Quoting thehandsom:

.............. These European-looking Turks are also quite militarist and nationalist according to Western standards.

.......................
It actually means indoctrination. In others words, the education system is not designed to raise individuals who believe in democracy, freedom, pluralism or critical thinking. It is rather designed to inculcate all students with the “state ideology.”
......................
Just spend some time in a Turkish primary or high school, and you will see what I mean. Students start and end every week by swearing an oath of allegiance to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, around whom our state ideology has built a cult of personality. “O mighty Atatürk who has given us this day,” all students recite, “I swear that I will walk relentlessly on your path.” The oath ends with a collectivist promise of sacrifice: “Let my existence be a gift to Turkish existence!”

The education system, which constantly praises the “Turkish existence,” curiously says nothing about the existence of other ethnic identities in Turkey. The society is portrayed as a homogenous entity. The Kurds and other groups are never mentioned, and when you finish your education, you simply know nothing about them.
...............................

Actually the whole education system gives you the impression that everybody except the Kemalists are traitors.

............concepts such as democracy or individual freedom simply do not exist. You can’t blame Atatürk for that, because in his time, other ideas such as “statism” were popular and he naturally embraced them. Yet, times have changed, whereas the system stays untouched.

........... we all became free with the founding of the independent Turkish Republic in 1923. Whether that republic has granted us the citizens freedom was a question that was remarkably ignored. What really mattered was the freedom of our state from foreign powers. Our own freedom was not a value worth mentioning.

.................
That's why quite many Turks, who are otherwise smart and reasonable people, will go irrational when you start to question the national myths of nationalism or ultra-secularism.

Of course, there are also many people who have gone outside the box. There are, first of all, the self-declared liberals who have realized that the system is authoritarian and it needs to be liberalized. They are influential, but very tiny. Moreover, other elites, the Kemalist ones, see them as either naïve or treacherous.

............... Therefore, the only way out for Turkey remains what it has been since the times of Turgut Özal and the first period of the AKP: Liberal democracy promoted by the EU, articulated by the liberals, and supported by the conservatives. Even if the AKP is closed, this momentum will go on under another party. And the Kurds will be much better off if they jump onto this train instead of playing Che Guevara in the mountains of the southeast.

As the potential of the illiberal elite to accept liberal democracy, though, I am not very optimistic. As evidenced by their unbelievably reactionary stance, their minds are just too “educated” to breach.

Mustafa AKYOL

Quoting armegon:

Hmmm, nice reading from American product evangelist liberal islamist...
Way to go Mustafa Whitepath

Quoting thehandsom:

But he is right on spot..Is he not?

Quoting SuiGeneris:

I am not offended by this title

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting incişka:

good article I got a student who shouted out "Happy is the one who says I am Turk" every morning, but when in class came close to me and said "teacher, do u know indeed I'm Kurd, but I can speak only a few words". She said it in a way as if being a Kurd was something disgraceful. And I told her she is lucky to have the opportunity to learn Kurdish as well as Turkish. I suggested that she learned Kurdish from her parents. Well.. I dont know... :-S why cant everyone be just themselves? studnoe chustno!!

Quoting incişka:

good article I got a student who shouted out "Happy is the one who says I am Turk" every morning, but when in class came close to me and said "teacher, do u know indeed I'm Kurd, but I can speak only a few words". She said it in a way as if being a Kurd was something disgraceful. And I told her she is lucky to have the opportunity to learn Kurdish as well as Turkish. I suggested that she learned Kurdish from her parents. Well.. I dont know... :-S why cant everyone be just themselves? studnoe chustno!!

Quoting armegon:

Then most of the teachers and professors are also close-minded but Mustafa Whitepath, thehandsom and incişka are open-minded

Quoting armegon:

Then most of the teachers and professors are also close-minded but Mustafa Whitepath, thehandsom and incişka are open-minded

Quoting armegon:

Difficult question, i thought they are educated and educating. Somehow you met by chance with open-minded ones...

Quoting MrX67:

such a shame to make ugly policies based on unvolitional (ethnics,beliefs,nationalities etc..)criterions.And i think our great country's one of main problem that,we still trying to creat new policies for make stronger our democracy depend on ethnics or beliefs,while a real democracy's road pass on from a strong and just economical system.Only science,fabrics,production,more employ,productivity,justly shariing can make stronger our democracy by to be respectfull to all unvolitional div ersities under one flag and in the same borders...But pity false intellectuals using inncoent people's unvolitional diversities just for keep their chairs and just for their selfish political aims,we need more food,more friendship,more understanding,better education instead of to be be fish on fishooks of foxy politicans or false intellectuals.And i think everyone have to be aware of that ''Turkishness''only an upper culture and always possible to live in peace and side by side under of this upper culture by keeping our ethnical and belief diversities...

