Well, PT, I actually intended every single word I wrote - because I was writitng from my perspective. Much as I admire people who decide to give birth to and raise disabled children, I would undergo an abortion if I learnt my child would be disabled. And I don´t think Teas or Liz have the right to force me to keep a child that I would never be able to love or bring up, and they´d better not suggest giving it away for adoption - chances are scarce. Also, life in an institution without prospects of ever going out is not a good choice either.

 Well done LL.  I too juggled a career and motherhood with great success and people forget that the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren is also very important indeed.  As a grandmother, I understand this even more now. 

However, I think that your original assertion should have been accepted without requiring ´proof´.

I´ve had many conversations with friends about this and it seems that one´s own upbringing can also affect the way you view this issue.  One friend had an unhappy childhood due to a stay at home mother, who didn´t have the patience to give her child a great deal of quality time, even though she was with her all day!  I suppose this could result in either that child ensuring she became a very attentive and creative stay at home mother or juggling work and motherhood creatively to ensure everyone is stimulated and time together is quality.

Needless to say, childcare is a big issue and great care has to be taken to ensure this is of high quality.  Nursery placement here is becoming quite a big priority here in the UK and the government is giving it a big push.  However, not every child thrives in this environment and a home environment with a qualified child carer is a better option.  Unfortunately government insistance on documenting a child´s every step of development is becoming very unattractive to many carers.  Many believe that photos and discussion after every session with parents is sufficient.  As schools are inspected, so are in the home child carers.  This is as it should be, but I´m not sure production of mountains of paperwork for one child is the sign of a good carer.  A discussion with the parents would be far more insightful.  The first thing inspectors of schools do is distribute questionnaires to all parents and the school is not allowed to open the replies.  I´m sure this must be done for home inspections, but I would say a discussion with parents would also give valuable feedback.

Not everyone has the luxury of staying at home with their child either, eg. single parents.  Some couples decide that they will each have a part time job, so that they can share childcare yet have some life in the outside world as an individual. 

There isn´t only one solution to successful parenting or providing a happy life experience for one´s children.  Every situation is different and people should not be blinkered by their own experience/view.

 But what is your perception of disability? Not all children born with a disability are destined for a life in an institution without ever seeing the light of day. 

Do/Did these people live an institutionalised life?

David Blunkett  (British Politician - Blind since birth)

(http://www.disabled-world.com)

Stevie Wonder became blind during his infancy so was not blind from birth, but he hasn´t led an institutionalised life and has contributed much to the world of music.

Let me be clear, I am with you regarding pro choice.  I am not with you regarding your assertion that "disability" means a life of institutionalisation and/or pain .  I am not saying that people should never abort even if they discover a disability.  I had thought I had misunderstood your initial comment about disablity and what it means.  It seemed such a generalisation and I wondered where you drew the line regarding the term "disability".  I´m still not really clear as  your post above still makes me wonder how you define disability.  People can have a physical disability, yet have the most fantastic intellect/cognitive ability, on the other hand people can have perfect physical ability but are locked in the mind of a two year old.  Some lead a vegetative existence.  There are just too many variants to quote.  Nowadays what would have been deemed a disability 50 or even 30 years ago is no longer seen that way.  With the progression of science, many barriers to quality of life can be overcome even if the condition cannot be cured. 

Interestingly, many people institutionalised in "Mental Hospitals" here 50 or more years ago were young women who had become pregnant, people suffering from epilepsy (Julius Caesar and Lenin both had this condition) and people with basic learning difficulties. 

My friend´s husband is dyslexic but he still obtained a first class honours degree.  Dyslexia can be a barrier to learning (but it is not an insurmountable barrier) but is it a disability in your eyes, that would warrant abortion?  If a test could be invented that detected dyslexia or verbal dyspraxia, I wonder how prospective parents would view that?

I think having a view on something and actually being faced with the prospect can be quite different.  I´m sure many people don´t waiver from their belief , but I´m sure there are also those that have a complete turnaround when faced with the reality of having to make a choice.  I also don´t believe adoption of ´disabled´ children is ´scarce´.

I was very careful not to mention having children adopted at birth, because I don´t believe a mother should have to go through such an experience if they don´t wish to.

I will say again DD whatever decision both parents arrive at, after reading all the information available to them etc., it is there choice. 

I´m still genuinely interested

 I guess euthanasia is a little similar,emotionally, to the abortion debate, except the choice often lies with the person who will die.  There have actually been several high profile cases in the UK and America, some individuals fighting for the right to die and some fighting for the right to live.  There was a case in the US (I can´t remember the name of the lady involved) where familiy and friends contested the Health professionals´ that a particular patient had no quality of life and was, to all intents an purposes, dead (I stand to be corrected on my phrasing here as I am trying to recall the specifics).  The family and friends lost their battle and the lady lost her life.  It seemed a very difficult case.  There have also been cases of people in a coma for months, even years before regaining consciousness.

Some have fears that a law pro euthanasia might lead to unscrupulous decisions merely on the grounds of cost or potential organ donation.

Another mine field DK !!

