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ki, olarak and somethings!
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1.       Zubaidah
10 posts
 05 Oct 2007 Fri 05:22 pm

I wonder really what "ki" means.
Like biliyorumki = i know THAT.

But things like
benimki or istanbuldaki and so on, what is the correct translation for "ki"?

And also
tanisarak, olarak and so on, whats that?


yapmam, gelmem and this types of terms, can be used like
bilmem = i dont know
gelmem = i dont come

but also it can be used in other ways like
gitmem lazim = i need to go
when do i use this instead of gitmek or gitmeye??

sonuca, gelince?

olmasa, example "olsaydınız ne eklerdiniz"

dört dörtlük?

mesela?



bir durum?
yüzüme..?
vazgectim - vazgecmek?


Thanks =)

2.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 05 Oct 2007 Fri 11:49 pm

Hello Zubaidah,

I was worried that someone would ask these questions

Let's start with the infamous "ki". This "ki" entered the Turkish lingo as a result of old interactions with the Indo-European language speakers, and eventually naturalized itself over the centuries to the point that it now feels perfectly Turkish to the native speakers.

This "ki" is the same "ki" in Farsi, "que" in the Romance languages etc. The primary problem with this "ki", which is nothing but a conjunctor in the sense that it is supposed to conjoin two spearate predicaments, is that most Turks either do not know how to form coherent & grammatically correct sentences with "ki", or that they have quite a difficult time doing so. Briefly, the formation of proper "ki" sentences is a pain in the ass even for native speakers, who, in turn, constantly misuse "ki" in slang.

As a result, foreigners trying to learn Turkish get really confused about what they read in their grammar books and what they hear Turks say in daily speech.

- Anladim KI beni sevmiyormus. / I understood THAT he didn't love me.
- Bosalt ki bende tekrar doldurayim. / Empty it so that I can fill it again.
- Sus ki konusabilsin. / Be silent so that she can speak.

On the other hand, something like "bende bilmem ki" is slang, ungrammatical as it is incomplete, and is, in most cases, used in place of "bilmiyorum or bilmem", meaning nothing other than "I don't know." The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong. Nevertheless, this colloquial form is extremely common.

"Bilmem ki naapsak (ne yapsak) simdi?" is another bogus formation, meaning "I don't know what we are supposed to do now." I could change this into "Bende bilmem ki ne yapsak simdi" or could simply say "Bilmem ne yapsak simdi". This could also take -ki and become "Bilmem ki ne yapsak simdi". They all mean the same thing. Bogus slang naturalizing itself. In everyday speech the use of "ki" is more of a style rather than a matter of Turkish language syntax. And, you can acquire this style only by observing how natives speak. In the written and formal form, on the other hand, "ki" is always used according to the grammar rules. In this role, it is very similar to the use of "that" in English, or "que" in Romance tongues. Your ability as a writer to use "ki" properly pretty much determines whether you are educated or not for those who have not done "dilbilgisi/grammar" exercises at school will often use "ki" incorrectly. As a result, you hear Istanbulites of Eastern Anatolian origin saying starange sentecnes, such as "Simdi arasam ki oda gelse" (meaning something like "I should call him so that he can come"). Then, you hear the so-called "educated" Istanbulite say something common, yet ungrammatical, as " O kim ki oyle demis?" (Who is he to say that?). Clearly, no Turk is actually sure about exactly how to use this "ki".

Regarding your question about bilmem/yapmam etc., I have to say that Turkish is the only language I know that has a rather strange system of double-meaning, in which one meaning is the opposite of the other meaning of the word. I agree that it is very absurd and have no explanation why this is so.

For example,

Anla+mak / to understand
Anla+ma / 1. Do not understand! 2. The act of understanding (something)
Anla+ma+mak / not to understand
Anla+m / meaning
Anla+s+a+ma+mak / not to get along (with each other)
Anlas+mak / to get along (with each other)

In all of these examples there are two dual and opposing meanings that are confusing.

