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Geniş zaman - help wıth rules and exceptıons
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1.       carlbos
67 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:13 am

Hello,

can anyone help me with this?

I am studying aorist tense and I got it I think but I have a problem with affetmek.

All of the rules I can find say that two syllable stems take the ır / ir / ür / ur ending but I believe this verb takes the er ending.

It becomes affeder instead of affedir.

I cannot find it listed as an exception anywhere. Can someone please confirm that the er version is correct. I have seen it written many times in this way. Also, is it a recognised exception to the rule or is it just an oddity!

I know it's a small thing but it's been bugging me!

Many thanks,

Carl

2.       metehan2001
501 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:22 am

Quoting carlbos:

Hello,

can anyone help me with this?

I am studying aorist tense and I got it I think but I have a problem with affetmek.

All of the rules I can find say that two syllable stems take the ır / ir / ür / ur ending but I believe this verb takes the er ending.

It becomes affeder instead of affedir.

I cannot find it listed as an exception anywhere. Can someone please confirm that the er version is correct. I have seen it written many times in this way. Also, is it a recognised exception to the rule or is it just an oddity!

I know it's a small thing but it's been bugging me!

Many thanks,

Carl


Dear Carl,
Present Tense endings are not limited with (-ır,-ir,-ur,-ür). We have also (-ar,-er). So, 'affed-er' is correct. More examples:
bak-ar
gül-er
yüz-er
kız-ar, and so on...

3.       metehan2001
501 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:31 am

Quoting carlbos:

Hello,

can anyone help me with this?

I am studying aorist tense and I got it I think but I have a problem with affetmek.

All of the rules I can find say that two syllable stems take the ır / ir / ür / ur ending but I believe this verb takes the er ending.

It becomes affeder instead of affedir.

I cannot find it listed as an exception anywhere. Can someone please confirm that the er version is correct. I have seen it written many times in this way. Also, is it a recognised exception to the rule or is it just an oddity!

I know it's a small thing but it's been bugging me!

Many thanks,

Carl


The information about two syllables words are not wrong. In fact, the word 'affet-' is made of two words: the noun 'af' and the verb 'et-'. So, you should think that
'-er' ending comes to the end of 'et-', and it is again one syllable word.

4.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:38 am

hmmm...this is what it says in my turkish grammar book on geniş zaman...

1) Add -r- when the verb stem ends in a vowel

ex. Dinle-r
Sizi bekle-r-iz

2) Add -er- (or -ar-) when the verb stem consists of only one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Bak-ar-sın

3) Add -ir- (or -ır-, -ur-, -ür-) when the verb stem consists of more than one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Teyzam Avrupa'dan hediye getir-ir

going from these notes, the geniş zaman of affetmek would be affedir because it has more than one syllable.

doğru mu?

or is my turkish grammar book wrong?

5.       carlbos
67 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:39 am

Thanks, the two word bit makes sense now...... that's the explanation I needed....

cheers!

6.       k_s
1526 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:43 am

Quoting gezbelle:

hmmm...this is what it says in my turkish grammar book on geniş zaman...

1) Add -r- when the verb stem ends in a vowel

ex. Dinle-r
Sizi bekle-r-iz

2) Add -er- (or -ar-) when the verb stem consists of only one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Bak-ar-sın

3) Add -ir- (or -ır-, -ur-, -ür-) when the verb stem consists of more than one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Teyzam Avrupa'dan hediye getir-ir

going from these notes, the geniş zaman of affetmek would be affedir because it has more than one syllable.

doğru mu?

or is my turkish grammar book wrong?


2) Add -er- (or -ar-) when the verb stem consists of only one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Bak-ar-sın

But gel-ir-sin is also true, so your book is wrong i think. maybe you understand your book wrong.

geniş zaman of "affetmek" is affed-er although it has more than one syllable.

7.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:48 am

Quoting k_s:

Quoting gezbelle:

hmmm...this is what it says in my turkish grammar book on geniş zaman...

1) Add -r- when the verb stem ends in a vowel

ex. Dinle-r
Sizi bekle-r-iz

2) Add -er- (or -ar-) when the verb stem consists of only one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Bak-ar-sın

3) Add -ir- (or -ır-, -ur-, -ür-) when the verb stem consists of more than one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Teyzam Avrupa'dan hediye getir-ir

going from these notes, the geniş zaman of affetmek would be affedir because it has more than one syllable.

doğru mu?

or is my turkish grammar book wrong?


