They say practice makes perfect... but I havent seen my english getting any better though I posted over 5000 posts here

 Me too. I have read that Sui is been called a racist as well during this debate if I remember well, I find that rather unfair and quite ill-informed. 

 +1

It became the famous ´I am right - Nooo, IIII am right´ debate.. speculating a little over words, whether we can or cannot speak of ´kurds´ ´turks´ ´them´ ´us´ in a debate. There is a lot in words yes, but sometimes you can say too much as well..

It has become boring and too full of personal comments. Please continue to discuss whatever you think would be the sollution,ethnicity, racism and nationality, but continuing personal comments and posts specifically about PKK (let alone supporting it), will result in this thread to be locked.

Now please continue this interesting debate

 Loved that one

 This is what I meant in another post.. an ethnic identity is not necessarily based upon origin or kinship. It is often created in what fits people most or what they prefer to belong to.

I should read some more work from Martin van Bruinessen, he is a Dutch ´Kurdolog´, and is really a specialist on the topic of Kurdish peoples. I attended a few seminars of him about Kurds in Turkey. It was really english. I think his books must be available in English, if not in Turkish as well.

 Sorry, I forgot to type ´all´ (remind you all). It was not directed towards YOU personally, nor was that my intention. I was gonna reply to a few other posts and then go to bed, so I thought Id mention this to all posters here before I leave. I have modified my post, it was not directed towarsd you personally

Meltem:

I have not read that article yet, but then the same question goes to you what if you said "ne mutlu Türküm diyene" and became competely equal to any other citizen? What will you lose, what do you have against this? Why do you always insist to pronounce your ethnical origins, in our daily life we have nothing to do with etnics.

DK:

What will you loose? You will then deny every individual from his right to shape his own identity, to feel comfortable with that. It may be practically easy to say ´just say it and then we are equal´, but that makes the one who makes the other one say it, ´more equal´ because he is the one who takes away the right of an own identity. Ýdentities, and how people perceive them, are generally not things you are born with. They are given by the goverment, for administrational purposes, by environment (culture that you grow up in), .. there are many things that create an identity. But it is every persons right to have an identity that fits him/her and that fits his own ideological goals.

Ethnics is something dangerous, and I believe like you that in our daily life we have little business with our ethnicity. But to deny someone the right to have an identity based upon ethnicity, and then say ´what will you loose, what have you got against it´, is too simple and also ideologically wrong.

When answering this forum, please dont use the quote button inside Meltems copies. It makes your post go to the original forum where it is copied from it just happened to me!

So here is my reply to Sui´s last post:

I agree with that as well. But when using a sentence like that, we do not always quote back at history. We connect it to current ideas that go with it.  And I think that these days, it is more used to say how great the Turkish ethnicity is, rather than to say ´Hey guys, remember that Atatürk meant that we should all be one nation?´.

 As I said, it was not a closing-answer, just an example of 1 family with good background. I did not make the generalisation, then you have not read my last words if you thought thats what I did.

I agree with you in this last paragraph. But Ive been told that the army starts to loose its divine image gradually lately.. ? That would be good progress.

I would like to remind you all, though, that discussing PKK itself is still prohibited for the time being. Just a reminder, so far it has not been about that in itself nor has the discussion escalated.

 This is an oversimplification. It is true that surgery in Turkey, especially plastic surgery, is much cheaper than in the west of Europe. But it is not true that there arent many people who go for medical treatment to Turkey because of its quality. I am convinced that service and knowledge in good hospitals in Turkey (private foundations, or state unviersities in the big cities) are of a higher quality than the ones in the Netherlands.

I have read quite some articles about eye laser treatment in Turkey being further developed than in the rest of Europe, and treatment of ´smaller´ cases which include pains of muscles and recovery of bones is said to be better as well. This is no surprise: a doctor in Istanbul will have much more practice and experience than a doctor in Amsterdam is ever going to have. Experience ofcourse doesnt necessarily mean quality, but definitely medical treatment in Turkey is not of any less quality than in Europe (I wouldnt know about small hospitals though. but then again, last week two hospitals here were closed because their ORs werent hygenic)