"Anlamadim" (I didn't understand) can actually be broken down as (ANLA+MA)+ET+EM, which has become ANLAMADIM in Modern Turkish.
(ANLAMA) refers to the concept of NOT understanding & ET, which is the verb ET+MEK (to do) takes -EM for first person singular saying that you are doing the act of NOT understanding (basicall not understanding.)

I regret to say that there are no shortcuts to mastering this strange duality of the meaning of the -ma suffix. Although it is invisible to the native speakers, I can see how confusing it must be for someone trying to learn Turkish.

Regarding your question about the use of bilmem lazim vs bilmek lazim, the "bilmem, yapmam, etmem, gormem" forms are generally used with words, such as gerek (need) or lazim (necessary). Accordingly, bilmem gerek (I have to know) becomes bilmen gerek (you have to know).

Bilmek gerek on the other hand refers to the general concept of knowing about something.

- Universiteye gitmek icin once liseye gitmek gerek. / In order to go to university, one, first, has to go to high school.

- Universiteye gitmem icin once liseye gitmem gerek. / In order for ME to go to university, I, first have to go to high school.


- Beni anlamAN icin once beni sevmEN lazim. / You have to love me before you can understand me.

- Beni anlaMAK icin once sevmEN lazim. / You have to love me before you can understand me.

- Beni anlaMAK icin once sevMEK lazim. / In order to understand me, one has to love first.

- Beni anlaMAK icin once sevebilMEK lazim. / In order to understand me, one has to be able to love first.

- Beni anlamAN icin once sevebilmEN lazim. / You have to be able to love me before you can understand me.

- BenIM icin senIN buNU anlamAN onemli. / It is important for me that you understand this.

BenIM icin buNU anlaMAK onemli. / It is important for me to understand this.

SenIN icin buNU anlamAN onemli. / It is important for you that you understand this.

Gercegi bilmEN herkes icin onemli. / It is important for everyone that you kow the truth.

Gercegi bilMEK herkes icin onemli. / Knowing the truth is important for everyone.

I hope that some of these examples may shed some light on you path. Other than that, I am still analyzing the Turkish language myself. Maybe others may add more.

Regarding "tanisarak, olarak" etc., there are two suffixes that are fused into each other - (A,E,I,UR) and (A,EK).

Tanismak / To meet
Tanis+ar+ak / Roughly translates as "as a result of meeting each other", but it all evetually depends on the context.

- Konus+ar+ak anlastik. / We agreed after (through) talking.

Note how similar "Konus+AR" is to "Konus+UR" (someone who speaks, speaking etc), as in "Konus+UR+UM" (I speak, am speaking).

- SevisEREK evlendik. / Rouhgly translated as we made a love-marriage rather than a pre-arranged one.

- SavasARAK kurtulabildik. / We managed to survive by fighting.

- Devamli telefonda konusARAK kontagi kaybetmedik. / We managed not to lose contact with each other by talking over the telephone all the time.

Hence, you can assume that when you see the varient forms of this double siffix -arak, it usually denotes the act of doing the verb it is attached to. "Konusarak" can mean "through the act of talking, or while talking, by talking etc." depending on the context.

Cheers


Quoting Zubaidah:

I wonder really what "ki" means.
Like biliyorumki = i know THAT.

But things like
benimki or istanbuldaki and so on, what is the correct translation for "ki"?

And also
tanisarak, olarak and so on, whats that?


yapmam, gelmem and this types of terms, can be used like
bilmem = i dont know
gelmem = i dont come

but also it can be used in other ways like
gitmem lazim = i need to go
when do i use this instead of gitmek or gitmeye??

sonuca, gelince?

olmasa, example "olsaydınız ne eklerdiniz"

dört dörtlük?

mesela?



bir durum?
yüzüme..?
vazgectim - vazgecmek?


