A young emerging nation state or a new USA power base in Europe?

The latter I'm afraid. Or, another Islamic state placed in the Balkans. Personally, I find it a disgrace that most EU countries (mine as well) supports the independence of Kosovo. It has never been a separate country nor has there ever been a Kosovian (?) nation. If Albanians are so subdued under the Serbian government they have a choice - they can go back home.

Can you imagine that in 50 years Polish Immigrants in the UK will vote independence and then proclaim a Polish State within the UK? No? How about Mexicans voting Texas Mexican? That's exactly what will happen in Kosovo. Soon they'll call themselves part of Albania.

Open the Int. Herald Tribune and read:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/18/europe/kosovo.php

It is a USA enterprise. EU will meet the operating expenses...Is that it?

We are very happy for Kosovo's independence,this is blessing step

I don't know how turks can support an independent kosovo and cry against an independent kurdistan. I am against creating new nations for both areas by the way.

double post

Doesn't anybody remember the events in 90s?
Some of them are kidding about the independence of Kosova.Refresh your memories.
Muslim,Turk or Ottoman these words are those they hate.But how about the word slaugter? Do they hate it as much as the words above?

Check the link:

http://www.publicinternationallaw.org/publications/editorials/Milosevic_Crimes.html

Bağımsızlığınız Kutlu Olsun Kosova.Sizinleyiz.....

Do you happen to know a know a good link with an exact number of Serbs and people of other nations that were kiled at Kosovo since 80's, including the last case from two weeks ago? I don't know who doesn't want to hear the word "Turk, Muslim or Ottoman" - Serbs, who are living in peace with Moslem people, or Albanians, who don't want to live even with non-Muslim Albanians and Muslim Turks?

Don't talk about the things you don't understand. And I thought politics was forbidden here.

PS My sincere thanks to femme fatal for presenting the real truth.

Ok We Turks never accept our faults(accaroding to you) but you do it, too.
You can just blame me about my understanding but cant say anything about the link above.
I never express my ideas without evidences. Where are yours?
Please compare the numbers!!!

By the way I agree with you about politic topics here but I didnt start this.

You can choose to believe to foreign newspapers or witnesses and victims of brutality. I personally knew some people who were killed there. And my Turkish relatives (two families) were banned and came to Serbia as refugees.


What history says: Since 6th century till the 15th century Kosovo was inhabited by Serbs only. In next 4 centuries Ottomans had a praxis of bringing islamized Albanians so that they can control the land better. In spite of forced popullating, between 1st and 2nd World Wars, Kosovo Serbs were still a majority of around 50 percent, with 45 percent of Albanians and around 5 percent of other nationalities. After the Second world War, when fascistic Albanian forces were defeated, the number of Albanians even decreased. Since 1952, when the border was opened and Albanian emigrants were allowed to enter Serbia, they increased their number mostly by pure emigration. In 1998 there were near to 1,900000 Albanians on Kosovo. Of that number, 600000 Albanians didn't even have legal documents and they were not legal citizens of the country. So-called "aggression" meant protecting Serbian, Turkish and other civils who were brutally killed, raped and maltreated in many ways; also it was an action against terroristic groups and against ilegal immigrants.

Just a small excerption from http://ajnorge.0catch.com/Verdenrundt/Kosovo.htm :

Alter area of the 16th century Church of St. Nicholas, which was looted, vandalized and seriously damaged by
explosives. This happened after the arrival of Italian KFOR (NATO) troops in Pec, Kosovo, in June 1999. The initials carved into the picture are 'UCK'. That's Albanian for 'KLA', the Kosovo Liberation Army, which NATO and the UN have installed in power.


In 1998 Robert Gelbard, the State Department's Special Envoy to the Balkans, said, speaking for his government:

"The UCK is, without any questions, a terrorist group." (Agence France Presse, 23 Feb. 1998)

UCK stands for Ushtria Clirimtare E Kosoves. In English that's Kosovo Liberation Army, or KLA. Since NATO seized the Serbian province of Kosovo in June 1999, completely opening the border to Albania, the gangster-terrorists of the KLA have been installed as government leaders with the official approval of NATO and of the UN organization in Kosovo.

KLA terrorists have forced around 300,000 people to leave Kosovo - Serbs, 'Gypsies,' Slavic Muslims, ethnic Turks, Croatians, Jews and ethnic Albanians loyal to Yugoslavia. Those Serbs who have remained live under nightmare conditions.

