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I love how adults make rules for children who than grow up to either hate or feel inferior
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| 20. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 02:24 pm |
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Gavi, if it's about non-contact sports I agree with you that freedom of choice should be there - I love to see Navratilova and tennis bobo's like her that way. But can you explain why you think a headscarf should be possible with contact sports or - like Aenigma said - swimming or some type of athletics (rings etc)? I can imagine that pulling at clothes can make a dangerous situation, or drowning at waterpolo / swimming, hang yourself with gymnastics etc. I really like to hear your arguements.
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| 21. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 02:37 pm |
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Quote: I did not miss the point of the article at all. As far as I understand it, the wearing of the hijab or headscarf is to hide all "ornaments" that may be attractive to men. I will not debate the sensibilty or sexism involved in this culture in this thread. However, I was merely asking the question of other sports (which you have chosen not to answer). Swimming for example?
Lets start with this one first swimming is not requied in schools as a part of our physical education program so would be purely on a personal and family level whether a child would swim or not. Also if you wish to wear this in a public swimming pool it is of no concern to others. If you can swim you can swim. I have seen people swim with clothing on before.
Your point of "going to a school yard and watching children play" is a valid one. They are running free and unconcerned about their appearance or having the need to shamefully hide their hair or body or with the hinderance of wearing a hijab.
not quite the point. I was talking of the aspect of prejudice based on the color of your skin/religion or the clothing you wear. This had nothing to do with once again your adult view of children thinking they have shame of hiding hair........really think about it what about children who wear cruxifices attached to chains or little girls with holes in their ears and little crosses dangleing this was not the issue here again another forum differnt topic and of course in the right forum 
Anyway back to topic....soccer IS a contact sport and it could be extremely dangerous to wear such things while playing. This is my opinion.
when did soccer become a extremely dangerous sport for children if that were the case maybe we should ban it altogether
Presumably you posted this to initiate comment, but only if the comment supports YOUR theory!
not quite right dear.... you ideas were not related to the article in question that was of course posted in the wrong forum if you agree with the way this was handled by all means that is you opinion and allowed like anyone else's I was only making reference to how off topic this has become I will not repost on your view on this article anyfurther as it is now becoming silly
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| 22. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 02:39 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Gavi, if it's about non-contact sports I agree with you that freedom of choice should be there - I love to see Navratilova and tennis bobo's like her that way. But can you explain why you think a headscarf should be possible with contact sports or - like Aenigma said - swimming or some type of athletics (rings etc)? I can imagine that pulling at clothes can make a dangerous situation, or drowning at waterpolo / swimming, hang yourself with gymnastics etc. I really like to hear your arguements. |
OhI agree with you on this one it can hinder performance in many other sports ( this particular level of soccer is noncontact )
and should on a sport to sport* be address for safety concerns.*
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| 23. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 02:51 pm |
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Quoting gavi:
Lets start with this one first swimming is not requied in schools as a part of our physical education program so would be purely on a personal and family level whether a child would swim or not. Also if you wish to wear this in a public swimming pool it is of no concern to others. If you can swim you can swim. I have seen people swim with clothing on before. |
It is required by some countries as physical education (in the UK for example) and is an enjoyable pastime and form of play also. Even YOU must see that asking a child to swim in clothes would be ridiculous AND dangerous. The fact that a family would 'decide' on this supports my argument that it is the MUSLIM parents who are creating this 'difference' in their children and making them feel ostracised.
Quoting gavi:
not quite the point. I was talking of the aspect of prejudice based on the color of your skin/religion or the clothing you wear. This had nothing to do with once again your adult view of children thinking they have shame of hiding hair........really think about it what about children who wear cruxifices attached to chains or little girls with holes in their ears and little crosses dangleing this was not the issue here again another forum differnt topic and of course in the right forum ] |
A strange argument (again!). Children who wear a cross will happily remove it if it endangers them and I know of no parents who would insist it be worn to the detriment of their education or physical enjoyment. What have pierced ears got to do with religious adornments?
Quoting gavi:
when did soccer become a extremely dangerous sport for children if that were the case maybe we should ban it altogether . |
Again, surely you are aware that in football you are defending, fighting for the ball (this is why there are rules about fouling another player). You can be hurt playing football because you frequently come into contact with other players.
Quoting gavi: not quite right dear.... you ideas were not related to the article in question that was of course posted in the wrong forum if you agree with the way this was handled by all means that is you opinion and allowed like anyone else's I was only making reference to how off topic this has become I will not repost on your view on this article any further as it is now becoming silly
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I fail to see how my comments are not related to this topic and can only assume that your objections are purely because I am disagreeing with you!