Thanks =)

3.       Dilara
1153 posts
 06 Oct 2007 Sat 04:39 am

cynicmystic :
Your post is the best I have read here lately!!!!!
Thank you, turkish learners like me are very grateful for your help and great explanations. Actually, nobody had ever told me what you wrote about -KI and yes, it is a real HEADACHE for learners! When I use it I do like this :

"Eminim ki beni hatirliyorsun"

But when I see it like that:

"Ama sen hiç gelmedin ki"!!!!

I dont know how to translate , I just DONT KNOW!!!!
I hope you can help me with my doubts.
Please, go on contributing to this site!!!!
Çok tesekkurler,
Dilara.

4.       DaveT
70 posts
 06 Oct 2007 Sat 09:09 am

That was indeed a fine explanation. Thank you so much.

5.       !!!Gabriella!!!
30 posts
 06 Oct 2007 Sat 11:23 am

Cynicmystic I really wanna tell you HATS OFF !!!!!! It was excellent explanation!!!! ´Cause I must say, "ki" is for me "the linguistic nut" too because of difference between Turkish and my my language (Czech)...
But after reading your post I´m about some "ki-rules" clever...
really thank you!!!!!

6.       Zubaidah
10 posts
 06 Oct 2007 Sat 03:28 pm

Yes I really agree.
I do understand so much more now. Im an arabic native speaker and we also have a word like "ki" wich nobody really understands nowadays, but everybody keeps using.
This "ki" is a headache, indeed, but everything is so much clearer now thanks to you!
Keep up the good work!

7.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 06 Oct 2007 Sat 07:40 pm

Hi Dilara,

I am really happy to see that my post is of some help. I have the exact same problem when I try to translate sentences from one language to another.

In "Ama sen hic gelmedin ki.", you are naturally wondering about the function of "ki" at the end.

In this sentence, the primary key to look at is the first word "ama" (but), which clearly indicates that the context is clear to the speakers, and that the context is about one of them being absent or not having gone somewhere. They must have been talking at least for a bit about something before this sentence could be uttered. In coloquial speech, when you see "ki" being used in this way, what you are observing is actually a subconscious attempt to rid the sentence of the unnecessary part that is by then understood by both speakers. I know I sound a bit confusing, but I think this is the only way to understand the use of "ki" in this manner.

Let's assume that a son bumps into his father at the market, whom he hadn't seen for eight years due to a bad argument. The son, who had a baby very recently, is rather resentful of his father for not having put their differences aside to come by & see his newly born grandson.

In such a situation, were you to hear the son say to his father: "- Ama sende hic gelmedin ki", the ki is referring to the "real" issue, which is hidden, and yet know to the speakers. The real issue is that the grandfather has not yet seen his grandson.

- Ama sende hic gelmedin ki (torununu gorseydin./to see your grandson.) Technically speaking the conjuctor is there to connect two concepts, but the speakers both know what they are talking about, and hence the part that is unnecessary to mention again, which is the second part about not having seen the grandson is omitted. This omission serves two purposes for the native speaker in the sense that there is some kind of word economy taking place, and that the speaker is able to hint at something without being too direct or harsh. Think about it this way. Maybe, the father is already feeling emberrased that he has been a stubborn goat, and has not been forgiving his son even after something as important as the birth of a grandson. Now, if the son had said: "- Ama sende hic gelmedin ki torununu gorseydin.", this would perhaps sound like rubbing salt on an open wound. "- Had you come, you would have seen your grandson!" vs. "I feel sad that you haven't been around yet to see your grandson." One form is resentful, and the other is accusative.

So, if you really have to translate the meaning of a "ki" at the end of a sentence as the final word, I would suggest that it is best to find out what the "ki" is referring to in context prior to that sentence being said. What is the conversation about? What was the last topic in the last few sentences? If you listen to native speakers chit-chat, you would notice that as time goes on sentences tend to become shorter & shorter, as much of which should be clear from context is now omitted by the speakers.

Personally, I think of this "ki" more like a virus, and try to avoid it both in speech and writing.