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote: Quoting Elisabeth: Quoting Lapinkulta: Mustafa AKYOL Such great thoughts and observations... I have had this thought on my mind for a long time! So many educated Turks that I know are still VERY nationalistic, uncritical, and have very homogenous ideas about everything related to Turkey! No critical thought, no variations of the story... They all think the same!!!! It is very true that if the "educated" Turks are so brainwashed then there is no hope for a liberal democracy in Turkey. good observations...and he described me with his article Im happy to be like that..it is better than living under pressure of foreigneru want ppl that Turkish should serve uu cant tolerate educated Turks U cant tolerate uneducated turks as wellu want turkish man who got married with a foreign girl and live in her country u understood what I meant sekerim

Quoting Daydreamer:

Interesting...actually all my Turkish friends are well-educated but none of them is a nationalist. Patriotic - of course, but never narrow-minded. And nothing like our whiny BSB

Quoting Lapinkulta:

Quoting lady in red:

Quoting Lapinkulta:

person who posted this thread and its supporters are so narrow minded, anti turk, racist, anti islamist, person who has at middle age mentality...

Quoting Lapinkulta:

Quoting lady in red:

Quoting Lapinkulta: Quoting lady in red: Quoting Lapinkulta: Quoting Daydreamer: Interesting...actually all my Turkish friends are well-educated but none of them is a nationalist. Patriotic - of course, but never narrow-minded. And nothing like our whiny BSB person who posted this thread and its supporters are so narrow minded, anti turk, racist, anti islamist, person who has at middle age mentality... And what would you say your mental age is şekerim? more than yours sekerim

Quoting Lapinkulta:

Quoting lady in red: Quoting Lapinkulta: Quoting lady in red: Quoting Lapinkulta: Quoting Daydreamer: Interesting...actually all my Turkish friends are well-educated but none of them is a nationalist. Patriotic - of course, but never narrow-minded. And nothing like our whiny BSB person who posted this thread and its supporters are so narrow minded, anti turk, racist, anti islamist, person who has at middle age mentality... And what would you say your mental age is şekerim? more than yours sekerim So - as I have a middle-age mentality (as a supporter of the person who posted this thread), that means you have an old-age mentality? Wow! That explains everything - you are SENILE!! But - conversely - what a childish 'my dad's bigger than your dad' type response to my last post.

Quoting thehandsom:

How RIGHT he is!!

.............. These European-looking Turks are also quite militarist and nationalist according to Western standards.

.......................
It actually means indoctrination. In others words, the education system is not designed to raise individuals who believe in democracy, freedom, pluralism or critical thinking. It is rather designed to inculcate all students with the “state ideology.”
......................
Just spend some time in a Turkish primary or high school, and you will see what I mean. Students start and end every week by swearing an oath of allegiance to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, around whom our state ideology has built a cult of personality. “O mighty Atatürk who has given us this day,” all students recite, “I swear that I will walk relentlessly on your path.” The oath ends with a collectivist promise of sacrifice: “Let my existence be a gift to Turkish existence!”

The education system, which constantly praises the “Turkish existence,” curiously says nothing about the existence of other ethnic identities in Turkey. The society is portrayed as a homogenous entity. The Kurds and other groups are never mentioned, and when you finish your education, you simply know nothing about them.
...............................

Actually the whole education system gives you the impression that everybody except the Kemalists are traitors.

............concepts such as democracy or individual freedom simply do not exist. You can’t blame Atatürk for that, because in his time, other ideas such as “statism” were popular and he naturally embraced them. Yet, times have changed, whereas the system stays untouched.

........... we all became free with the founding of the independent Turkish Republic in 1923. Whether that republic has granted us the citizens freedom was a question that was remarkably ignored. What really mattered was the freedom of our state from foreign powers. Our own freedom was not a value worth mentioning.

.................
That's why quite many Turks, who are otherwise smart and reasonable people, will go irrational when you start to question the national myths of nationalism or ultra-secularism.

Of course, there are also many people who have gone outside the box. There are, first of all, the self-declared liberals who have realized that the system is authoritarian and it needs to be liberalized. They are influential, but very tiny. Moreover, other elites, the Kemalist ones, see them as either naïve or treacherous.

............... Therefore, the only way out for Turkey remains what it has been since the times of Turgut Özal and the first period of the AKP: Liberal democracy promoted by the EU, articulated by the liberals, and supported by the conservatives. Even if the AKP is closed, this momentum will go on under another party. And the Kurds will be much better off if they jump onto this train instead of playing Che Guevara in the mountains of the southeast.

As the potential of the illiberal elite to accept liberal democracy, though, I am not very optimistic. As evidenced by their unbelievably reactionary stance, their minds are just too “educated” to breach.

Mustafa AKYOL


http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=104720

Quoting cynicmystic:

Copy-pasting a rather "biased" article to start a "charged" topic without any of your own input or thoughts clearly shows that unless someone else puts it into writing, you do not seem to be able to do it for yourself. As a result, instead of responding to your own thoughts, the readers of your pathetic thread are forced to respond to an "article". Well, we might as well send a carbon copy of our replies to the publishing newspaper as well, wouldn't you say?

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting cynicmystic:

On the other hand, I am glad I touched a nerve, as I intended to do so. If you read my reply, I think it is very clear what I am reacting to.

Regarding the "hate" factor, I don't care enough to hate...

Quoting armegon:

Then most of the teachers and professors are also close-minded but Mustafa Whitepath, thehandsom and incişka are open-minded

Quoting cynicmystic:

Haven't you noticed how rather "charged" topics are regularly posted by the same characters.

