Hi,
I was reading my sunday newspaper and came across this headline story and felt quite upset. As the Turkish elections hit Turkey today it states that British property owners could be the biggest losers if the Nationalists win enough votes to enter parliament.

Nationalisim is growing in Turkey how will this affect British people living in Turkey or are thinking of buying property in Turkey. Turkey has tried to gain EU membership since 1963, when it was accepted as associate member of the European Community in 1987.

No problem - property buyers will just go elsewhere. At least we don't enter your country as "foreigners" and live off state benefits

Popular and growing public objection to foreigners buying land or property in Turkia, need worry only citizens of those countries where Turks are barred from enjoying reciprocal rights and priviledges.

Is that unfair?

I am sorry to say, Loveprague, that you will clearly not be welcome in Turkey! Perhaps you should follow the "usual route" and get a visa for your fiance to live in the UK!!!

Much better idea, Loveprague! Turkey (even the nationalists) welcome tourists with open arms. Just spend a nice lot of money while you are there!

Aenigma,

What is in discussion here..is not the right to go and live in another country, but the right to own property in another country.

You need not worry about your summer houses in Turkia, if Turks are allowed to legally buy similar property in England.

Unfortunately, Gizli's way of "retaliation" is always to change the subject and attack "foreigners" on different matters entirely instead of actually discussing the topic.

Dont even get me started on racism Gizli - you can be sanctimonious about racism when you can tell me it doesn't exist in Turkey

Before you speak of Dutch and Brit racism, take a good look at Africa and India....it took those native buggers years to realize it was a mistake to sell their houses in the first place.

Dont worry - all of your messages are quite clear. DON'T BUY PROPERTY IN TURKEY!

I hope you can find jobs for all the Turkish developers who keep building those villas....

c'mon guys i will buy yall a dinner cuz i think yall are hungry

It may come as a surprise to some people, but there are times when you carry riches from other countries by shiploads, yet then a time comes to pay back.

I dont think there will be many Indians or Pakistanis left in England when they eventually collect what you guys owe them. Until then, enjoy the curry.

The rumour is that the Island will soon be flooded by waters from melting icebergs, anyway.

Try to avoid personal attacks....keep discussions at academic level, and put some sense of humor into all this...

Nationalism is a farce, and it is supporters are hypocrites. No one choose which family, race, religion, etc.. it was going to be born in to. So how come some people think that they are better than other people because they were born into a "better" family, race, etc.. Also what defines a nation, is race, who is %100 pure? everyone comes from Ethiopia according to the theory of evolution. So the whole race thing goes to the bin. Is it language? What if someone learns the language of the country? Does that make them automatically from that nation? Is it just geological? what if someone moves to that land? Is it ideology? Does everyone think the same in a country?

My brother owns a business in UK, and there are more people from Turkey in UK then there are Brits in TR. Most of these people are nationalists and they own houses and businesses here.i don't understand some of your accusations and i hope you learned something new today.

I really do wonder why some of you people come to this site! Not to make new friends and learn about other cultures it seems but to safeguard Turkey's precious reputation!

Aenigma, there is no way we could be more satisfying friends to anyone, in this group or elsewhere, if we stray from qualities that makes us who we are. Remember Turks were around long before England came into existence and icebergs are melting...

SHOCK NEWS!

If global warming continues the ice caps will melt completely, the sea level will rise, the gulf-stream will disappear and HALF of the world's population and animal species will be wiped out. The earth will become largely uninhabitable....but....

....AlphaF will be happy because he can say "I told you so" to the UK....

reciproicty is the main rule for the international policies and relationships,so all countries have to be carefull about that for a just relationship,you will creat big difficulties just for a visa even for a foreigner and you will wait big freedoms or rights from another country,really big hypocricy.You can be a strong or powerfull country with ur technology or strong economy,but no one never have to forget thats never a reason for to be bossy on international relationships.Racism a big danger for all world,but pity it starting with the innocent nationalist policies...eqauality thats the rule of nature for peace,for the nations even..

other countries will be in relationship with a more stronger,stabil and powerfull Turkey since monday morning,and our great country will be very hosbitable and very welcomed for the foreigners in the reciprocity rules...

Oh deli-kızın our country cant be she. İt is "he"

While you are all shouting about reciprocal agreements and the unfairness of the visa system in our countries, perhaps I could (gently) remind you why our governments have those visa restrictions in place!

The fact is, when people travel to Turkey on their holiday, they return home.

When a large percentage of Turkish people travel to the UK on holiday, they DON'T return home!!!

Don't blame OUR governments for this - blame your own people!!!

Vineyards, I think you ought to do your share of research as well. Racism and nationalism didn't start in the west, they are universal human traits. If you trace the evolutionary path, you will see that racism and nationalism are deeply engraved in our monkey past (you think the west also taught it to Chimps?). 'Prominent forces of the East did not give it a thought'???? What about the Romans, Ottomans, Ataturk... Oh, please
Is YOUR mind formatted to think that the West is the source of all evil and the East is the model of morality?