I am also much confused about how this "ki" found a way to glue itself to SAN+mak (to suppose, imagine, think), and became SANKI (as if). Another linguistic mystery.

Quoting Dilara:

cynicmystic :
Your post is the best I have read here lately!!!!!
Thank you, turkish learners like me are very grateful for your help and great explanations. Actually, nobody had ever told me what you wrote about -KI and yes, it is a real HEADACHE for learners! When I use it I do like this :

"Eminim ki beni hatirliyorsun"

But when I see it like that:

"Ama sen hiç gelmedin ki"!!!!

I dont know how to translate , I just DONT KNOW!!!!
I hope you can help me with my doubts.
Please, go on contributing to this site!!!!
Çok tesekkurler,
Dilara.

8.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 06 Oct 2007 Sat 11:52 pm

Thank you. I am glad it is of help.

9.       Dilara
1153 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 01:06 am

Bir daha, çok tesekkur ederim cynicmystic,
Senin Yazdigin açıklama gerçekten faydaliydi!
"Ki" daha kolay görünüyor şimdi
Lutfen, burada yardim etmeye devam et,
Çok tesekkurler,
Dilara.

10.       vineyards
1954 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 02:49 am

Cynicmystic, I think you are a bit unfair to Turkish native speakers. Now that it seems you should also mind your own "-de"s and "de"s which is a very common confusion; we are left with no one to speak Turkish good enough by your own reasoning.

11.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 04:45 am

well,
that's why I am called
cynicmystic
I am actually a cynical bastard...

Quoting vineyards:

Cynicmystic, I think you are a bit unfair to Turkish native speakers. Now that it seems you should also mind your own "-de"s and "de"s which is a very common confusion; we are left with no one to speak Turkish good enough by your own reasoning.

12.       alameda
3499 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 06:39 am

Actually, it's the same in English. Most native English speakers have very little technical knowledge of how to put things together. That seems to be a common problem. Some how we muddle through.

It is amazing we communicate as well as we do, what with the complexity and imprecision in spoken and written language.

Quoting cynicmystic:

well,
that's why I am called
cynicmystic
I am actually a cynical bastard...

Quoting vineyards:

Cynicmystic, I think you are a bit unfair to Turkish native speakers. Now that it seems you should also mind your own "-de"s and "de"s which is a very common confusion; we are left with no one to speak Turkish good enough by your own reasoning.

13.       si++
3785 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 08:11 am

Quote:

On the other hand, something like "bende bilmem ki" is slang, ungrammatical as it is incomplete, and is, in most cases, used in place of "bilmiyorum or bilmem", meaning nothing other than "I don't know." The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong. Nevertheless, this colloquial form is extremely common.



What makes you think it is slang? and why should it be ungrammatical because it is imcomplete?

What do you mean by "The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong"?

14.       Dsmith
6 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 08:37 am

My girlfriend's always using "ki" in this kind of way, and I still can't figure it out. I've asked her, but she can't really explain it. She compares it to saying "well", like just a filler word, but I don't think "well" is quite right. I guess it'll just take some time to get a feel for it.

15.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 09:04 am



"Ama sen hiç gelmedin ki"!!!!



When I see this type of "ki" written I always think the speaker must be using a "whiney" or a "cross" or "frustrated" voice, 'cos it is used in slang a bit like that.

Hiç gelmedin ki: BUT you didn't come

(accusation, or in defence when someone accuses you e.g. Neden yemek daha önce hazırlamadın? Sen bana haber vermedin ki!)

16.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 06:05 pm

You still haven't clarified whether you speak Turkish as your mother tongue or whether you are a student. When you do that, I will bother to reply to your posts.

Quoting si++:

Quote:

On the other hand, something like "bende bilmem ki" is slang, ungrammatical as it is incomplete, and is, in most cases, used in place of "bilmiyorum or bilmem", meaning nothing other than "I don't know." The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong. Nevertheless, this colloquial form is extremely common.