2) Add -er- (or -ar-) when the verb stem consists of only one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Bak-ar-sın

But gel-ir-sin is also true, so your book is wrong i think. maybe you understand your book wrong.

geniş zaman of "affetmek" is affed-er although it has more than one syllable.



gel-ir-sin is an exception in my grammar book...there is a list of exceptions...

al-ır
bil-ır
bul-ur
gel-ir
kal-ır
ol-ur
öl-ür
dur-ur
var-ır
ver-ir
vur-ur
gör-ür
san-ır

hopefully, my grammar book isn't wrong...

Asmaa Hussein liked this message
8.       metehan2001
501 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:48 am

Quoting gezbelle:

hmmm...this is what it says in my turkish grammar book on geniş zaman...

1) Add -r- when the verb stem ends in a vowel

ex. Dinle-r
Sizi bekle-r-iz

2) Add -er- (or -ar-) when the verb stem consists of only one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Bak-ar-sın

3) Add -ir- (or -ır-, -ur-, -ür-) when the verb stem consists of more than one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Teyzam Avrupa'dan hediye getir-ir

going from these notes, the geniş zaman of affetmek would be affedir because it has more than one syllable.

doğru mu?

or is my turkish grammar book wrong?



Dear gezbelle,
As I explained in my first message. 'af-et-' is made of 2 words. So, (-er) ending comes to the end of (et-) which is one syllabled word.
The correct writing is (affeder).

9.       k_s
1526 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:56 am

Quoting gezbelle:

Quoting k_s:

Quoting gezbelle:

hmmm...this is what it says in my turkish grammar book on geniş zaman...

1) Add -r- when the verb stem ends in a vowel

ex. Dinle-r
Sizi bekle-r-iz

2) Add -er- (or -ar-) when the verb stem consists of only one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Bak-ar-sın

3) Add -ir- (or -ır-, -ur-, -ür-) when the verb stem consists of more than one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Teyzam Avrupa'dan hediye getir-ir

going from these notes, the geniş zaman of affetmek would be affedir because it has more than one syllable.

doğru mu?

or is my turkish grammar book wrong?


2) Add -er- (or -ar-) when the verb stem consists of only one syllable and ends in a consonant

ex. Bak-ar-sın

But gel-ir-sin is also true, so your book is wrong i think. maybe you understand your book wrong.

geniş zaman of "affetmek" is affed-er although it has more than one syllable.



gel-ir-sin is an exception in my grammar book...there is a list of exceptions...

al-ır
bil-ır
bul-ur
gel-ir
kal-ır
ol-ur
öl-ür
dur-ur
var-ır
ver-ir
vur-ur
gör-ür
san-ır

hopefully, my grammar book isn't wrong...


If you have more than a few, you can't say them exceptions i think. and we can add also more verbs

10.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 01:59 am



i'm just going to put affetmek in my list of exceptions that it is affeder.

teşekkürler to you both for trying to explain to me.

11.       Elisa
0 posts
 08 Jan 2007 Mon 11:53 pm

Quoting gezbelle:

i'm just going to put affetmek in my list of exceptions that it is affeder.



I learned a bit more about those kind of exceptions in class tonight. There are exceptions amongst verbs with more than one syllable. Seems that combinations with etmek should be conjugated like the verb etmek.
Hence, the same goes for seyretmek, kaybetmek..

But then again, the verb öğretmek for example is not an exception.. :-S

12.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 09 Jan 2007 Tue 12:40 am

yeh, it has been kindly explained to me now

some verbs have combinations with etmek and olmak. In these cases, they are treated as 2 words and only the etmek and olmak parts are conjugated.

13.       CANLI
5084 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 02:53 am

Maybe öğretmek not a combined verb ?
Not related to etmek,or is it ?:-S

14.       CANLI
5084 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 03:24 am

Ok,i have a question here,
İn Olumsuz,the suffix generally is 'ma,me'

Why it become 'mAz' with Geniş zaman,and why it is still 'mA' with ben and biz ?

15.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 03:34 am

i think it is for negation of geniş zaman...?

it is "-maz" with 2nd and 3rd person singluar and plural.

it is just "-ma" for 1st person singular and plural.

however, for 1st person singular and plural, if you use it in question, it becomes "-maz mıyım/mıyız".

is this what you mean canli?

