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Armenians-Turks
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| 90. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:24 am |
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Quoting KeithL: Also interestingrnough, this position would actually implicate the armenians. By your explanation, "they brought this on themselves" by allying with Russia and attacking the Ottomans... |
I think there is a difference.
Muslim and Armenians were killing each other, Ottomans decided to relocate the Armenians to save their lives (A good intention).
American took their decision of dropping atomic bombs targeting to kill as many civilians as possible (A bad intention).
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| 91. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 07:40 am |
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Quoting fearless: Quoting yilgun-7: And please read JUSTIN MCCARTY books and articles on the Russian Armenians and the Russian Army against the Ottoman Empire and Turkish People and the real massacre in 1915 and "The Other Side of the Falsified Genocide"...
JUSTIN MCCARTY is an author and historian and university professor in the USA.
And read Dr.CAROLINE FINKEL, an American -the USA- historian on Ottoman Empire...
read these real historians and scientists if you want to learn real history and real historic documents...
"THE ENEMY OF THE TURKS ARE THE ENEMY OF THE MANKIND"... |
Yılgün
If all I am going to learn by reading those books you mentioned is ""THE ENEMY OF THE TURKS ARE THE ENEMY OF THE MANKIND" then, no, thanks.
You should realize that you are making a total loser of yourself with such silly quotes. I'm really curious about your objective in saying that. Do you expect those who you consider "enemy of Turks" to read such a quote and say "Oh! I've been on the wrong path! I am not an enemy of the mankind, and so from now on I will love the Turks too!" and repent or what?
As to the truth about this matter, the Armenians killed Turks and helped Allied Countries with the courage they got mainly from the Russians in order to establish an Armenian State inside Anatolia, reaching the Mediterranean Sea , and the Turkish people killed them back. Then they were forced out of the country by military force in order to stop the internal bleeding in the body of the Turkish State which was struggling for its survival. Unfortunately during the journey those who could not stand the extreme difficulties died. It was not a genocide and considering the conditions the Turkish state was in, it was the best and rightest thing to do at the time, as confessed by the first prime minister of Armenia Hovannes Kacaznunni in his report presented in the Dashnak Party Congress held in Bucharest in 1923:
"We mutinied against the Turks. We took sides with the Allies, the enemies of the Turks. What we demanded from the Turks was "an Armenia from one sea to another". We killed and we were killed. The forced migration was righteous and necessary. We could not see the facts and we were the starters of the incidents. The national struggle of the Turks was righteous. They made the Turkey Armenians subject to a forced migration in summer and autumn of 1915. The Turks knew well what they were doing and there is not a matter they should be regretful about. This was the most proper and certain thing to do.
Complaining about destiny and searching for the reasons of disasters outside ourselves is a pathetic situation. This has been a characteristic feature of our national politics which the Dashnaksoution Party was also not able to avoid."
What more is there to say after that?
The book containing this report is first published in Russia in Tiflis (Tbilisi). A censored version was also published in USA under the name of "The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaksoution) Has Nothing To Do Anymore" in New York in 1955.
This historical report is -of course- banned in Armenia. The Dashnaks in Europe also confiscated the books. Translations in various languages in European libraries have been confiscated. The books name is available in the catalogs but the books themselves are not to be found on the shelves.
The Russian issue is still available in the Lenin library in Moscow.
Regards,
____________________________________________________________
I'll climb that hill in my own way,
Just wait a while for the right day... |
A good summary.
I think we all talk about what happened.
I think we also talk why they all happened
In that context we should also mention the brainwashing of Armenians by Americans in missionary schools all over the East of Turkey during 1800s. I don't remember the exact number of schools but they should be something more than 150. More than 150 schools, in 1800s, can you believe it? What do you think they were doing (teaching) in those schools? It all became clear later as we all know today.
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| 92. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 10:33 am |
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Quoting teaschip1: Quoting teaschip1: Quoting MrX67: we r the citizens of a great country which has a password ''PEACE İN COUNTRY ,PEACE ON WORLD',so who are blaming us with genocide they have to look at theirs today,such a shame to blamed from some countries with a humanity crime while their backrounds full with many tears and bloods????Yes Genocide is a humanity crime and noone never can deny of that,but whats the profit of to creat new discussions and to creat new strong nationalist behaviours?so everyone have to be a bit calm and have to think abit more while talking about history,we all have to work for only peace,no need to be history scientist ,to be a bit loving will fix all problems...... |
To compare the Armenian Genocide of 1915, to the INVASION of another country (Iraq) is plain idiotic…
How is it different? Because, for one, Americans can speak up about the deaths in Iraq. We can freely congregate, protest, call our reps, demand something (even if we don’t get it and the senseless war contines). It’s different because in Turkey, unless you deny the genocide, you’re suspect of anti-Turkish sentiment. Freedom, freedom of thought, of debate, of rage, of resolution. That’s the difference.