What makes you think it is slang? and why should it be ungrammatical because it is imcomplete?

What do you mean by "The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong"?

17.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 06:26 pm

Quoting cynicmystic:

You still haven't clarified whether you speak Turkish as your mother tongue or whether you are a student. When you do that, I will bother to reply to your posts.



Quoting cynicmystic:

well,
that's why I am called
cynicmystic
I am actually a cynical bastard...



Ouhhhhhh! I love your style

18.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 08:03 pm

Ben de bilmem ki.

I dont see where this is grammatically wrong.

Bende = de = ismin 'de'hali, yani bulunma hali (locative)
Ben de = bağlaç, bağlama görevinde.



ki = a word that comes from Farsi. İt is used in different ways.

Bazen ki'nin bağlama funksiyonu ön planda, ki bir yardımcı cümleyi kendisinden önce gelen asıl cümleyi bağlıyor:
- görüyorum ki çalışmışsın

Ama.. bazen de bu bağlama fonksiyonu yok. Yalnız küvvetlendirme edatı şeklinde de kullanılır:
- Seninle konuşulmaz ki!
- Bilmem ki!

Küvvetlendirme, şaşırma gösteriyor. Bütün dünyadaki diller gibi, Türkçe de başka dillerden bazı kelimeler almış. 'Ki' konusunda, anlattığın gibi, biraz zor oluyor. When using 'ki' in the meaning of 'que', it becomes problematic: to use ki we need a complete different structure of sentence, and not the genitive construction that is normally used in 'correct' Turkish:
- Çalıştığını gördüm
- Gördüm ki çalışmışsın.

However, it has been taken into Turkish official university grammar books for years and has become a regular, correct form of the Turkish language. The difference with 'que' is, that 'ki' in most cases expresses some sort of surprise or discontent.

Maybe it doesnt look that good in written documents, newspapers (there is always a difference between formal and informal language, whether it is based on grammar, wordorder or pronounciation), but in the konuşma dilinde, İstanbullular can use it if they prefer. This doesnt mean there is no such thing as 'ki' being used grammatcially incorrect, ama bu zaten kelimelerin yarisi icin sayilir.

19.       lady in red
6947 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 08:19 pm

Quoting !!!Gabriella!!!:

Cynicmystic I really wanna tell you HATS OFF !!!!!! It was excellent explanation!!!! ´Cause I must say, "ki" is for me "the linguistic nut" too because of difference between Turkish and my my language (Czech)...
But after reading your post I´m about some "ki-rules" clever...
really thank you!!!!!



+1 - that was the clearest explanation of a grammar point I think I've ever seen here - thanks very much!

20.       si++
3785 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 08:21 pm

Never mind.
I just wonder what would be your answers to those questions.

Apperantly, you don't have good answers.

What makes you think that my L1 is not Turkish?
(Anadilimin Türkçe olmadığı hissine nereden kapıldın?)

Quoting cynicmystic:

You still haven't clarified whether you speak Turkish as your mother tongue or whether you are a student. When you do that, I will bother to reply to your posts.

Quoting si++:

Quote:

On the other hand, something like "bende bilmem ki" is slang, ungrammatical as it is incomplete, and is, in most cases, used in place of "bilmiyorum or bilmem", meaning nothing other than "I don't know." The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong. Nevertheless, this colloquial form is extremely common.



What makes you think it is slang? and why should it be ungrammatical because it is imcomplete?

What do you mean by "The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong"?

21.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 08:30 pm

Quoting cynicmystic:


I am also much confused about how this "ki" found a way to glue itself to SAN+mak (to suppose, imagine, think), and became SANKI (as if). Another linguistic mystery.



This is really nice I never could have guessed that sanki could have its roots in the word sanmak.

It doesnt make it such a linguistic mystery though.

Sanmak has the meaning to think or suppose, 'ki' the meaning of 'that'.

Consider it that...
Think of it as that..