16.       CANLI
5084 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 03:48 am

Yes gezbelle,
But i don't understand why it became 'maz' with the others not 'mA' as usual,then
İ didn't know it turn to 'maz' in question form,i thought my book missed it,and its still 'mA' with bin and biz.
Why in ALLAH name the 'mA' with 'bin and biz' changed again to 'mAz' then ? :-S

17.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 04:11 am

ok...from what i can understand...

the geniş zaman has a different negation marker, -mez, for 2nd and 3rd persons singular and plural.

gel-mez- --> gelmez mi? doesn't he come?
gel-mez-sin --> gelmez misin? don't you come?
gel-mez-siniz --> gelmez misiniz? don't you come?
gel-mez-ler --> gelmezler mi? don't they come?

in negative questions, for the 1st person singular and plural forms, the negation marker -mez is used.

however, in regular negations (not question format), the marker is not -mez, but it is -me.

gel-me-m --> gelmez miyim?
gel-me-yiz --> gelmez miyiz?
oku-ma-m --> okumaz mıyım?
oku-ma-yız --> okumaz mıyız?

haftaya sana uğramam - i won't visit you next week
haftaya sana uğramaz mıyım? - won't i visit you next week?

türkçede böyle söylemeyiz - we don't say it like that in turkish
türkçede böyle söylemez miyiz? - don't we say it like that in turkish?

i don't know why they change...maybe a native turkish speaker can help us??

18.       CANLI
5084 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 04:51 am

Ok,i found this örnek in my book too .

Anne şuna söyle,ben hiç yemek yapmaz mıyım? (yapMAm mı?)

Exactly like this,then it can be both 'mAz',and 'mA' ? :-S

Then it can be Yapmayız mı ,too ? :-S

19.       CANLI
5084 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 04:19 pm

Guys,any help here ?

20.       natiypuspi
435 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 04:54 pm

Quoting CANLI:


Then it can be Yapmayız mı ,too ? :-S




No, Canli; the right question is "biz yapmaz mıyız?
".
When you have a doubt about a conjugation, you can use winmekmak: I love it!

21.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 04:58 pm

Quoting natiypuspi:

No, Canli; the right question is "biz yapmıyor muyuz".



i don't think that is geniş zaman...

22.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 12 Jan 2007 Fri 05:00 pm

ah got it!!

23.       CANLI
5084 posts
 13 Jan 2007 Sat 01:50 am

Here,i found this example in HİTİT

Quoting CANLI:

Ok,i found this örnek in my book too .

Anne şuna söyle,ben hiç yemek yapmaz mıyım? (yapMAm mı?)

Exactly like this,then it can be both 'mAz',and 'mA' ? :-S

Then it can be Yapmayız mı ,too ? :-S

24.       qdemir
802 posts
 13 Jan 2007 Sat 01:57 am

Quoting CANLI:

Here,i found this example in HİTİT

Quoting CANLI:

Ok,i found this örnek in my book too .

Anne şuna söyle,ben hiç yemek yapmaz mıyım? (yapMAm mı?)

Exactly like this,then it can be both 'mAz',and 'mA' ? :-S

Then it can be Yapmayız mı ,too ? :-S



yapmaz mıyız? / yapmayız mı?

25.       metehan2001
501 posts
 13 Jan 2007 Sat 02:01 am

Quoting CANLI:

Here,i found this example in HİTİT

Quoting CANLI:

Ok,i found this örnek in my book too .

Anne şuna söyle,ben hiç yemek yapmaz mıyım? (yapMAm mı?)

Exactly like this,then it can be both 'mAz',and 'mA' ? :-S

Then it can be Yapmayız mı ,too ? :-S



Yapmaz mıyım? (formal Turkish) Present Tense/ Negative form

Yapmam mı?(colloquial Turkish)

26.       CANLI
5084 posts
 13 Jan 2007 Sat 02:09 am

Çok Tşkler qdemir,ve metehan2001
Ama nasıl 'maz' ,ve 'mI' değil? 'doğru mu?'
Why 'maz' and not 'mI' ?
İsn't the usual negative suffix 'mI' ?

Edited: oppsss,i meant 'mA' not 'mI'

27.       metehan2001
501 posts
 13 Jan 2007 Sat 02:27 am

Quoting CANLI:

Çok Tşkler qdemir,ve metehan2001
Ama nasıl 'maz' ,ve 'mI' değil? 'doğru mu?'
Why 'maz' and not 'mI' ?
İsn't the usual negative suffix 'mI' ?



Usually, the negative suffix is (-ma, -me,). But in Present Tense, negative suffix changes, a little. We add a (z) after suffix (-ma, -me). Specially, in negative question form of Present Tense.
An example:
gel-me(z) miyim?
gel-me(z) misin?
gel-me(z) mi?
gel-me(z) miyiz?
gel-me(z) misiniz?
gel-me(z) ler mi?

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