I agree with you. "thehandsom & incishka" are both fine examples of partiality, while possesing a keen sense of what constitutes being "open-minded". Mustafa Akyol, on the other hand, is a becaon of enlightment.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting cynicmystic:

Brilliant.

Did you figure that out all by yourself?

You don't really think that I am going to get into a bogus back & forth post & reply with you, do you. I already spent over an hour and posted exactly what I think about the article, and the fellow who posted it. It is written in plain English.

The nerve I have touched is quite obvius to me. I feel for your pain, though, if it is not clear to you.

Quoting cynicmystic:

You don't really think that I am going to get into a bogus back & forth post & reply with you, do you. I already spent over an hour and posted exactly what I think about the article, and the fellow who posted it. It is written in plain English.

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting cynicmystic:

No hurries...

Take your time to think about it.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting cynicmystic:

No hurries...

Take your time to think about it.

Quoting thehandsom: Quoting cynicmystic: You don't really think that I am going to get into a bogus back & forth post & reply with you, do you. I already spent over an hour and posted exactly what I think about the article, and the fellow who posted it. It is written in plain English. Well.. It seems like there is a personal attack here!! I am obliged to reply.. It is a promise!!!

Quoting thehandsom:

There is not much to think about it really..
As soon as I am done with my domestics, I will start replying..

Quoting cynicmystic: No hurries... Take your time to think about it. Quoting thehandsom: Quoting cynicmystic: You don't really think that I am going to get into a bogus back & forth post & reply with you, do you. I already spent over an hour and posted exactly what I think about the article, and the fellow who posted it. It is written in plain English. Well.. It seems like there is a personal attack here!! I am obliged to reply.. It is a promise!!!

Quoting cynicmystic:

I am neither sure from which country the individual who posted this article is nor do I particularly care about it. Unlike you, however, I will show the courtesy of sharing with others my background, which is Turkish. Had you done the same, we would know where you are from, as well.

Copy-pasting a rather 'biased' article to start a 'charged' topic without any of your own input or thoughts clearly shows that unless someone else puts it into writing, you do not seem to be able to do it for yourself. As a result, instead of responding to your own thoughts, the readers of your pathetic thread are forced to respond to an 'article'. Well, we might as well send a carbon copy of our replies to the publishing newspaper as well, wouldn't you say?

Since my reply is actually to an article, I hope you won't take what I say personally, and be offended.

Let's start with an analysis of the bombastic lingo in this article...

'.............. These European-looking Turks are also quite militarist and nationalist according to Western standards.'

What the hell are we supposed to understand from an idiotic statement like this? The look that has been falsely labelled as 'European' is actually 'Caucasian', which is surely not in the monopoly of Europeans exclusively. The Caucasian look belongs to Eurasia, and the Caucauses, the origin of the term itself, is ironically closer to Turkey than to any Western Europen country. If the European look is referring to the un-Islamic & fashionable outfits in Turkey, then, it must be said that there are more mullahs in London & Paris these days than there are in Turkey.

Another important issue is the criteria for the so-called 'western standards' in regards to being 'militaristic nationalists'. Believe me that there are no such standards, and any bombastic author that makes such references in his writing is surely talking out of his ass. On a different tune, Europeans aren't impressing anyone in the world with their 'European standards' anymore anyways. Those days have been over for quite a while.

Regarding the issue of indoctrination at Turkish schools, I am surprised by how one-sided his view is. Every country in the world that has an education system & a national identity indoctrinates their young ones. Yes, the level and intensity of indoctrination varies from country to country, but nevertheless, every country, even the 'civilized' Western countries, indoctrinate their children in one form or the other. If the writer of the article, and the other clowns on this forum, who seem to support his views, are claiming that the situation in Turkey is exceptional, and much worse, then I would have to disagree with that.

As someone who had to go through the ritual of 'swearing alliance & oath' in the mornings, on the contrary to the writer's claims, I didn't turn out to be a 'militaristic Kemalist' bent on supressing other minorities and imposing Kemalist values. In fact, I dislike Kemalists, Nationalists, Patriots, Separatists, Pan-Turkists etc as much as I hate bible-thumping Evangelists, Zionists, Mullahs, and other war-mongering parasites.

For me, the ritual was actually of significant importance, not because it instilled in me a solid sense of 'Turkishness & Kemalist values', but simply because it was the only opportunity during the week where all the students gathered in the courtyard. Hormones raging at that age, it was more of a social event where the guys would check out the girls stroll down the stairs, glimpsing at their legs, as each class congregated for the ceremony. As shameless as this may sound, it was a great opportunity to check out the girls that you had a crush on, while winking at the girls, who had a crush on you. Aside from checking out the legs, other very important social activities, such as the exchange of weekend gossip, plans for a soccer game with the rival class during lunch break etc would be discussed.

I never felt like being indoctrinated because, like many of my friends, I never took it seriously, or literally. In fact, had they just bothered to ask, I would have surely preferred to stay in the courtyard all day reciting the oath of alliance than go to classroom. Children in the USA, UK, Germany etc go through severe forms of indoctrination, not only at school, but outside as well through TV and religious activities. Not every corner of North America is as liberal & democratic as New York or LA. I find Americans to be extremely indoctrinated, for example. More so than Turks in fact. The same could be said for the English as well. Writing an article about how children are being brainwashed because of the morning oath is nothing but a cheap shot without much aim.