The meaning ofcourse gets twisted within time, but seems a reasonable explanation to me.

22.       si++
3785 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 08:50 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:


This is really nice I never could have guessed that sanki could have its roots in the word sanmak.

It doesnt make it such a linguistic mystery though.

Sanmak has the meaning to think or suppose, 'ki' the meaning of 'that'.

Consider it that...
Think of it as that..

The meaning ofcourse gets twisted within time, but seems a reasonable explanation to me.



Similar:
Gel gör ki ...
De ki ...

Yes,
San ki ...
has become
Sanki ...

No mystery, it's just that the TDK have decided to write it that way.

23.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 09:15 pm

Boyle bir hisse kapilmadim.

The only reason why I wanted to know whether you are a native speaker or a student is not because I lack the answers, as you arrogantly suggested, but so that I could offer a response to your questions in accordance with your proficiency in Turkish.

Now that I know you speak Turkish as your mother tongue, as I was kind of suspecting, I am wodering whether you would be able to prove that "Bende bilmem ki." is actually "grammatical" before I prove to you that it is not grammatical.

You can be assured that I am not beating around the bush for lack of answers. It is just that I am curious why you think that a sentence such as "Bende bilmem ki." is proper.



Quoting si++:

Never mind.
I just wonder what would be your answers to those questions.

Apperantly, you don't have good answers.

What makes you think that my L1 is not Turkish?
(Anadilimin Türkçe olmadığı hissine nereden kapıldın?)

Quoting cynicmystic:

You still haven't clarified whether you speak Turkish as your mother tongue or whether you are a student. When you do that, I will bother to reply to your posts.

Quoting si++:

Quote:

On the other hand, something like "bende bilmem ki" is slang, ungrammatical as it is incomplete, and is, in most cases, used in place of "bilmiyorum or bilmem", meaning nothing other than "I don't know." The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong. Nevertheless, this colloquial form is extremely common.



What makes you think it is slang? and why should it be ungrammatical because it is imcomplete?

What do you mean by "The use of both the -de suffix and the -ki is arbitrary, and in fact, grammatically wrong"?

24.       Dsmith
6 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 11:18 pm

Everyone uses "ki" in this way, educated or not. I don't think it matters whether it's considered grammatically correct or not. That's just a classification, but it's just as important for anyone learning Turkish to know. It's accepted as part of the language. I'm not Turkish, but I've discussed it with my girlfriend, and I hear it from her and her friends all the time. Understanding ki, would definitely help me to understand and speak with them.

25.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 07 Oct 2007 Sun 11:52 pm

Everyone doesn't use ki in the same way, actually, and that is part of the problem.

There are some studies (I apologize for not citing) that suggest that the Istanbulite girls, for example, use their "ki" rather differently and more often than guys. (Think about the way younger girls use "ki" randomly in daily speech simply because it sounds "cute". - Ay simdi bende ne desem bilmem ki askim is nothing other than a trend in slang, which may perhaps become standard over time. In the US, apparently, teenage girls use their "like" differently than teenage boys.)

Other studies show that Turks of Eastern Anatolian origin use their "ki", within their dialects, differently than Turks of western origin. Azeris, who have the same Farsi "ki" in their dialect use it in their own different way, as well. If you read modern Turkish literature of the periods closer to the linguistic revolution, you would see a very different use of 'ki' than the one that is in use today.

The problem with the "ki" form is that it is still settling itself and is still evolving. "Ki" is not a linguistic fossil in Turkish. It is a recent addition, and the rules of its use are still evolving along the lines that the younger generation chooses - namely, its slang use.

Just think about the use of "ki" as below:

- Hangisi? / Which one?
- Seninkisi. / Yours.

Using "ki" in this way is also rather recent, and a bit unusual, but nevertheless, standardized by now.

My only advise regarding "ki" is that it is not that much of a deal. Be able to recognize it in print when it serves the function of conjoining two clauses. If you hear it in speech, its use is often arbitrary and a matter of style.