I agree that the West is not flawless, and all Westerners will agree with you on that as well. Interestingly, all Easterners think that the East is perfect and only the West has problems (and if you don't agree with that, they'll settle it 'peacefully' )...

How did you get to the conclusion that we don't care about the people in Iraq or Iran? That's quite a serious accusation, you know?

Friends

AN EYE FOR AN EYE MAKES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND - Mahatma Gandhi

I could list a pile of atrocities in Turkey (3 people in Malatya in May, one of them I knew his wife as a customer of the story) and many things we did wrong as Brits around the world, and probably are still doing, and sadly probably now and again will still do. But I wont, as that dont solve anything, bring any of us nearer to understanding each other etc.

There should be a difference between being proud of your own nation (a positive virtue) and racist to others (a negative and ugly trait).

Can't we just try to get on? And cut off this thread here? I had hoped this class was one of mates who were trying to understand each other and help each other graduate!

Please cancel my membership taking effect immediately.
Please also be kind enough to delete all my posts from your site if it is technically possible.

Best regards

Akin

I apologize for my last comment, I was wrong.

Hi vineyards,

no need to quit your membership..There has been a total misunderstanding here. I also apologize in lieu of everyone here..
Please stay..We need you here...You have made a great contribution to this website with translations and cultural informations..

please stay...

We don't, of course, have anything to say upon an apology. However, this has happened so often recently. Sometimes an apology, even a sincere one, can't suffice to repair some detrimental harms on people's hearts.

On her apology there is no need to mention what she has said. We assume that it was a sincere apology, and hope that such a thing won't happen again.

From my point of view, her apology is accepted. However, this does not give the right to add/remove things in a thread in anyway you like. My message was removed without a warning. Therefore, there is a broken link here and people are having difficulty understanding what is really going on and why one of the Turkish members is quiting for no reason..

And just so the site managers are aware, making the statement that "Kemalism" is a created, western evil is criminal in Turkey. I would expect comments like these to be made by those that oppose Turkey, not by those who are here supposedly promoting it.

I cant believe tha we all keep staying this site. One of site's admin insults founder of our Turkish republic M.Kemal Atatürk in Turkish Language Class. Site believes that removing the message and dry apology would be enough. I wish before we left they could remove catwomen. But in this case ı am asking to be removed too. I am not a big loss like vineyards but ı know someone will miss me too. Dig in your hate hole! Kemalism will remain forever.

İm sorry but im kinda lost here,what do you mean exactly by Islamisms ?

İs it following the İslam values having Faith in them therefore being Muslim ?

Or doing the extreme to unacceptable level in the name of İslam which its far from it?

Dear aslı and vineyards,

catwoman has just PMd me explaining the situation and being so sorry for causing so much confusion amongsts people. My personal opinion is that I find her message quite sincire and I put all these writings into a cultural conflict issue which both sides should possibly compromise.
Let me tell you a little true story about myself. I remember when I first went to the US back in 1993, I didn't speak English at all. I took an english class in the US and started learning so many English vocabulary words and tried to practice the new vocabulary words with native English speakers outside the class. One of the words that I had learnt was "accost". In dictionary it means "to ask a question", but it may also mean "to approach someone and bother his/her feelings", in other words "sarkıntılık etmek" in Turkish, which I learned later on. Anyway, I approached a really attractive lady siting at a cafe and said "Excuse me! Can I accost you?", and she was like "WHAT?. No way!"

This is what I call a learning process if someone is trying to find out more about a totally different culture. A cross-cultural learning process which sometimes can get very confusing. I guess catwoman has just found herself in one of those situations..

My personal feeling is that catwoman has learned something new about the Turkish culture although it seems that some feelings got hurt..and I understand that .. However, Like I have said, this is a learning process and I feel that this situation should be compromised.

aslı, vineyards and catwoman, please you all come back to this side with peace..there has been a total cultural misunderstanding and I am sure that catwoman has learned something new about the Turkish culture. I would expect catwoman , aslı and vineyard contact each other, sort this issue out peacefully...PLEASE....Life is really short..Let's calm down and become friends again..

Cheer up folks,

May peace be with you ..

I don't understand what's so surprising about Catwoman's behaviour here. Using terrible sarcastic language towards Turkish people is her usual habit in the forum. Quite possibly, you might speak nonsense when you are trying to be sarcastic.

What peace are you talking about? She will continue "criticizing Turkish people." and probably will not give up using sarcastic tone. What happened now is inevitable. And I told her so.

Now I have the right to put my thoughts about the issue.

Quite a few saints here, but we are all keeping silent

Nothing wrong with criticizing Turkish people. Sarcasm is here the trouble. Catwoman uses sarcasm too much especially to upset Turkish people, which is called "Criticizing Turkish people" by Catwoman again. I used quotation mark here. It's so called "Criticizing Turkish people."

