Quoting cynicmystic:

Brilliant.

Did you figure that out all by yourself?

You don't really think that I am going to get into a bogus back & forth post & reply with you, do you. I already spent over an hour and posted exactly what I think about the article, and the fellow who posted it. It is written in plain English.

The nerve I have touched is quite obvius to me. I feel for your pain, though, if it is not clear to you.

Quoting cynicmystic:

You don't really think that I am going to get into a bogus back & forth post & reply with you, do you. I already spent over an hour and posted exactly what I think about the article, and the fellow who posted it. It is written in plain English.

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting cynicmystic:

No hurries...

Take your time to think about it.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting cynicmystic:

No hurries...

Take your time to think about it.

Quoting thehandsom: Quoting cynicmystic: You don't really think that I am going to get into a bogus back & forth post & reply with you, do you. I already spent over an hour and posted exactly what I think about the article, and the fellow who posted it. It is written in plain English. Well.. It seems like there is a personal attack here!! I am obliged to reply.. It is a promise!!!

Quoting thehandsom:

There is not much to think about it really..
As soon as I am done with my domestics, I will start replying..

Quoting cynicmystic: No hurries... Take your time to think about it. Quoting thehandsom: Quoting cynicmystic: You don't really think that I am going to get into a bogus back & forth post & reply with you, do you. I already spent over an hour and posted exactly what I think about the article, and the fellow who posted it. It is written in plain English. Well.. It seems like there is a personal attack here!! I am obliged to reply.. It is a promise!!!

Quoting cynicmystic:

I am neither sure from which country the individual who posted this article is nor do I particularly care about it. Unlike you, however, I will show the courtesy of sharing with others my background, which is Turkish. Had you done the same, we would know where you are from, as well.

Copy-pasting a rather 'biased' article to start a 'charged' topic without any of your own input or thoughts clearly shows that unless someone else puts it into writing, you do not seem to be able to do it for yourself. As a result, instead of responding to your own thoughts, the readers of your pathetic thread are forced to respond to an 'article'. Well, we might as well send a carbon copy of our replies to the publishing newspaper as well, wouldn't you say?

Since my reply is actually to an article, I hope you won't take what I say personally, and be offended.

Let's start with an analysis of the bombastic lingo in this article...

'.............. These European-looking Turks are also quite militarist and nationalist according to Western standards.'

What the hell are we supposed to understand from an idiotic statement like this? The look that has been falsely labelled as 'European' is actually 'Caucasian', which is surely not in the monopoly of Europeans exclusively. The Caucasian look belongs to Eurasia, and the Caucauses, the origin of the term itself, is ironically closer to Turkey than to any Western Europen country. If the European look is referring to the un-Islamic & fashionable outfits in Turkey, then, it must be said that there are more mullahs in London & Paris these days than there are in Turkey.

Another important issue is the criteria for the so-called 'western standards' in regards to being 'militaristic nationalists'. Believe me that there are no such standards, and any bombastic author that makes such references in his writing is surely talking out of his ass. On a different tune, Europeans aren't impressing anyone in the world with their 'European standards' anymore anyways. Those days have been over for quite a while.

Regarding the issue of indoctrination at Turkish schools, I am surprised by how one-sided his view is. Every country in the world that has an education system & a national identity indoctrinates their young ones. Yes, the level and intensity of indoctrination varies from country to country, but nevertheless, every country, even the 'civilized' Western countries, indoctrinate their children in one form or the other. If the writer of the article, and the other clowns on this forum, who seem to support his views, are claiming that the situation in Turkey is exceptional, and much worse, then I would have to disagree with that.

As someone who had to go through the ritual of 'swearing alliance & oath' in the mornings, on the contrary to the writer's claims, I didn't turn out to be a 'militaristic Kemalist' bent on supressing other minorities and imposing Kemalist values. In fact, I dislike Kemalists, Nationalists, Patriots, Separatists, Pan-Turkists etc as much as I hate bible-thumping Evangelists, Zionists, Mullahs, and other war-mongering parasites.