The KLA has systematically attacked Serbian Orthodox churches, monasteries and graveyards. More than 110 Serbian Orthodox churches have been badly vandalized or reduced to rubble. [4]

These buildings were not only treasures of Christianity, masterpieces of an ancient Church; they were also works of art. They belonged to the world. And they were also at the heart of the culture of a people, the much maligned Serbs. Many of these churches had survived 500 years of Muslim rule under the Ottoman Empire. They survived Austrian rule. They survived World War II, when Kosovo was ruled by ethnic Albanian fascists allied with Mussolini and Hitler. They were destroyed under UN/NATO occupation.

Before you tell yourself, "It's not NATO's fault. They can't be everywhere," consider this fact: the terrorist KLA has been desecrating churches since NATO moved into Kosovo in June 1999 - that's four and a half years ago. Many churches were attacked more than once. Yet not one terrorist has been arrested, let alone put on trial. Not a single arrest.

Explosion in Serb churchyard in Urosevac

Tanjug - December 15, 2003
The Ras and Prizren Eparchy of the Serbian Orthodox Church on Monday strongly condemned the Sunday attack on the Church of St. Uros in Urosevac, in the south-eastern part of Kosovo. According to the statement made by the official representative of the Greek KFOR contingent, an unidentified person threw an explosive device, most likely a hand grenade, into the churchyard on Sunday evening, at about 8 p.m.

Og BBB (Bush-Blair-Bondevik) fortsetter å vandalisere kirker i Kosovo også inn i 2004:
Serbian Orthodox church of Sts. Peter and Paul in Gornja Brnjica, near Pristina, desecrated

ERP KIM Info Service Gracanica, January 6, 2004
Pristina parish priest Fr. Miroslav Popadic informed the Diocese of Raska-Prizren and Kosovo-Metohija that during his visit on Monday to the village of Gornja Brnjica, five kilometers north of Pristina, he found that the Church of Sts. Peter and Paul, built in 1975, had been desecrated.

"Unknown assailants probably tried to break down the metal doors which remained stuck so they then cut through three metal bars on the window, broke the window and entered the church," stated Fr. Miroslav. The priest and parishioners were consequently unable to enter the church through the door and immediately called members of the Kosovo Police Service, who checked the church to make sure it was not mined. Finally a Serb member of the KPS entered the church through the window and opened the door for the priest and the gathered villagers so they could inspect the church.

"The spectacle I found was horrible," the Pristina parish priest told the ERP KIM Info Service. "The vandals had scattered the holy chalice, the Holy Scriptures, the candle holders and icons on the floor of the church. After a detailed examination, I discovered that two silver candle holders were missing from the holy altar table, one icon lamp and all the money from sold candles and donations," said Fr. Miroslav.

Forty days ago unknown persons broke into the Church of Sts. Peter and Paul through the bell tower, climbing down the rope of the bell. On that occasion only the money was stolen but the objects within the church were not disturbed.

In the mixed village of Gornja Brnjica there is a total of 47 Serb families with 187 members. After June 1999 eight Serb families left their homes in the Albanian part of the village and for the past more than four years have been unable to return their homes for fear of attacks.

An addition:

This site is becoming seriously nationalistic. I am inviting admins to lock this thread and to delete my membership. Being a member of a multinational family, I don't want to communicate with people who spread wrong and nationalistic ideas.

Thank you.

Duda,
I checked your profile and saw that you are a Serbian.
I dont have any problem with you and you never have a problem with me.
Welcome this site.We dont say that we dont like any other ideas but I want to remind 200.000 killed people,thousands of raped woman .
As being a Serbian, ıts not your crime but this happened . We worried for this.I am also worry for your churches.
I react the attidude of some members who just blame us.
Lets live in peace.....

My point is that Turks have NOTHING with this. No one is blaming Turks, for God's sake! A part of my family is Turkish, my husband is a Croat, do I seem like a nationalist? But facts are facts. Serbs lived on Kosovo during the Ottoman times and after them. It was not Turks who raped our women. It was not Turks who destroyed old Serbian churches. And it was not Turks who killed Serbian people in hundreds and thousands. Turks and Serbs were victims TOGETHER during 90's.

And my reaction really has nothing with you. You can't know about some country only through foreign newspapers and sites. But then don't comment. I am not telling lies about Turkey and not offending Turkey; so you can at least do the same when it's about someone other's country. I want peace too and I am sick of nationalism. But from our sad experience I know that EVERY nationalism starts NOT from religion or nationality, but from FALSE FACTS. 200000 killed people? In Hiroshima maybe, yes.

Btw, if I payed attention at what foreign newspapers write about Turkey, I'd never be here.

I wont go on this argument but I dont know the events just from the newspapar.We have many immigrants in Turkey.I listened many stories. I am not talking about any countries on the world.I am talking about the places we know well......