Let's quote another bombastic statement:

'The education system, which constantly praises the “Turkish existence,” curiously says nothing about the existence of other ethnic identities in Turkey.'

The education system doesn't have to say jack about the existence of other ethnicities simply because it is obvious and right there in front of you each time you go for a walk or watch TV. The author would be surprised how many Turks are actually very well aware of the mixed heritage of their homeland and its people in comparison to some of their European & North American counterparts. We all notice the ethnic diversity as well as the non-ethnic diversity.

When I was a little kid, my family lived in the old Armenian quarters of Istanbul, where there was still a significant number of Armenians, who had stayed after WWI. Our right door neighbour was Armenian, and regularly, I would spend evenings at their home playing with their children, if my parents were working late. In the same way, my parents would do the same when they were out. Not only were we aware of each other's existence, but we interacted with each other as well. From a really young age, I also noticed that a lot of construction workers in Istanbul spoke a language that I couldn't understand. It didn't take long to figure out that it was Kurdish. Later on, I also noticed that a lot of the these workers were hired by wealthier Kurdish contractors, who had prospered in Western Turkey, and discriminated and looked down on these workers, as much as their Turkish upper-class Istanbulite friends. Again, later on, I also learned that not all Kurdish dialects spoken in Turkey are mutually intelligable. Zaza, for example, a Kurdish group in Turkey, cannot understand the Kurdish dialect of Kurmanchi, which is spoken by a much larger group of Kurds that live in Turkey, Iran & Iraq. On a trip to the Black Sea region, I couldn't help giggling at the way the locals talked. How there were non-Turkish dialects of Georgian origin still spoken in pockets of remote villages by the elders, or how the Laz originally came from Georgia and mixed with Pontic Greeks of Trebizond were right there in front of you. When we travelled to the Aegean region, the Greco/Anatolian ethnic elements were also visible. The point I am trying to make is that dramatic examples, such as incishka's about how a Kurdish student whispered to her/his ear, or the ones expressed in the article are not only inaccurate observations, but are also generalizations.

Yes, there is discrimination & suppression in Turkey in one form or the other just like everywhere else in the world. However, this discrimination is not exactly or predominantly ethnic. It is a lot more complicated than that. For example, wealthier Turks, usually of Istanbul, discriminate against the so-called 'kro' Turks of the eastern provinces. They make fun of the way they talk, call them 'peasents', and the very word 'kro', which is a derivateive of the name of the Kurdish dialect, Kurmanchi, applies equally to anyone, whether Turkish or Kurdish, that doesn't meet superficial Istanbulite standards.

Among the so-called 'peasents of the east', there is uniform resentment against the spoiled, and snobby city-dwellers & the plasticity of their culture. The pan-Turkists, who suffer from a minor case of delusion, want a unified Turkic empire across central Asia. They usually beat up innocent people, who fail to make the 'Ulkucu' wolf sign with their hands during their traffic blockdes. The religious fundamentalist pundits come in all shapes and ethnicities ready to massacre all others, too, once given the opportunity. The lower-middle class is always ready to be duped by propaganda and flock out to the streets to protest this or that. Ethnicity hardly ever plays a role in most cases.

The wealthier western Kurds discrminate against other eastern Kurds that are part of the ashiret clan system. The ashiret leaders literally exert authority over thousands of their clan members through their own interpretation of their 'tore'. It is literally brutal. The political bears of Ankara prize themselves the most in bogus forms of Kemalism, thinking that they are the only ones in the whole country preoccupied with maintaining the unity of our homeland against all outside powers bent on demolishing us, the Republic of Turkey!!!

For many of these multi-ethnical & political posers, if they don't see a framed picture of Ataturk in your office, you are immediately labelled as a parasite to the Kemalist cause.

To keep this brief, the point is rather simple. The truth is that the people, who live in Turkey, regardless of their ethnic origins, are very gullible, and yet not so naive. It is easy to play with their emotions, and manipulate their thoughts, but they are absolutely not products of an educational system that has 'brainwashed' them. This observation in the article is wrong.

People who live in Turkey are very well aware of the progress Turkey has made as well as its shortcomings. Nobody of any ethnic background is blind or dumb. On the contrary to the article, we aren't all brainwashed, at least not significantly more than our counterparts in other countries.

Thanks to bombastic news in the media, there is always a way to find a suitable victim to instigate a national paranoia in Turkey - particularly against Greece & Armenia, if not the PKK. You can always pump up the patriotic bravada with bogus media stories about a Greek invasion of a worthless set of islands, or the Armenian diaspora trying to discredit Turks abroad. Barzani was the latest one. It is unbelievable how easy it is to turn masses of normally ordinary people into flag-burning fanatics.

It is also ironic that the very same people not only burn the flags of the perceived-threat countries, but also burn the flags of foreign soccer teams after losing at the European Cup (always due to the ref). Even domestic teams may suffer being burned by the local fanatics. There is always a good reason to protest in Turkey, and ethnic difference is not at the top of the list.

