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Q, W, X (or nationalists and chauvinists are so mentally blocked)
(137 Messages in 14 pages - View all)
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50.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 01 Oct 2009 Thu 12:14 am

It´s a complex issue. A nation´s language (and consequently its notation) are part of heritage and culture. Turkish notation as we know it today is a relatively new thing. I think it would be wrong to force a language to include sounds that are not typical for this language, I might be a bit biased though because of my love of linguistics

 

Adding "Kurdish" letters to an already existing perfect system of notation would be an unnecessary action corrupting Turkish.

 

it is another issue, however, whether to recognise minority´s right to use their system of notation while registering birth etc. Since the discussed letters already exist on all keyboards used in Turkey, it might be a nice gesture on behalf of the Turkish government to allow Kurds celebrate their ethnicity officially. On the other hand, all minorities might demand similar decision for their systems of notation...

51.       si++
3785 posts
 01 Oct 2009 Thu 06:49 am

 

Quoting Daydreamer

It´s a complex issue. A nation´s language (and consequently its notation) are part of heritage and culture. Turkish notation as we know it today is a relatively new thing. I think it would be wrong to force a language to include sounds that are not typical for this language, I might be a bit biased though because of my love of linguistics

Relatively new but it works very well for our language. Turkish (the one we speak in Turkey) doesn´t really need those leters.

 

Adding "Kurdish" letters to an already existing perfect system of notation would be an unnecessary action corrupting Turkish.

Thank you.

 

it is another issue, however, whether to recognise minority´s right to use their system of notation while registering birth etc. Since the discussed letters already exist on all keyboards used in Turkey, it might be a nice gesture on behalf of the Turkish government to allow Kurds celebrate their ethnicity officially. On the other hand, all minorities might demand similar decision for their systems of notation...

If you watch TRT-þeþ (The Kurdish channel of official broadcasting corporation of Turkey), you can see those letter are being used freely. Again it´s about having the Kurdish names (like Þivan Perver -or Perwer as Kurds say-) officially as you cannot have them because of our alphabet law.

 

 

52.       upsy_daisy
200 posts
 03 Oct 2009 Sat 05:17 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

...

Apart from everything, those letter are being used in daily life anyway..

If we are able to do write George Washington as George Washington not as “Vasington”, why should not we show the same flexibility to our own people?

...

 

 

 

 

 I think it is another topic to disscuss.

 

http://www.washington.emb.mfa.gov.tr/

 

It is not the matter of flexibility.Daily life and official documents are different things.

53.       Iceheart_Omnis
106 posts
 04 Oct 2009 Sun 11:10 am

I think that allowing Kurdish citizens of Turkey to use the Kurdish alphabet when registering their names is a separate topic from adding the Q, W and X letters to the Turkish alphabet, I think allowing Kurdish-origin citizens to use the Kurdish alphabet is reasonable, however, I don´t think those letters should be incorporated to the Turkish Alphabet, they are not necessary.

 

In Spain, since Catalan is an official language in Catalonia together with Spanish, Catalan names can be used and sometimes they use the grave accent (`) which is never used in Spanish, or the l·l combination, which doesn´t exist in Spanish either, those are allowed in ID cards, but nobody except the stupid Catalan nationalists would even think of adding those diacritics to the Spanish alphabet.

 

So I´m open to the idea of letting Kurds, who are Turkish citizens too, use the Kurdish alphabet in their names, after all they can use Q, W and X in TRT-6, but including those unneeded characters in the Turkish alphabet just to please the Kurds would be a very bad idea in my opinion.



Edited (10/4/2009) by Iceheart_Omnis

54.       alameda
3499 posts
 04 Oct 2009 Sun 08:13 pm

 

Quoting Iceheart_Omnis

I think that allowing Kurdish citizens of Turkey to use the Kurdish alphabet when registering their names is a separate topic from adding the Q, W and X letters to the Turkish alphabet, I think allowing Kurdish-origin citizens to use the Kurdish alphabet is reasonable, however, I don´t think those letters should be incorporated to the Turkish Alphabet, they are not necessary.

 

FWIW....it seems to me it would only confuse things. 

 

As an example; Spanish is the largest non Anglo group in the US, and they have the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo to fall back on regarding linguistic issues, however there are none of the extra Spanish letters in official USA documents.  This results in people pronouncing names in a unintended manner. 

 

If a Turkish citizen comes to the US there is no allowance for any of the special Turkish letters on official documents...........nor are there Japanese letters...and on and on...no Arabic....no Mandarin....In areas with large concentrations of a particular ethnic group, you may see signs written in multiple languages....but still, official documents remain in English.

 

Turkey has a national language, as do most countries.  The effect of a national language, and of course alphabet, is to simplify things so as to allow everyone to communicate with each other.



Edited (10/5/2009) by alameda [spell]

55.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Oct 2009 Mon 12:21 pm

 

Quoting alameda

 

Quoting Iceheart_Omnis

I think that allowing Kurdish citizens of Turkey to use the Kurdish alphabet when registering their names is a separate topic from adding the Q, W and X letters to the Turkish alphabet, I think allowing Kurdish-origin citizens to use the Kurdish alphabet is reasonable, however, I don´t think those letters should be incorporated to the Turkish Alphabet, they are not necessary.

 

 

If a Turkish citizen comes to the US there is no allowance for any of the special Turkish letters on official documents...........nor are there Japanese letters...and on and on...no Arabic....no Mandarin....In areas with large concentrations of a particular ethnic group, you may see signs written in multiple languages....but still, official documents remain in English.