For me, the ritual was actually of significant importance, not because it instilled in me a solid sense of 'Turkishness & Kemalist values', but simply because it was the only opportunity during the week where all the students gathered in the courtyard. Hormones raging at that age, it was more of a social event where the guys would check out the girls stroll down the stairs, glimpsing at their legs, as each class congregated for the ceremony. As shameless as this may sound, it was a great opportunity to check out the girls that you had a crush on, while winking at the girls, who had a crush on you. Aside from checking out the legs, other very important social activities, such as the exchange of weekend gossip, plans for a soccer game with the rival class during lunch break etc would be discussed.

I never felt like being indoctrinated because, like many of my friends, I never took it seriously, or literally. In fact, had they just bothered to ask, I would have surely preferred to stay in the courtyard all day reciting the oath of alliance than go to classroom. Children in the USA, UK, Germany etc go through severe forms of indoctrination, not only at school, but outside as well through TV and religious activities. Not every corner of North America is as liberal & democratic as New York or LA. I find Americans to be extremely indoctrinated, for example. More so than Turks in fact. The same could be said for the English as well. Writing an article about how children are being brainwashed because of the morning oath is nothing but a cheap shot without much aim.

Let's quote another bombastic statement:

'The education system, which constantly praises the “Turkish existence,” curiously says nothing about the existence of other ethnic identities in Turkey.'

The education system doesn't have to say jack about the existence of other ethnicities simply because it is obvious and right there in front of you each time you go for a walk or watch TV. The author would be surprised how many Turks are actually very well aware of the mixed heritage of their homeland and its people in comparison to some of their European & North American counterparts. We all notice the ethnic diversity as well as the non-ethnic diversity.

When I was a little kid, my family lived in the old Armenian quarters of Istanbul, where there was still a significant number of Armenians, who had stayed after WWI. Our right door neighbour was Armenian, and regularly, I would spend evenings at their home playing with their children, if my parents were working late. In the same way, my parents would do the same when they were out. Not only were we aware of each other's existence, but we interacted with each other as well. From a really young age, I also noticed that a lot of construction workers in Istanbul spoke a language that I couldn't understand. It didn't take long to figure out that it was Kurdish. Later on, I also noticed that a lot of the these workers were hired by wealthier Kurdish contractors, who had prospered in Western Turkey, and discriminated and looked down on these workers, as much as their Turkish upper-class Istanbulite friends. Again, later on, I also learned that not all Kurdish dialects spoken in Turkey are mutually intelligable. Zaza, for example, a Kurdish group in Turkey, cannot understand the Kurdish dialect of Kurmanchi, which is spoken by a much larger group of Kurds that live in Turkey, Iran & Iraq. On a trip to the Black Sea region, I couldn't help giggling at the way the locals talked. How there were non-Turkish dialects of Georgian origin still spoken in pockets of remote villages by the elders, or how the Laz originally came from Georgia and mixed with Pontic Greeks of Trebizond were right there in front of you. When we travelled to the Aegean region, the Greco/Anatolian ethnic elements were also visible. The point I am trying to make is that dramatic examples, such as incishka's about how a Kurdish student whispered to her/his ear, or the ones expressed in the article are not only inaccurate observations, but are also generalizations.

Yes, there is discrimination & suppression in Turkey in one form or the other just like everywhere else in the world. However, this discrimination is not exactly or predominantly ethnic. It is a lot more complicated than that. For example, wealthier Turks, usually of Istanbul, discriminate against the so-called 'kro' Turks of the eastern provinces. They make fun of the way they talk, call them 'peasents', and the very word 'kro', which is a derivateive of the name of the Kurdish dialect, Kurmanchi, applies equally to anyone, whether Turkish or Kurdish, that doesn't meet superficial Istanbulite standards.