I actually see a bigger problem in Turkish education system than the oath of alliance. Over the years, a significant number of rather annoying members of the English-speaking world have relocated to Turkey as ESL teachers at private schools. These backpacker-turned-ESL-instructors, who are often not qualified to teach ESL in their own contries, are very much welcomed by Turkish people, and are often admired a lot more than they actually deserve. Such foreigners often find out that they are paid quite well in Turkey, and can actually live a lot better in Istanbul (or Izmir & Ankara) than they ever could in their own countries with their intellectual capacities. It is often a matter of months before they find a Turkish girlfriend or boyfriend, get married and settle down. Once this happens, these backpacker-philosophers develop ideas about the problems of Turkey. They share their annoying & often ignorant views generously at dinner parties that they have been invited to by the parents of their private students, who pay them quite a bit of money to tutor their children. So, the side benefits are obvious. And, they gibber & gibber.

They tell us how there are violations of human rights, police brutality, the suppression of Kurds, domestic violence against women, corruption, Turkish mullahs, what Turkey needs to do to join the EU etc etc etc etc. They have a freaking idea about everything, and believe me when I tell you that they annoy the hell out of almost every other 'educated' Turk that I know. To these ignorant clowns, the only reason why we, the 'more educated Turks' may appear as 'close-minded militaristic patriots' is perhaps because that is the image we portray on purpose. Along the same lines, when similar individuals post topics on message boards to psyche people up, we tend to write lengthy replies.

I think your thread is insincere my friend.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Are you as handsom as your nick suggests?

Quoting alameda:

Quoting cynicmystic:

Cheers for the warm welcome.

I may come off as a bit too direct or aggressive, but I often speak my mind.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting cynicmystic:

I am neither sure from which country the individual who posted this article is nor do I particularly care about it. Unlike you, however, I will show the courtesy of sharing with others my background, which is Turkish. Had you done the same, we would know where you are from, as well.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Copy-pasting a rather "biased" article to start a "charged" topic without any of your own input or thoughts clearly shows that unless someone else puts it into writing, you do not seem to be able to do it for yourself. As a result, instead of responding to your own thoughts, the readers of your pathetic thread are forced to respond to an "article". Well, we might as well send a carbon copy of our replies to the publishing newspaper as well, wouldn't you say?

Quoting cynicmystic:

Let's start with an analysis of the bombastic lingo in this article...

".............. These European-looking Turks are also quite militarist and nationalist according to Western standards."

What the hell are we supposed to understand from an idiotic statement like this? ...

Quoting cynicmystic:

Another important issue is the criteria for the so-called "western standards" in regards to being "militaristic nationalists". Believe me that there are no such standards, and any bombastic author that makes such references in his writing is surely talking out of his ass. On a different tune, Europeans aren't impressing anyone in the world with their "European standards" anymore anyways. Those days have been over for quite a while.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Regarding the issue of indoctrination at Turkish schools, I am surprised by how one-sided his view is. Every country in the world that has an education system & a national identity indoctrinates their young ones. Yes, the level and intensity of indoctrination varies from country to country, but nevertheless, every country, even the "civilized" Western countries, indoctrinate their children in one form or the other. If the writer of the article, and the other clowns on this forum, who seem to support his views, are claiming that the situation in Turkey is exceptional, and much worse, then I would have to disagree with that.

Quoting cynicmystic:

As someone who had to go through the ritual of "swearing alliance & oath" in the mornings, on the contrary to the writer's claims, I didn't turn out to be a "militaristic Kemalist" bent on suppressing other minorities and imposing Kemalist values. ....
Writing an article about how children are being brainwashed because of the morning oath is nothing but a cheap shot without much aim.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Let's quote another bombastic statement:
.....ones expressed in the article are not only inaccurate observations, but are also generalizations.

Quoting cynicmystic:

...
Yes, there is discrimination & suppression in Turkey in one form or the other just like everywhere else in the world. However, this discrimination is not exactly or predominantly ethnic. It is a lot more complicated than that.
..

Quoting cynicmystic:

........
I think your thread is insincere my friend.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Because I am under the impression that handsom starts these rather "charged" topics with a bit of an "agenda", and in my opinion, deserves a rather straight-forward in-your-face response, just like the one I took the time to make.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Are you as handsom as your nick suggests?

Quoting cynicmystic:

I promise to tone down the attitude in my posts.

Quoting cynicmystic:

I really don't agree with you. Simple as that.

But, that is what makes these forums so much fun.

I think we will have a great time debating in the future.

Quoting cynicmystic:

oh yeah? what are those European standards?

Quoting cynicmystic:

Because I am under the impression that handsom starts these rather "charged" topics with a bit of an "agenda",

Quoting cynicmystic:

I think your thread is insincere my friend.

Quoting armegon:

Quoting catwoman:

This fear of someone having an agenda is pretty funny actually . What can thehandsom do with his 'agenda'? Bring down the Turkish republic? Start a terrorist organization?

Quoting armegon:

His agenda seems no different than the ones who take millions of euros from EU.