 

I think you are simply confusing Turkish citizens coming to USA and Some Turkish citizen LIVING IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY... 

Any of Turkish citizens should be able to register their names without anybody telling them off or without being put into jails..

This problem is as simple as that..

 

 

56.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Oct 2009 Mon 12:39 pm

 

Quoting Iceheart_Omnis

 

So I´m open to the idea of letting Kurds, who are Turkish citizens too, use the Kurdish alphabet in their names, after all they can use Q, W and X in TRT-6, but including those unneeded characters in the Turkish alphabet just to please the Kurds would be a very bad idea in my opinion.

 

Why should idea of  ´pleasing Kurds is not a good idea´? 

We are talking about the ´basic human rights here´..right? 

Which Kurd do you think will think of separation? A Kurd who who thinks his language is not free to use/he is turned down at registry offices /living with the idea that he might be prosecuted because of those 3 letters in their names  or a Kurd who thinks that his language and his culture being respected after years of forced assimilation? 

 

57.       Iceheart_Omnis
106 posts
 05 Oct 2009 Mon 01:27 pm

Adding those 3 silly letters to the Turkish alphabet, which doesn´t need them would just make the Kurdish nationalists feel emboldened because of their ´victory´ allowing Kurds to use the Kurdish alphabet, a separate alphabet for a separate language, which already uses those letters is more reasonable, but if they see they can impose their reivindications on the rest of the country, and can even force everyone in Turkey to use an alphabet modified to cater to the Kurds,they will become like the Catalan or Basque nationalists in Spain, who expect (and often get away with that) the rest of the country to indulge their every whim.

 

But since you live in Commie La-la Land where everyone is good and people like the DTP are just well-meaning representatives of  ´oppressed´  peoples who would never feel emboldened by a perceived victory, I don´t think you see their aims are far from good, and that rather than just equal rights, they want to have their own Kurdish autonomic region where they can discriminate against other Turkish citizens who happen to be of  non-Kurdish origin, just as Catalan and Basque ´autonomous´ governments do in Spain.

 

Seriously, sometimes it seems you don´t live in the real world.



Edited (10/5/2009) by Iceheart_Omnis

58.       _AE_
677 posts
 05 Oct 2009 Mon 01:31 pm

 

Quoting Iceheart_Omnis

Adding those 3 silly letters to the Turkish alphabet, which doesn´t need them would just make the Kurdish nationalists feel emboldened because of their ´victory´ allowing Kurds to use the Kurdish alphabet, a separate alphabet for a separate language, which already uses those letters is more reasonable, but if they see they can impose their reivindications on the rest of the country, and can even force everyone in Turkey to use an alphabet modified to cater to the Kurds,they will become like the Catalan or Basque nationalists in Spain, who expect (and often get away with that) the rest of the country to indulge their every whim.

 

But since you live in Commie La-la Land where everyone is good and people like the DTP are just well-meaning representative of  ´oppressed´  peoples who would never feel emboldened by a perceived victory, I don´t think you see their aims are far from good, and that rather than just equal rights, they want to have their own Kurdish autonomic region where they can discriminate against other Turkish citizens who happen to be of  non-Kurdish origin, just as Catalan and Basque ´autonomous´ governments do in Spain.

 

You dont feel that Catalan and Basque regions have a point? 

59.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Oct 2009 Mon 01:45 pm

 

Quoting Iceheart_Omnis

Adding those 3 silly letters to the Turkish alphabet, which doesn´t need them would just make the Kurdish nationalists feel emboldened because of their ´victory´ allowing Kurds to use the Kurdish alphabet, a separate alphabet for a separate language, which already uses those letters is more reasonable, but if they see they can impose their reivindications on the rest of the country, and can even force everyone in Turkey to use an alphabet modified to cater to the Kurds,they will become like the Catalan or Basque nationalists in Spain, who expect (and often get away with that) the rest of the country to indulge their every whim.

 

But since you live in Commie La-la Land where everyone is good and people like the DTP are just well-meaning representative of  ´oppressed´  peoples who would never feel emboldened by a perceived victory, I don´t think you see their aims are far from good, and that rather than just equal rights, they want to have their own Kurdish autonomic region where they can discriminate against other Turkish citizens who happen to be of  non-Kurdish origin, just as Catalan and Basque ´autonomous´ governments do in Spain.

 

Alphabet is a system of symbols..

It is not that important..Less than 100 years ago we took a different alphabet ..We replaced it completely I mean.. Adding a few letters is not worth to argue.

We, TURK will NOT lose anything at all..We will gain!!

Since you see Kurdish people´s (and their parties) aims very well and align yourself with the fascist of my country there are no words for me to say really..lol..

Good luck with your political preferences!!  

You have diagnosed Turkeys problems in a very short time I must say!! lol lol 

 

60.       Iceheart_Omnis
106 posts
 05 Oct 2009 Mon 01:47 pm

No they don´t, they have the same rights as everyone in Spain, but they just want more, so they demanded, and got, public schools paid by everyone´s taxes, where they teach 90% of the time in Catalan or Basque, they have got hospitals where all informative materials may be written only in Catalan or Basque.

 

That last thing I saw it personally in Barcelona, all brochures about preventing some diseases were written only in Catalan, while I am not Spanish, I can empathize with a Spanish citizen who would feel insulted by something like that,  even if a native Spanish speaker can read Catalan competently (knowledge of French helps), a Spanish citizen should not be expected to take time trying to decipher something written in his own country because the government there is a bunch of dorks who feel so ´different´ that they enjoy rubbing it on everybody else´s face.

 

But I guess something like that situation would make DTP mayors really happy.

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