Come one for God’s sake.. we’re talking about a genocide here! Put politics aside and take the humanistic step. When is it gonna be a good time to recognize the genocide one wonders? This has been going on for years. It’s never a good time?
There should never be an excuse for denying a painful genocide. If the Germans were denying the Holocaust, it would literally be the same as helping them cover it up and disrespecting millions of people just for our own agenda. Its plain immoral and wrong.
Turkey has already alienated Canada & France and every other country that has called this tragedy a genocide. America will soon be the next, I'm afraid to say...
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| 93. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 11:08 am |
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Quoting si++:
Muslim and Armenians were killing each other, Ottomans decided to relocate the Armenians to save their lives (A good intention).
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muslims and armenians? an interesting definition!
ottomans then were not muslims?
armenians contra all muslims? how should i understand it?
can you tell any reason armenians allied with russia?
a good intention to kill off during the journey to paradise! a very good intention indeed! 
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| 94. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 11:14 am |
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Quoting si++:
In that context we should also mention the brainwashing of Armenians by Americans in missionary schools all over the East of Turkey during 1800s. I don't remember the exact number of schools but they should be something more than 150. More than 150 schools, in 1800s, can you believe it? What do you think they were doing (teaching) in those schools? It all became clear later as we all know today. |
any source to back up this?
but plz NOT THE UNKNOWN CENSORED BOOK THAT HAS DISAPPEARED MYSTERIOUSLY and CAN BE FOUND ON THE SHELVES COVERED WITH DUST IN LENIN library.
btw, theresnt lenin library anymore. its called russian state library
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| 95. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 12:55 pm |
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I think we should make something clear here:
-We know that terrible things happened during that time.
-We know that many Turks and many many Armenians died.
-We know that Turkish Governments made mistakes by not opening its archives fully and not being open enough in the past.
But what we dont know that
Weather it should be called a genocide or not.
And it is the job for historians. Not for us. I think the subject should be discussed at the possible highest level and should be sorted out once and all.
Otherwise, the subject wont go away for us Turks. And Everybody will be talking about it with their limited historical knowledge. (one will say oh we have the document , your talat pasa -interior minister I think at the time- sent this order 'X', saying 'terminate them all'. Someone will say, but in this document, it says 'relocate them for their protection' . So it will go on and on. That is the reason, I think it is the best, if it is left for historians)
It happened nearly a century ago..Not everything is well documented as it is now(ie we know very well what is happening in Iraq for example, we all know how American daisy cutter bombs work, we know very well why Americans dropped those bombs in japan-though it was not necessary-, we know very well how many civilians got killed in Vietnam -mainly by the napalms- etc etc) .
There was not even a definition for genocide at the time when those things happened in 1915, if I am not wrong.
My conclusion on the subject is that we Turks should not be afraid of opening our archives fully and discussing it where ever possible. Compensation and giving the land is out of question because Turkish Republic was born in 1923.
And for my American friends, supporting what your government is doing now and what you have done in the past to the other nations is a no go from my part.
I dont think you should support your governments 'war crimes' and at the same time saying 'but 1915 was a genocide'.
I cant see the morality in it.
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| 96. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 01:42 pm |
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thats better to take peace pens to write a new history then to stuck on past.To look for who was true and who was right in the past makes bigger to problems and creats new nationalist waves....
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| 97. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 01:45 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
-We know that many Turks and many many Armenians died.
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can you come out with any statistics of "many turks died"?
how come so many people die during one march? why did it take so many lives and so many months? in fact it wasnt a long distance.
i know you will stand in defence of turkey not the justice in any case.
the truth is: turks were afraid of the growing number of armenians and decided to decrease it. turks have been decreasing the number of other ethnicities constantly throughout centuries. the proof is the visible shrinking groups of other ELEMENTS (vineyards call them so). changing names and surnames into muslim in fear of persecution and jizia etc etc.
well, you can still justify all these attrocities changing the subject into america and europe. when we talk of this you cant straightly say : yes, lets talk it, but you say look at how america is evil, europe is evil.
all you say is : we should open the archives!
but it is always abonded on this level, no other step taken, just words.
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| 98. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 01:48 pm |
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Quoting MrX67: thats better to take peace pens to write a new history then to stuck on past.To look for who was true and who was right in the past makes bigger to problems and creats new nationalist waves.... |
Sure that's the right mission for those who are really in need for peace.
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| 99. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 01:58 pm |
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Quoting Serdar07: Quoting MrX67: thats better to take peace pens to write a new history then to stuck on past.To look for who was true and who was right in the past makes bigger to problems and creats new nationalist waves.... |
Sure that's the right mission for those who are really in need for peace. |
i knew you two were twins
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| 100. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 02:06 pm |
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Quoting femme_fatal: Quoting Serdar07: Quoting MrX67: thats better to take peace pens to write a new history then to stuck on past.To look for who was true and who was right in the past makes bigger to problems and creats new nationalist waves.... |
Sure that's the right mission for those who are really in need for peace. |
i knew you two were twins |
Very nice feeling I am happy with your words
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