Quoting armegon:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting Daydreamer:

Guys, you're free to disagree with him and anyone you wish in the forum, but accusing people of having secret agendas is simply ridiculous.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting catwoman: Quoting Daydreamer: Guys, you're free to disagree with him and anyone you wish in the forum, but accusing people of having secret agendas is simply ridiculous. ... and paranoid that handsom and his extraterrestial army will wipe Turkey off the map, establish Handsomye instead and elevate himself to the ranks of Ataturk/god, the father of all Handsoms. You will have to sing hymns every morning to praise his greateness and your foremost duty will be to defend Handsomye from every foreigner, either with words or your own blood.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting thehandsom: Quoting catwoman: Quoting Daydreamer: Guys, you're free to disagree with him and anyone you wish in the forum, but accusing people of having secret agendas is simply ridiculous. ... and paranoid that handsom and his extraterrestial army will wipe Turkey off the map, establish Handsomye instead and elevate himself to the ranks of Ataturk/god, the father of all Handsoms. You will have to sing hymns every morning to praise his greateness and your foremost duty will be to defend Handsomye from every foreigner, either with words or your own blood. Once I am in that position, do you think DD will answer all my pms and I will get an msn invitation from her?

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting armegon: Quoting cynicmystic: Because I am under the impression that handsom starts these rather "charged" topics with a bit of an "agenda", Quoting cynicmystic: I think your thread is insincere my friend. Thats what i share wholeheartedly .

Quoting cynicmystic:

Regarding your fine example of comparing Turkey to Russia, where dissidents disappear over night, I regret to say that I don't agree with that statement either. Anyone who has ever been to Russia & Turkey knows very well that Turkey has never been as oppressive as the Cold War Era Russia.

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting catwoman:

Explain that more please. I'm really curious what you think his 'agenda', other then just saying what he thinks, is.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Guys, you're free to disagree with him and anyone you wish in the forum, but accusing people of having secret agendas is simply ridiculous and weakens the message of your posts.

Quoting Daydreamer:

If Handsom's agenda is to corrupt Turkey's image then yours must be showing how wonderful, non-nationalistic, non-brainwashed, allowing everyone express their opinions in public your country is.

Quoting Daydreamer:

What I gather from discussions like yours is that the fear and hatred towards 'the others' (those who dare to express their thoughts freely) is a proof of your nationalism. You just have to have enemies...How sad...

Quoting thehandsom:

The concept of 'foreign powers, dark forces, foreign elements, pressing of a button, secret agenda, seeds of discord etc' were invented long time ago in 70s and 80s.

*They are the ones trying to divide Turkey
*They are the ones made us lost the WWI when Germany lost
*They are the ones made Turks and Kurds enemy of each other while we were living peacefully.
*They caused the entire ermenian thing
*They are the ones who are trying to enter the unis with their turbans
*They are trying to convert our people to cristianity with those missionaries.
*They placed the entire left/right problem into Turkey years ago
*They are the people having a button somewhere in EU and USA and pressing on when Turkey does well.
*They have budgets and pay the enemy of Turks in other countries.
*They killed Ugur Mumcu, Hrant Dink etc
*They are behind the energy problem of Turkey and the death of labours in Tuzla Dockyard-It is a recent invention btw-

Quoting thehandsom:

I am still expecting, somebody will come up with the idea that 'farting problem after eating too much kuru fasulye' is the result of 'dark forces' as well.

Quoting thehandsom:

You seem to forget what we have done to Kurds/Armenians/Greeks and what we are still doing to the kurds which seems to the only crowded ethnic group.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Sure that many has disappeared.

What I would like to ask you is this.

In other places, such as North America, Western Europe and China, haven't people been dissappearing as well. Authoritarianism is everywhere, and criticisizing Turkey as if it is the only country in the worlds suffering from this is pointless.

How do you feel about the UK deriving 1/3 of its income from international arm sales, which eventually leads to war & oppression? Do I need to mention Guantanamo Bay? The Brazilian shot to death in the London subway, the Polish guy tasered to death by the Canadian airport police, or the numerous cases of police brutality from Europe or north America. There people going missing all over the world. Whenever you challenge or pose a risk to the established status-quo, you are eliminated.

Talking about these problems as if they are political issues that can be resolved with the right kind of legislation is not only annoying, but is naive.

If you live in a glass house, don't cast stones at your neighbour! The social issues you highlight are happening all over the world. So, don't single out Turkey as an example. All of our governments are equally involved in everything at the upper levels.

Perhaps it is about time to wake up...

Quoting armegon:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting armegon:

Ask Mr.thehandsom , im sure he knows what im putting forward moderator . Im too lazy to find some articles to post here at the moment.

Quote:

This is one of the current trends which foreign admirer liberals began to voice in media during the past several years. They are taking lessons for this in Europe . A propaganda method to develop insensible, unconcerned people who are kept sleep with TV series or any kind of pursuit.

Quoting cynicmystic:

You ought to be kidding...

First, you post replies to people (that's me in this case) without even bothering to read what they have written (what I had written in this case.) Then, having realized how ridicuolous you must have sounded with your first post, you confess to not having read my post in the first place, go back to read it, and with your half-understanding, you still attempt to shove words down people's throats. Do you really expect people to take you seriously when you post responses without knowing what you are responding to, since you haven't bothered to read?