I understand, because we have over one million refugees here as well. But not only Serbs: there are Turks, Croats, Bosnian Muslims, Jews, Gipsies and Christian Albanians. All of them found shelter in Serbia. You can come any time and see yourself. And make a conclusion.

I think now you understand why I reacted so harshly. Serbia is a multinational and peaceful country, and no one here wants to be called an agressor.

An excerpt from some older newspapers:

Copyright 1986 The New York Times Company
The New York Times

April 28, 1986, Monday, Late City Final Edition

SECTION: Section A; Page 13, Column 1; Foreign Desk

LENGTH: 780 words

HEADLINE: IN ONE YUGOSLAV PROVINCE, SERBS FEAR THE ETHNIC ALBANIANS

BYLINE: By HENRY KAMM, Special to the New York Times

DATELINE: PRISTINA, Yugoslavia

BODY:
The ethnic Albanian majority in the autonomous province of Kosovo is feared by the minority population of Serbs and Montenegrins, who believe the Albanians are seeking to drive them out of the province.
A 1981 fire that gutted the medieval nunnery of the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate in Pec, a center of Serbian national feeling, has been officially ascribed to bad construction.

An aged nun at the Patriarchate said she and her sisters were convinced that the fire had been set to chase them from Kosovo. But she said the nuns would never leave, and three Serbian or Montenegrin visitors agreed with her.

The provincial leadership, dominated by ethnic Albanians, has said it believes that a Serb grossly mutilated last May by a broken bottle inflicted his injuries himself while performing an auto-erotic act. The maiming of Djordje Martinovic, a 56-year-old farmer and father of three, has become the most widely discussed Yugoslav criminal case in years, debated in Parliament and covered in full detail by television and the press.

Duda,
I really like your ideas towards racism.
But will you accept that there is/was very strong racist nationalisms in Serbia which resulted in worst massacres since WWII in Europe?
Because we all watched and read what happened in bosnia, sarajevo.
We all know the names Radovan Karadzic, Ratko mladic and Arkan etc.
Dont you think they were part of the problem what happened there?

Mehmed Jusufspahić, Belgrade mufti:

The mufti od Serbia, Muhamed Jusufspahić, today criminated, in the name of Islamic Community of Serbia [IZS], any act of political violence that can deepen the gap and dissacordance between nations of the words, where belongs one-sided declaration of independence of Kosovo and Metohija.

On the press conference in Bayrakli Cami in Belgrade, which is secured by police, Jusufspahić, speaking in the name of Moslems "whose motherland is Serbia", pointed out that this act of one-sided declaration will put many Moslem countries "into temptation".

Pointing out that Moslems in Serbia want to live in peace with their Orthodox and any other Christian neighbours, Jusufspahić appealed at all the Moslems from the regia to abstain of any comment.


Hamdija Jusufspahić, the former Belgrade mufti:

The Mufti of the Islamic Community of Serbia, Hamdija effendi Jusufspahic, has assessed that the position of Muslims in Serbia has 'stepped up' while the position of non-Albanians in Kosovo, including Muslims, is still bad. 'The nationalistic movement in Kosovo and Albania is like any other nationalistic movement and recognizes only itself. Proof for this are Romanis, Ashkalis, Turks, Boshniaks and Goranis who have been displaced from Kosovo,' said Jusufspahic. He added that, from the beginning of the war in Kosovo, he hasn't gone there, although 'he has friends and very decent people down there.' 'But it doesn't matter to blind nationalists who is who what color, if they are not the same nation. Since Islam, much has been forgotten in Kosovo during the communist rule. Their (Albanian) wish is to be linked with Albania from those times,' said Jusufspahic.

OMG me and aenigma posted the same thing at the same time

I lived in titograd during the early 90's. I also saw what happened by all parties involved. Serbia has been punished enough for their responsibility. Losing Kosovo is going too far. Knowing the partisan serbs and especially the çetnik serbs the way I do, this will never be tolerated long term. The nations that recognize this illegal declaration of independence are only inviting more ethnic violence to the region. Every country of the world has areas of ethnic majority. This is no reason to rewrite borders whenever a minorirt group demands their own country.
Examples of course include areas of UK and USA as well.

Thanks alameda, but I do know the history of the USA - it was one of the compulsory courses at my uni I mentioned Texas for exactly that reason. Kosovar Albanians claim that Kosovo used to be their land as in about 30BC Thraco-Illyrian tribes inhabited it. And they claim these tribes to be their ancestors and this is the basis for them to want the land back. Whereas it is specular whether Albanians stem from those tribes, it it perfectly clear who Texas belonged to (even going as far back as to the native tribes). Texas's example was meant to show that even if it's so called 'historical truth' it is no basis for claiming land.