after WWI.

126.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:33 pm

Quoting KeithL:

I disagree with you soooooo much. I travel and work with Greeks often. The Greeks hate the Turks with a passion. Turks care very little about Greeks except as how it relates to Cyprus. The greeks are still grieving the loss of Constantinople as if it lost its only lover and agonize that they were unable to get it back after WWI.


I can definitely see that, but I don't think that Turkey has done much to mend this situation. I think that you have to look at it in the right context - it is Greece that has been invaded by the Ottomans and lost land in the conflict, so it's predictable that the anti-Turkish feelings will be stronger in Greece. Turkey hasn't been invaded, what do they have to feel bad about? At the same time, there ARE anti-Greek attitudes in Turkey and they are not trying to end this detrimental to them relationship with Greece, but fuel it.
By the way, I'm not defending Greece, but let's try to look at it from both perspectives and see that Turkey can actually have the power change things.

127.       KeithL
1455 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:44 pm

OK, not to argue now, but want to give you some accurate history. It was Greece that invaded Turkey after WWI and made it all the way from Smyrna to Samsun. Greece lost land in SW Turkey as the turkish army fought them all the way back and off the main land.
The military events of 1974 were a result of a greek led military coup and the subsequent attacks on Turks on the island. Where we sit today is a result of Greek aggresion, and Turkey defending its citizens.

128.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:55 pm

Quoting KeithL:

OK, not to argue now, but want to give you some accurate history. It was Greece that invaded Turkey after WWI and made it all the way from Smyrna to Samsun. Greece lost land in SW Turkey as the turkish army fought them all the way back and off the main land.
The military events of 1974 were a result of a greek led military coup and the subsequent attacks on Turks on the island. Where we sit today is a result of Greek aggresion, and Turkey defending its citizens.


Keith, as I said, I don't think there's a single guilty side here, but you are quoting very selective facts. Greece was invaded by Ottomans and totally overtaken for couple hundred years! When they finally regained their independence, they didn't return to their former borders and initiated battles to get back the land to include the ethnic Greek population.

129.       vineyards
1954 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 08:12 pm

Anatolia did not belong to Greeks either. They also captured it from Trojans. If everyone were to claim back where they once lived where would the Poles end up for example? Meanwhile, as a person who constantly criticize Turks for all sorts of things, I have never ever for God's sake heard you criticize your own country and culture for once.

130.       KeithL
1455 posts
 16 Oct 2007 Tue 08:20 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting KeithL:

OK, not to argue now, but want to give you some accurate history. It was Greece that invaded Turkey after WWI and made it all the way from Smyrna to Samsun. Greece lost land in SW Turkey as the turkish army fought them all the way back and off the main land.
The military events of 1974 were a result of a greek led military coup and the subsequent attacks on Turks on the island. Where we sit today is a result of Greek aggresion, and Turkey defending its citizens.


Keith, as I said, I don't think there's a single guilty side here, but you are quoting very selective facts. Greece was invaded by Ottomans and totally overtaken for couple hundred years! When they finally regained their independence, they didn't return to their former borders and initiated battles to get back the land to include the ethnic Greek population.



Catwoman, these two events are hardly selective. They are the two pillars of turkish-greco realtions in the last 100 years. If I am being selective, please identify any issue I may be forgetting about in the last century.

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