On the contrary to your comprehension, what my post shows is not dissidence against anyone who criticizes Turkey. I am under the impresion that you still haven't bothered to read the post.

Regarding your fine example of comparing Turkey to Russia, where dissidents disappear over night, I regret to say that I don't agree with that statement either. Anyone who has ever been to Russia & Turkey knows very well that Turkey has never been as oppressive as the Cold War Era Russia.

I also love the way you make all these phoney assumptions about how we have been taught to "hate" each other.

You sound like you have been taught to hate a lot more than we do.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Talk about what ever you like...

It is just that those things that you relate to Turkey are not unique to Turkey. The examples that you suggest as role models are suffering from the exact same problems.

That's what i meant by it is perhaps time to wake up...

The world has gone to "shits" my friend. There is no European model, or the American Dream in a world smeared with hypocrasy. Your examples serve no social purpose. You are just renaming a global epidemic.

Quoting libralady:

I am a little upset here. I feel left out. Is it that I am insignificant in this one sided battle between Cynic wotsit and Catwoman over the virtues of Thehandsom and his new country? How can I be noticed in between the glorisouly LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG posts (Yawn!!)

All I ask is, who is Mustafa Akyol ................ please? And no, I refuse to google!

Quoting armegon:

Yeah i am free to disagree but i am not accusing anyone, i just voiced what i sense and it has nothing to do weakening the message of my posts.

Quoting armegon:

, simple thinking, im not trying to show anything to anyone, i just try to response the posts here. Have u ever seen me starting a thread like u mentioned in this biased forum?

Quoting armegon:

And what i gather from the discussions like yours is that the fear and hatred towards the people who love their country even the girls here who has Turkish/Kurdish lovers. I have problems with the ones who think instead of Turks as they try to mention that they know everything better, arrogantly and i have problems with the domestics who are flatterers and who are ungratefuls.

Quoting armegon:

This is one of the current trends which foreign admirer liberals began to voice in media during the past several years. They are taking lessons for this in Europe . A propaganda method to develop insensible, unconcerned people who are kept sleep with TV series or any kind of pursuit.

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting thehandsom:

Now look above, you are unable take this 'foreign element' out of your brains. You have no answers without 'foreign hands or dark forces'.What lessons do you think I am taking here? who are they you think giving lessons?
what are they? be specific!!

This is pathetic man..

Quoting alameda:

"They" are who they have always been....those that have a lot and want more.

Keep the masses busy and distracted so they don't think about it, or see the man behind the curtain. The connected elite few. It's not Americans, British or Jewish.

"They" have learned to work together for a common goal.

Exactly who it is a mystery. It's a good idea to follow the money....or look at who looses and who gains. As always, motive.

Quoting thehandsom:

Alameda,
Look..
I asked a simple question up there..AND I added 'BE SPECIFIC'
You look at your post and tell me if you have been specific or not!! you are talking about mystery, webs and elusive spiders ya..

Quoting cynicmystic:

This is not called flirting...

It is a simple way of teaching others manners.

The next time you decide to enlighten the rest of us with your deep understanding of things, at least save yourself the emberrassment of posting replies without having read the original post to which you reply. Simple as that.

Regarding flirting with you, I already told you that I am a bit afraid of cats (more of a dog-person, really), and unless you are willing to change that nick from catwoman to dogwoman, I am afraid you don't stand a chance of dating me

Quoting catwoman: Quoting cynicmystic: You said you weren't going to flirt with me, and what is this, eh?

Quoting alameda:

Quoting cynicmystic:

The next time you decide to enlighten the rest of us with your deep understanding of things, at least save yourself the emberrassment of posting replies without having read the original post to which you reply. Simple as that.

Quoting thehandsom:

Tell us then.. Go on..
Tell what Kurds have done to Turks.
So we all learn.

Quoting thehandsom:

I simple asked you a question about what you think my agenda is..
Can you answer? do you have an answer? can you possible have an answer?

Quoting thehandsom:

Look.. This 'secret agenda' thing is not your idea..it is 'embeded' into your head by years and years of listening pathetic statements of the army generals and disfunctional politicans.
The sad thing is, you DONT EVEN REALISE IT.

Quoting thehandsom:

Now look above, you are unable take this 'foreign element' out of your brains. You have no answers without 'foreign hands or dark forces'.
What lessons do you think I am taking here?
who are they you think giving lessons?
what are they? be specific!!

Quoting Daydreamer:

Absolutely right about the former, and wrong about the latter. Perhaps you fail to notice that the whole idea of 'they're here to get us' is a bit like warning people against the UFO. Everybody is there to get you - USA, UE, and Handsom with his Secret Agenda.

Quoting Daydreamer:

You just come looking for conspirators.

Quoting Daydreamer:

As for this forum being biased, I don't see how. Everybody is free to post what they like, how other members respond is everybody's individual business. As long as you don't get vulgar and rude, you may have any opinion you like.