Among the so-called 'peasents of the east', there is uniform resentment against the spoiled, and snobby city-dwellers & the plasticity of their culture. The pan-Turkists, who suffer from a minor case of delusion, want a unified Turkic empire across central Asia. They usually beat up innocent people, who fail to make the 'Ulkucu' wolf sign with their hands during their traffic blockdes. The religious fundamentalist pundits come in all shapes and ethnicities ready to massacre all others, too, once given the opportunity. The lower-middle class is always ready to be duped by propaganda and flock out to the streets to protest this or that. Ethnicity hardly ever plays a role in most cases.

The wealthier western Kurds discrminate against other eastern Kurds that are part of the ashiret clan system. The ashiret leaders literally exert authority over thousands of their clan members through their own interpretation of their 'tore'. It is literally brutal. The political bears of Ankara prize themselves the most in bogus forms of Kemalism, thinking that they are the only ones in the whole country preoccupied with maintaining the unity of our homeland against all outside powers bent on demolishing us, the Republic of Turkey!!!

For many of these multi-ethnical & political posers, if they don't see a framed picture of Ataturk in your office, you are immediately labelled as a parasite to the Kemalist cause.

To keep this brief, the point is rather simple. The truth is that the people, who live in Turkey, regardless of their ethnic origins, are very gullible, and yet not so naive. It is easy to play with their emotions, and manipulate their thoughts, but they are absolutely not products of an educational system that has 'brainwashed' them. This observation in the article is wrong.

People who live in Turkey are very well aware of the progress Turkey has made as well as its shortcomings. Nobody of any ethnic background is blind or dumb. On the contrary to the article, we aren't all brainwashed, at least not significantly more than our counterparts in other countries.

Thanks to bombastic news in the media, there is always a way to find a suitable victim to instigate a national paranoia in Turkey - particularly against Greece & Armenia, if not the PKK. You can always pump up the patriotic bravada with bogus media stories about a Greek invasion of a worthless set of islands, or the Armenian diaspora trying to discredit Turks abroad. Barzani was the latest one. It is unbelievable how easy it is to turn masses of normally ordinary people into flag-burning fanatics.

It is also ironic that the very same people not only burn the flags of the perceived-threat countries, but also burn the flags of foreign soccer teams after losing at the European Cup (always due to the ref). Even domestic teams may suffer being burned by the local fanatics. There is always a good reason to protest in Turkey, and ethnic difference is not at the top of the list.

I actually see a bigger problem in Turkish education system than the oath of alliance. Over the years, a significant number of rather annoying members of the English-speaking world have relocated to Turkey as ESL teachers at private schools. These backpacker-turned-ESL-instructors, who are often not qualified to teach ESL in their own contries, are very much welcomed by Turkish people, and are often admired a lot more than they actually deserve. Such foreigners often find out that they are paid quite well in Turkey, and can actually live a lot better in Istanbul (or Izmir & Ankara) than they ever could in their own countries with their intellectual capacities. It is often a matter of months before they find a Turkish girlfriend or boyfriend, get married and settle down. Once this happens, these backpacker-philosophers develop ideas about the problems of Turkey. They share their annoying & often ignorant views generously at dinner parties that they have been invited to by the parents of their private students, who pay them quite a bit of money to tutor their children. So, the side benefits are obvious. And, they gibber & gibber.

They tell us how there are violations of human rights, police brutality, the suppression of Kurds, domestic violence against women, corruption, Turkish mullahs, what Turkey needs to do to join the EU etc etc etc etc. They have a freaking idea about everything, and believe me when I tell you that they annoy the hell out of almost every other 'educated' Turk that I know. To these ignorant clowns, the only reason why we, the 'more educated Turks' may appear as 'close-minded militaristic patriots' is perhaps because that is the image we portray on purpose. Along the same lines, when similar individuals post topics on message boards to psyche people up, we tend to write lengthy replies.

I think your thread is insincere my friend.

Quoting cynicmystic:

Are you as handsom as your nick suggests?

Quoting alameda:

Quoting cynicmystic:

Cheers for the warm welcome.

I may come off as a bit too direct or aggressive, but I often speak my mind.