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| 24. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 02:53 pm |
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Quoting gavi: Lets start with this one first swimming is not requied in schools as a part of our physical education program so would be purely on a personal and family level whether a child would swim or not. Also if you wish to wear this in a public swimming pool it is of no concern to others. If you can swim you can swim. I have seen people swim with clothing on before. |
Correction, maybe not in your country, but here in the Netherlands swimming is a compulsory aspect of primary schools program. We have too much water here to let people without that ability. The children must wear swimming clothes or very tight other clothes so the teacher can see their movements and correct them. Only when swimming for your exam there is a part that has to be done with clothes (with or without headscarf) and shoes or boots as well as an example for what could happen to you in real life.
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| 25. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 03:00 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Quoting gavi: Lets start with this one first swimming is not requied in schools as a part of our physical education program so would be purely on a personal and family level whether a child would swim or not. Also if you wish to wear this in a public swimming pool it is of no concern to others. If you can swim you can swim. I have seen people swim with clothing on before. |
Correction, maybe not in your country, but here in the Netherlands swimming is a compulsory aspect of primary schools program. We have too much water here to let people without that ability. The children must wear swimming clothes or very tight other clothes so the teacher can see their movements and correct them. Only when swimming for your exam there is a part that has to be done with clothes (with or without headscarf) and shoes or boots as well as an example for what could happen to you in real life. |
Muslim parents are allowed to send their children to public swimming lessons if they are under the age of puberty after having taken reasonable safeguards, such as sending them with proper attire for swimming and making sure there is no chance for girls and boys to be isolated.
Also here they may do other credits to give them the necessary marks needed in school. Would be the same as a child having no arms or legs. There is a reason they can not participate.
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| 26. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 03:05 pm |
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Quoting gavi: Muslim parents are allowed to send their children to public swimming lessons if they are under the age of puberty after having taken reasonable safeguards, such as sending them with proper attire for swimming and making sure there is no chance for girls and boys to be isolated.
Also here they may do other credits to give them the necessary marks needed in school. Would be the same as a child having no arms or legs. There is a reason they can not participate.
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So, effectively, the adults are hindering their children's education. They may only swim under the age of puberty and have to take different classes in order to gain the same credits as their non-muslim classmates. They are treated the same as if they were not able-bodied. You are saying then, that they are disabled because of their religion.
The decision by FIFA in Manchester was merely an addition to the obstacles already placed by the parents.
I rest my case!
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| 27. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 03:15 pm |
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to expect a child to swim with a hiljab or another form of headscarf is riduculous,if a girl is above the age of puberty then she can wear normal swimming attire (same as everyone else) during ladies only sessions, as for school sports I would not stop Hatice from participating in any sports and I woudl just ensure she wore trousers, not shorts and a loose fitting t-shirts,
i agree that its a personal decision whether or not to wear the headscarf, which I choose nto to do the majority of the time because I don't see the need. However, there are times when safety is more important than wearing your headscarf or any other religious symbol.
just my opinion
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| 28. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 03:15 pm |
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to expect a child to swim with a hiljab or another form of headscarf is riduculous,if a girl is above the age of puberty then she can wear normal swimming attire (same as everyone else) during ladies only sessions, as for school sports I would not stop Hatice from participating in any sports and I woudl just ensure she wore trousers, not shorts and a loose fitting t-shirts,
i agree that its a personal decision whether or not to wear the headscarf, which I choose nto to do the majority of the time because I don't see the need. However, there are times when safety is more important than wearing your headscarf or any other religious symbol.
just my opinion
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| 29. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 03:18 pm |
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Quoting gavi: Muslim parents are allowed to send their children to public swimming lessons if they are under the age of puberty after having taken reasonable safeguards, such as sending them with proper attire for swimming and making sure there is no chance for girls and boys to be isolated.
Also here they may do other credits to give them the necessary marks needed in school. Would be the same as a child having no arms or legs. There is a reason they can not participate. |
So a child that CAN use other clothing (but does not want to) is the same as a child that miss an arm or leg (and can't get an extra part)? Strange idea you have of both religion, choice and handicaps.
And classes are mixed, seperated classes are much too expensive. If a parents fails in sending his/her child, they will be fined - here.
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| 30. |
04 Mar 2007 Sun 03:23 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Quoting gavi: Muslim parents are allowed to send their children to public swimming lessons if they are under the age of puberty after having taken reasonable safeguards, such as sending them with proper attire for swimming and making sure there is no chance for girls and boys to be isolated.
Also here they may do other credits to give them the necessary marks needed in school. Would be the same as a child having no arms or legs. There is a reason they can not participate. |
So a child that CAN use other clothing (but does not want to) is the same as a child that miss an arm or leg (and can't get an extra part)? Strange idea you have of both religion, choice and handicaps.
And classes are mixed, seperated classes are much too expensive. If a parents fails in sending his/her child, they will be fined - here. |
in essex schools once they are in secondary schools the sports are segregated anyway so that men and women don;'t do sports together the majority of the time.
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