The other thing is why Turkish users leave? Don't they know Catwoman's behaviours. She could say anything to "Criticize Turkish people."

Gizli Yuz, you are right that I am sarcastic a lot, that's what I do in regards to everything
Anyways, before you continue bashing me, would you please read the explanation that I wrote? I actually didn't mean anything sarcastic about Turkey this time, you know?
You guys completely took it out of context. I see that it was easy to take it that way, therefore I apologized..

Not that I am "bashing" Catwoman because I have a very personal problem with Catwoman and now she's easy target. I am "bashing" Catwoman here because she was warned before.

Is this your explanation? :

"Hoping to correct the misunderstanding, I'd like to add that I did NOT mean that "Kemalism or Islamism are western evils", I was trying to be sarcastic and ask a question - "are they Western?" and "are they evil?" to challenge the fact that all "-isms" come from the West and that all "-isms" are bad. I actually used Kemalism as something good here."

i think time to leave from TC,not easy to understand why peacfull commentes deleting on here?i think theres admistration faults on this site lately,so why people hurting each other.it was very nice to know new friends from different countries and cultures,and was really good to share opinions with all.İ wish all the bests for all Tc users,hope we can meet again on somewhere of friendship bridge dostlar....and now pls delete my membership dear admins,and i wish you all big success on this great journey with my all regards..

Guys,lets be calm out here a little bit,
This stiuation is not the first,and im afraid wont be the last too.
To talk sarcastic about İslam,and Türkiye is not acceptable of course,i know catwoman has apologized as she did before too.
But let's be reasonable here,or shall i say realistic,
What has catwoman said ,and not all'and i say again ALL' the Western countries not saying it out loud ?

Maybe there are some logical Western people dont think the same,but the governments attitude not saying this im afraid.

At least she is brave enough and stated the truth about the stiuation which is sadly the real one !

Yes,she shouldnt has said that,because we try to get close here as people and as cultures.
We try to understand each other with RESPECT.

And i have a word or two to you all Turkish people.

You are arguing and not accepting what have been said 'which im with you %100'
But what did you do about it ? huh ?

You just withdraw from a battle as simple as that ?
You shout,you fight, so people will draw back ?

Ohhhh,pleasee,get real here.

First,we have learnt that a good words got more effect than a weapon, right ?
So talk ,join and let Western people know you,to see how wrong they are,or their governments on judging you.

Second,is this the Turkish character ?
İs this the way you won your wars in the long history of your Empire?
This is what you've learnt from your history ?

To draw back ? !!!

İm disappointed really

You dont feel its enough for her to apologize,especially because that is not the first time
İ agree with that, so, there is another solution to show your protest

How about,to pick a date and lets say today or tomorrow,and all Turkish people and everyone felt offended about this not sharing in any activity in TC
No posting nor translating,even you are here,but dont join.

This way, you will feel you made a good reaction,you have protest in a positive way and at same time not drawing from a battle !

Doğru mu ?

Qdemir I was wrong! I made the mistake in thinking you were in support of the other Turkish posts here, when in fact it was just your obsession with teasing Catwoman !

I do apologise and retract my comments to you.

I am now going to commence reading of your 621 posts as punishment........

Hmmmm. So if I took your reasoning, Canli,I would assume that all Turkish people agree that headscarfs should be banned in schools and universities, even though Turkey is 90% muslim?

I think the most damaging part is that catwoman deleted her posts that crossed the line. Its easy now to say what she meant to say because its not here to be judged any longer.
Believe me, I criticisize something about Istanbul every day. The traffic, the air pollution, the hills, the traffic.... But making comments to criticize Ataturk is different. This would be similar to being on a Christian discussion board and damning Jesus.

Keith I didn's see Catwoman's post about Ataturk, but I do know that she has great admiration for him, as do I. Are you sure her post wasn't misunderstood?

I read her post, and I read it the same way as Akin and Aslı. I read it as a statement, not a sarcastic question. Furthermore, if it wasn't so damaging, why did she delete it rather than leave it and explain it?

Again, this site is about promoting Turkey and she is a site administrator. Even her quote stating that the raeson Turks shouldn't get VISA's is because "they don't go home" might be a little inapropriate for a person in her position.

I guess I'm a bit naive then. To me this site has always been more than a place just to learn turkish.

But don't forget one significant point. The statement in her post is a crime in Turkey. I don't think the "owner" of this site keeps this site going only to get it banned from Turkish internet providers. I know that sound extreme, but this is true.

I wasn't comparing Ataturk to Jesus as people. My point is that on a Christian website, it is going to get the general public upset by criticizing Jesus. You will get the same reaction from Turks by criticizing Ataturk. His powerful legacy is the reason behind the massive demonstations this summer.

I locked this thread because of complaints.