Never mind.
I just wonder what would be your answers to those questions.

Apperantly, you don't have good answers.

What makes you think that my L1 is not Turkish?
(Anadilimin Türkçe olmadığı hissine nereden kapıldın?)

Boyle bir hisse kapilmadim.

The only reason why I wanted to know whether you are a native speaker or a student is not because I lack the answers, as you arrogantly suggested, but so that I could offer a response to your questions in accordance with your proficiency in Turkish.

Now that I know you speak Turkish as your mother tongue, as I was kind of suspecting, I am wodering whether you would be able to prove that "Bende bilmem ki." is actually "grammatical" before I prove to you that it is not grammatical.

You can be assured that I am not beating around the bush for lack of answers. It is just that I am curious why you think that a sentence such as "Bende bilmem ki." is proper.

Everyone uses "ki" in this way, educated or not. I don't think it matters whether it's considered grammatically correct or not. That's just a classification, but it's just as important for anyone learning Turkish to know. It's accepted as part of the language. I'm not Turkish, but I've discussed it with my girlfriend, and I hear it from her and her friends all the time. Understanding ki, would definitely help me to understand and speak with them.

Everyone doesn't use ki in the same way, actually, and that is part of the problem.

There are some studies (I apologize for not citing) that suggest that the Istanbulite girls, for example, use their "ki" rather differently and more often than guys. (Think about the way younger girls use "ki" randomly in daily speech simply because it sounds "cute". - Ay simdi bende ne desem bilmem ki askim is nothing other than a trend in slang, which may perhaps become standard over time. In the US, apparently, teenage girls use their "like" differently than teenage boys.)

Other studies show that Turks of Eastern Anatolian origin use their "ki", within their dialects, differently than Turks of western origin. Azeris, who have the same Farsi "ki" in their dialect use it in their own different way, as well. If you read modern Turkish literature of the periods closer to the linguistic revolution, you would see a very different use of 'ki' than the one that is in use today.

The problem with the "ki" form is that it is still settling itself and is still evolving. "Ki" is not a linguistic fossil in Turkish. It is a recent addition, and the rules of its use are still evolving along the lines that the younger generation chooses - namely, its slang use.

Just think about the use of "ki" as below:

- Hangisi? / Which one?
- Seninkisi. / Yours.

Using "ki" in this way is also rather recent, and a bit unusual, but nevertheless, standardized by now.

My only advise regarding "ki" is that it is not that much of a deal. Be able to recognize it in print when it serves the function of conjoining two clauses. If you hear it in speech, its use is often arbitrary and a matter of style.

"Bende bilmiyorum ki." can be expressed equally well as "Valla bilmiyorum, bilmiyorum, bilemeyecegim, bilmem, bilmem ne desem etc." without the use of "ki".

"O kim ki oyle demis?" can also be expressed in other ways by omitting the "ki".

Turkish is just so much easier and pleasent without the "ki"

I agree with you. It is derived like that. But, think about the Latin verb "sentire" (from which we derive sense, sentiment, sensory etc.), which seems to have a strange similarity to "san+mak (as in san+ik)/zan+mak (as in zan+li or zan+et+tim).

San+ik san+ki kacabilecegini san+arak san+ik sandalyesinden firladi. / The accused attempted to escape from his seat thinking as if he could escape.

Look how many "san"s are used.

Or, think about the phrase...
"Sandigimi sanarak"
"San+et+ek+em san+ar+ak"

"Zannedersem" = "Zan+et+er+ise+m"

I suspect that in future Turkish, this elusive "ki" may even become something like the question particle -mi,mu in certain ways.

We say things like "- Gormus mu ki?", for example.

I think we all know what an ellipsis (...), or the elliptical construction is.

What is interesting here is the logic of illogicality in your reply.

Do you assume that just because a sentence is formed through elliptical formation that sentence immediately becomes grammatical?

Your "gittim ki" example, for instance, is neither grammatical nor would it get you an 'A' from your Turkish grammar teacher regardless of how hard you may argue that it was formed through an elliptical formation. If you travel to southwestern Turkey, you may hear villagers say a corrupted version of the "gittim ki", which becomes something like "gittin ni ki?", asking whether you have gone somewhere. Although "gittin ni ki?" is also an elliptical formation, it is neither grammatical, nor is it spelled correctly.

Another bogus formation that one could hear easily on the streets of Istanbul would be something like "Hangisininki ki?", which could also be categorized as an elliptical formation. Is "hangisininki ki" grammatical as well?

You are comparing oranges to apples. Explaining that "ben de bilmem ki" is formed through elliptical formation sheds no light on whether the sentence itself is grammatical anymore than explaining that the sentence is written in Roman letters. The type of formation is called elliptical simply because it uses the ellipsis as a metaphor, not because elliptical formations automatically guarantee proper & grammatical sentences.

However, you get a major pat on the back for knowing such big words, and attemting to impress us with them. Although I am certainly impressed, I also feel such bombastic arguments should be reserved for impressing the ballooney attendants of a boring dinner party. You medal is on its way. Or, would I be more elliptical if I just said "medalyan yolda ki."

I am sure you would still get my point ...



Cheers

Cynicmystic,

All the examples I have provided mean different things with the addition of "final ki". Take the "final ki" out and their meanings change.

You can avoid it if you find it ungrammatical and express it in some other way, that's your choice.

benim üniversitedeki hocama gore (turk dilbilgisi dersleri veriyor) 'ki' dogrudur. O da yillarca bogazicida ders vermis. Niye o oyle bir sey diyor ki dogru olmasaydi

neyse ya ben bilmiyorum. aslinda da cok onemli degil. ogrencilerin bunun ogrenmesi de gerek cunku turk dilinin bir parcasidir. dogruysa da yanlissa da, cunku artik herkes kullaniyor.