As for disability, I wasn´t by any means implying that disabled people should have been aborted before birth, sorry if you understood it like that. I was speaking about mine and mine only ability to raise a child with any kind of disability that would prevent him/her from living an independent life in a later stage of life. Thus dyslexia is hardly a disability (not to mention it can´t be diagnosed in uterus), but Down´s Syndrome is. I know a few disabled people and I find them nice people but I wouldn´t want to carry the burden of devoting my life to raising one. I may be selfish but all kinds of mental disabilities would be reasons to terminate pregnancy for me. The same with malfomed foetus and I´m not speaking here about sixth toe but more serious deformations that would require me to devote more time to raise such a child than a healthy one.

I´m also pro-euthanasia. There´s nothing more humiliating than impossibility to decide about your own life. If you´re mentally healthy and decide you don´t want to live anymore and if there is a person who is willing to help you end your life no court should have the power to tell you you can´t die.

 Well then you are fortunate that you could make this decision financially, not everyone can.  Believe me I taught my son the exact same things and were there for everyone of his highs and lows.   You can still have a career and be a mother.

Quoting peacetrain

 But what is your perception of disability? Not all children born with a disability are destined for a life in an institution without ever seeing the light of day. 

 

Do/Did these people live an institutionalised life?

 

 

David Blunkett  (British Politician - Blind since birth)

 

Jean Driscoll - Jean was born with spina bifida, a birth defect that resulted in the improper development of her spine. She is a world-renowned athlete who is also making an impact as a professional speaker. Her motivational and powerful presentations have been lauded by CEO´s of corporate and non-profit enterprises, the U.S. government, and all levels of the education system. The Boston Marathon added a wheelchair division for women in 1977. The record for most repeated championships stands at 8, held by Jean Driscoll in the Women´s Wheelchair division.

 

Robert Hensel - Being an international poet and writer, Robert has never let spina bifida come in the way of his artistic mind. "There were many times that my schoolmates would laugh at me and call me names simply because of their lack of understanding of why I was a little different". He was awarded the title of one of the best poets of the 20th century with over 900 publications worldwide and detains the world record at Guiness and Ripley´s for the longest non stop wheelie in a weelchair.

 

(http://www.disabled-world.com)

 

Stevie Wonder became blind during his infancy so was not blind from birth, but he hasn´t led an institutionalised life and has contributed much to the world of music.

 

Let me be clear, I am with you regarding pro choice.  I am not with you regarding your assertion that "disability" means a life of institutionalisation and/or pain .  I am not saying that people should never abort even if they discover a disability.  I had thought I had misunderstood your initial comment about disablity and what it means.  It seemed such a generalisation and I wondered where you drew the line regarding the term "disability".  I´m still not really clear as  your post above still makes me wonder how you define disability.  People can have a physical disability, yet have the most fantastic intellect/cognitive ability, on the other hand people can have perfect physical ability but are locked in the mind of a two year old.  Some lead a vegetative existence.  There are just too many variants to quote.  Nowadays what would have been deemed a disability 50 or even 30 years ago is no longer seen that way.  With the progression of science, many barriers to quality of life can be overcome even if the condition cannot be cured. 

 

Interestingly, many people institutionalised in "Mental Hospitals" here 50 or more years ago were young women who had become pregnant, people suffering from epilepsy (Julius Caesar and Lenin both had this condition) and people with basic learning difficulties. 

 

My friend´s husband is dyslexic but he still obtained a first class honours degree.  Dyslexia can be a barrier to learning (but it is not an insurmountable barrier) but is it a disability in your eyes, that would warrant abortion?  If a test could be invented that detected dyslexia or verbal dyspraxia, I wonder how prospective parents would view that?

 

I think having a view on something and actually being faced with the prospect can be quite different.  I´m sure many people don´t waiver from their belief , but I´m sure there are also those that have a complete turnaround when faced with the reality of having to make a choice.  I also don´t believe adoption of ´disabled´ children is ´scarce´.

 

I was very careful not to mention having children adopted at birth, because I don´t believe a mother should have to go through such an experience if they don´t wish to.

 

I will say again DD whatever decision both parents arrive at, after reading all the information available to them etc., it is there choice. 

Very nice article you shared peacetrain, I really enjoyed it.  I believe it takes a certain kind of person to be able to care and raise for a disabled child.  But I don´t believe aborting it is the answer.  We have other options like adoption.  Believe it or not families do adopt handicapp children.  I have volunteered my summers to work with kids of all disabilities and most people would be shocked to learn these children are usually the happiest kids in this world.

What don´t you understand, I thought I made myself perfectly clear...  How did we get onto the subject of the poor in Africa and India?  Walmart?  You obviously haven´t read my posts here...I hate Walmart. 

Once again I believe if you are raped or just don´t want a baby because it´s inconvienent for you, then give it up for adoption.  I believe everyone deserves a chance in life.....Why is that so hard to comprehend?  You don´t have to agree..

 This is what I guessed about your concept of disability, but didn´t want to assume.That´s why I asked you again.  Of course your personal choice should not be in dispute and I never intended you to think I thought you were selfish. 

I know dyslexia can´t be diagnosed in the uterus and it´s the same with many other conditions.  Even Down´s Syndrome is not detected every  time. 

AS I said, I wasn´t discussing the abortion issue, but the perception of "disability" and some people view dyslexia as a barrier to learning and thus a disability. 

Anyway you clarified your perception.

Thanks

You did NOT answer my question. I asked, and will repeat it here in a simple form. Do you believe the government should have the right to intrude on a woman´s choice? Are you for a candidate that would take that choice away?