Quoting armegon:

Ahh i forgot, im narrow-minded, here who says Kurds/PKK are freedom-fighters express their thoughts freely but when i say Kurds are nothing but new petrol guardians of Yankees then i became nationalist/racist. But in fact in my entire life i have no connection with the nationalists or ülkücü thats the ironic part

Quoting Daydreamer:

In case you haven't noticed, there are many positive things written about Turkey here. You just have to get used to the fact that people have different opinions about your country's policies than you.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Now that's a bit of an overstatement, don't you think? Nobody here fears or hates those who love their country.

Quoting Daydreamer:

I dearly love my homeland and I'm sure so do most of the users here. It is the paranoia and nationalism that we find ridiculous.

Quoting Daydreamer:

As for experts or those who arrogantly claim to know better. If people write about their conclusions based on some material they read or experiences they were through what makes their logic worse than yours?

Quoting Daydreamer:

For me it's hard to understand Turkish justice if a person is banished for what he writes (not talking about whether he is right or wrong but merely about the fact that in 21st century somebody is banished for intellectual crimes), or when a person faces a trial for saying that she wouldn't like her son to die on war.

Quoting Daydreamer:

Liberal is wrong?

Quoting thehandsom:

Tell us then.. Go on..
Tell what Kurds have done to Turks.
So we all learn.

Quoting tamikidakika:

Quoting thehandsom:

But it was 500 years ago though!

Quoting thehandsom:

I knew Yavuz chopped every alevi's head until Caldiran (in the city of Van) along the way when he was going to battle with persians.
But never heard of what you say..

Quoting armegon:

Your agenda is simple, your agenda is no different than Ali Kemal’s agenda during the Independence war, your agenda is no different than the today’s so-called intellectuels who are paid by EU in order to weaken army or basis of Turkish Republic, your agenda is like the mentality that Turks cannot do anything by themselves. You are at the side of capital not the labour, you support globalisation not the independence. I come up with the ones like you, they all think people can be liberalized only sermoning about human-rights and freedom but they discard the economical and social rights, human-rights and freedom is nothing if people cannot live like a human. You simply support colonilisation.

Quote:

Hmmm, I have to say that you talking nonsense with your UFO simile, last time i gave you an example of Mumcu about this, i think you fail to understand or you are not able to understand. Thats not the fear, not the idea of “everybody is here to get Turkey”, it is observation through the history, what Mumcu wrote was actually portraying future. Now let me ask, what will they gain if Turkey accept genocide? Whats the aim? What if Turkey declare the south east as a province? Whats the aim? Why do you think Turkey forced to sell lands on south east to Israelities? Why do you think Turkey trying to be alienated from nation state? More suitable for colony?

Quoting armegon:

Ahh i forgot, im narrow-minded, here who says Kurds/PKK are freedom-fighters express their thoughts freely but when i say Kurds are nothing but new petrol guardians of Yankees then i became nationalist/racist. But in fact in my entire life i have no connection with the nationalists or ülkücü thats the ironic part

Quote:

also i remember members who were forced to leave the site because of posting about sionism, some leave the site because of insults, labelings etc.

Quote:

By my side, im not looking for positive things about Turkey, im only looking for honesty and justice. And you just have to get used the fact that people do not have to think like you especially for his own country so try to show some respect before labelling people.

Quote:

Actually not, it is not so hard to observe this for a Turk in the forum, thats the reason there arent so many Turkish contributers to the site except the handsom with the not-secret agenda

Quote:

Ohh thats good for you, then i can call you patriot and for sure most of the users are here patriot. I find ridiculous that you are obsessed with paranoia and nationalism more paranoid than the real paranoids.You forgot to say that “Ataturk is not god”. I got bored explaning the same thing.

Quote:

Who said they are experts? Thats not based on logic, thats based on facts actually. It is something like vicious circle, starts same, finishes same. Its something like programmed.

Quote:

I think i have given you an example of this from the laws of Austria and France before, you never touched them and asking this to me again, i said again banishing people because of thoughts is wrong , as for the laws of Turkish some sure should be revised.

Quote:

These are the liberals serve Soros, i explained their aims, now let me ask, is it true for them to slander Army and Atatürk? They go along with the islamists now.

Quoting armegon:

terrorism, the ones you callled 'young people'. Why you abstain to explain this?

Quoting armegon:

Your agenda is simple, your agenda is no different than Ali Kemal’s agenda during the Independence war, your agenda is no different than the today’s so-called intellectuels who are paid by EU in order to weaken army or basis of Turkish Republic, your agenda is like the mentality that Turks cannot do anything by themselves. You are at the side of capital not the labour, you support globalisation not the independence. I come up with the ones like you, they all think people can be liberalized only sermoning about human-rights and freedom but they discard the economical and social rights, human-rights and freedom is nothing if people cannot live like a human. You simply support colonilisation. I bet you are a fan of Sorros.

Quoting armegon:

This not secret agenda Mr.thehansom, this all tested and experienced during the history and still we experience not listening the pathetic statements of anyone. You really sold out and the sad thing is YOU REALIZE THIS .

Quoting armegon:

You reach the truth via unique answer to a question, Mr thehandsom, i think YOU DONT REALIZE THIS TIME . Thats the fact, and their mission is to attack Mustafa Kemal, Army , try to belittle them in the eyes of Turkish nation, thats continuing propogand and thats the lesson but money given who take lessons .