"Bende bilmiyorum ki." can be expressed equally well as "Valla bilmiyorum, bilmiyorum, bilemeyecegim, bilmem, bilmem ne desem etc." without the use of "ki".

"O kim ki oyle demis?" can also be expressed in other ways by omitting the "ki".

Turkish is just so much easier and pleasent without the "ki"


Quoting Dsmith:

Everyone uses "ki" in this way, educated or not. I don't think it matters whether it's considered grammatically correct or not. That's just a classification, but it's just as important for anyone learning Turkish to know. It's accepted as part of the language. I'm not Turkish, but I've discussed it with my girlfriend, and I hear it from her and her friends all the time. Understanding ki, would definitely help me to understand and speak with them.

26.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 08 Oct 2007 Mon 12:11 am

I agree with you. It is derived like that. But, think about the Latin verb "sentire" (from which we derive sense, sentiment, sensory etc.), which seems to have a strange similarity to "san+mak (as in san+ik)/zan+mak (as in zan+li or zan+et+tim).

San+ik san+ki kacabilecegini san+arak san+ik sandalyesinden firladi. / The accused attempted to escape from his seat thinking as if he could escape.

Look how many "san"s are used.

Or, think about the phrase...
"Sandigimi sanarak"
"San+et+ek+em san+ar+ak"

"Zannedersem" = "Zan+et+er+ise+m"

I suspect that in future Turkish, this elusive "ki" may even become something like the question particle -mi,mu in certain ways.

We say things like "- Gormus mu ki?", for example.

Quoting si++:

Quoting Deli_kizin:


This is really nice I never could have guessed that sanki could have its roots in the word sanmak.

It doesnt make it such a linguistic mystery though.

Sanmak has the meaning to think or suppose, 'ki' the meaning of 'that'.

Consider it that...
Think of it as that..

The meaning ofcourse gets twisted within time, but seems a reasonable explanation to me.



Similar:
Gel gör ki ...
De ki ...

Yes,
San ki ...
has become
Sanki ...

No mystery, it's just that the TDK have decided to write it that way.

27.       si++
3785 posts
 09 Oct 2007 Tue 12:56 pm

Quote:

You can be assured that I am not beating around the bush for lack of answers. It is just that I am curious why you think that a sentence such as "Bende bilmem ki." is proper.



Yes why not?

It's called ellipsis and you can find it in every language.

"She dances better than he does"
"I did it; he didn't"
"I'd love to"
"Don't"

You usually don't say the parts which are clear from the context.

The "sentence final ki" usage is just an example of this elliptical usage.

-- bilmem ki (ne desem) = I don't know (what can I say)

-- gittim ki = I have been there anyway

-- gelmedi ki (gelseydi ben bilirdim ona ne yapacağımı ) = he didn't come (if he did, I knew what I would do to him)

-- ben yapmadım ki (niye ben yapmış gibi konuşuyorsun) = I didn't do it (why do you talk as if I did)

-- Orhan Veli Kanık - SERESERPE
Uzanıp yatıvermiş sereserpe
Entarisi sıyrılmış hafiften
Kolunu kaldırmış kolluğu görünüyor
Bir eliyle de göğsünü tutmuş
İçinde kötülük yok biliyorum
Yok, benim de yok ama
Olmaz ki
Böyle de yatılmaz ki



Another sentence-final particle that occurs frequently in Turkish is de/da ("and, but").

Eg

-- söyleyemedim de ("I couldn't tell [him], you see...")

-- utandım da ("I was ashamed/embarrassed and [that's why I started blushing etc]").

-- ne diyeceğimi şaşırdım da ("I was at a loss for what to say, you see ...")

Sometimes these elliptical statements are completed with "... ondan" ("& that's why").


Note:
"Ben de bilmem ki" is correct written form not "Bende bilmem ki".

28.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 10 Oct 2007 Wed 08:48 am

I think we all know what an ellipsis (...), or the elliptical construction is.

What is interesting here is the logic of illogicality in your reply.

Do you assume that just because a sentence is formed through elliptical formation that sentence immediately becomes grammatical?

Your "gittim ki" example, for instance, is neither grammatical nor would it get you an 'A' from your Turkish grammar teacher regardless of how hard you may argue that it was formed through an elliptical formation. If you travel to southwestern Turkey, you may hear villagers say a corrupted version of the "gittim ki", which becomes something like "gittin ni ki?", asking whether you have gone somewhere. Although "gittin ni ki?" is also an elliptical formation, it is neither grammatical, nor is it spelled correctly.

Another bogus formation that one could hear easily on the streets of Istanbul would be something like "Hangisininki ki?", which could also be categorized as an elliptical formation. Is "hangisininki ki" grammatical as well?

You are comparing oranges to apples. Explaining that "ben de bilmem ki" is formed through elliptical formation sheds no light on whether the sentence itself is grammatical anymore than explaining that the sentence is written in Roman letters. The type of formation is called elliptical simply because it uses the ellipsis as a metaphor, not because elliptical formations automatically guarantee proper & grammatical sentences.

However, you get a major pat on the back for knowing such big words, and attemting to impress us with them. Although I am certainly impressed, I also feel such bombastic arguments should be reserved for impressing the ballooney attendants of a boring dinner party. You medal is on its way. Or, would I be more elliptical if I just said "medalyan yolda ki."

I am sure you would still get my point ...



Cheers

Quoting si++:

Quote:

You can be assured that I am not beating around the bush for lack of answers. It is just that I am curious why you think that a sentence such as "Bende bilmem ki." is proper.



Yes why not?

It's called ellipsis and you can find it in every language.

"She dances better than he does"
"I did it; he didn't"
"I'd love to"
"Don't"

You usually don't say the parts which are clear from the context.

The "sentence final ki" usage is just an example of this elliptical usage.

-- bilmem ki (ne desem) = I don't know (what can I say)

-- gittim ki = I have been there anyway

-- gelmedi ki (gelseydi ben bilirdim ona ne yapacağımı ) = he didn't come (if he did, I knew what I would do to him)

-- ben yapmadım ki (niye ben yapmış gibi konuşuyorsun) = I didn't do it (why do you talk as if I did)

-- Orhan Veli Kanık - SERESERPE
Uzanıp yatıvermiş sereserpe
Entarisi sıyrılmış hafiften
Kolunu kaldırmış kolluğu görünüyor
Bir eliyle de göğsünü tutmuş
İçinde kötülük yok biliyorum
Yok, benim de yok ama
Olmaz ki
Böyle de yatılmaz ki



Another sentence-final particle that occurs frequently in Turkish is de/da ("and, but").

Eg

-- söyleyemedim de ("I couldn't tell [him], you see...")

-- utandım da ("I was ashamed/embarrassed and [that's why I started blushing etc]").

-- ne diyeceğimi şaşırdım da ("I was at a loss for what to say, you see ...")

Sometimes these elliptical statements are completed with "... ondan" ("& that's why").


Note:
"Ben de bilmem ki" is correct written form not "Bende bilmem ki".

29.       si++
3785 posts
 10 Oct 2007 Wed 09:10 am

Cynicmystic,

All the examples I have provided mean different things with the addition of "final ki". Take the "final ki" out and their meanings change.

You can avoid it if you find it ungrammatical and express it in some other way, that's your choice.

30.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 10 Oct 2007 Wed 02:47 pm

benim üniversitedeki hocama gore (turk dilbilgisi dersleri veriyor) 'ki' dogrudur. O da yillarca bogazicida ders vermis. Niye o oyle bir sey diyor ki dogru olmasaydi

neyse ya ben bilmiyorum. aslinda da cok onemli degil. ogrencilerin bunun ogrenmesi de gerek cunku turk dilinin bir parcasidir. dogruysa da yanlissa da, cunku artik herkes kullaniyor.

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