General/Off-topic |
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Very good article about the current position about Terrorism in Turkey
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1. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 11:10 am |
I am sorry it is in turkish... didnt have much time to translate...
from Yýlmaz Özdil
Kararlýlýk mesajý çýktý ya daha ne istiyorsunuz?
Eðip bükmeden soralým...
*
Son 5-6 yýlda...
PKK’lý mý týktýk içeri?
Subay-astsubay mý?
*
Eli silahlý teröristlere habire af çýkarýrken; Ãstiklal Madalyasý sahibi Jandarma Genel Komutaný’ný hapse atýp,
beyin kanamasý geçirene kadar içerde tutmadýk mý?
PKK’ya yataklýk yaptýðý için hapiste yatan kadýný, çýkarýp, Meclis’e sokarken, Cumhurbaþkaný’nýn masasýna
davet ederken; 1’inci Ordu Komutaný’ný ´terör örgütü kurmak´tan içeri týkmadýk mý?
Þehide ´kelle´ dediði için tazminat ödemeye mahkûm olan, ´Askerlik yan gelip yatma yeri deðildir ca -
ným kardeþim´ diyen Baþbakan’a, ´Bravo, aynen devam´ deyip, yüzde 47 oy vermedik mi?
PKK, hastalanmamasý için serçe parmaðýnýn tansiyonu bile ölçülen Abdullah Öcalan’ýn saçý kesildi diye, kal -
kýþma provasý yapýp, Diyarbakýr’ý yakýp yýktýðýnda, polisin-askerin elini tutup, ´Cana geleceðine mala gel -
sin´ diyen Diyarbakýr Valisi’ne ´aferin´ deyip, Baþbakanlýk Müsteþarý yapmadýk mý?
Kafamýzda Amerikan çuvalýyla gezerken, koordinatör saçmalýðý icat edip, ´Amerika bizi çok seviyor, istih -
barat verecek´ demedik mi?
´Amerika istedi diye harekátý kýsa kestik, içerde parça býraktýk, o kamplarý tutmamýz gerekirdi´
dediði için, neredeyse ´vatan haini´ ilan edilen Deniz Baykal, o kamplardan gelen teröristler önceki gün
Aktütün’ü bastýðýnda haklý çýkmadý mý?
Irak’taki hacivat ´Kedi bile vermem´ derken; yaralý PKK’lýlarýn tedavi edildiði Kuzey Irak’taki hastaneyi bile
kendi ellerimizle yapmadýk mý?
Vatandaþa zam üstüne zam geçirirken, PKK’yý koynunda besleyen Barzani’ye, Talabani’ye yarý fiyatýna elek -
trik vermiyor muyuz?
Ãstanbul’da, Ankara’da, Ãzmir’de kadýnlarý çocuklarý havaya uçurduklarýnda; besleme medyadaki arkadaþlar
utanmadan, ´Ne malum PKK’nýn yaptýðý´ demedi mi?
Þehit çocuklarý çýplak ayakla gezerken, tabut baþýndaki karný burnunda tazeler Allah’ýyla baþ baþa kalmýþken;
fitreleri zekátlarý Mehmetçik Vakfý yerine, Almanya’da din-iman hortumcusu olduðu alenen tescillenen Deniz
Feneri’ne vermiyor muyuz?
Gariban ailelerin çocuklarý þakýr þakýr þehit düþerken, subay-astsubay çocuklarý oradan oraya tayin edilip,
lise mezunu olana kadar 28 tane þehir deðiþtiriyor; yaþadýklarý travma nedeniyle üniversite kazanamýyor ve
onlara hiçbir ayrýcalýk tanýnmýyorken; ´Babamýn parasý var, benim de bokumda boncuk var, onun için
yurtdýþýnda okuyorum´ diyenler askerlikten yýrtmýyor mu?
Bir zamanlar bu memlekette askerlik yapmayana kýz bile verilmezken, ´Popomda sivilce çýktý, bak bu da
raporu´ diyenler, askerlikten sýyýrmýyor mu?
*
Genelkurmay, 68 kere basýlan 46 þehit verdiðimiz gecekondudan bozma dandik karakolu, parasýzlýk nedeniyle
100 metre ileriye taþýyamadýðýmýzý açýklarken; Genelkurmay eski Baþkaný’na, korgeneral refakatinde askeri
uçakla taþýyarak, 1 trilyon liralýk zýrhlý Audi almadýk mý?
*
Neymiþ efendim, terör zirvesi toplanmýþ, kararlýlýk mesajý çýkmýþ...
Yerim ben sizin o kararlýlýk diyen dillerinizi, yerim.
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2. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 11:51 am |
I must say that I find this guy quite "shallow and out of depth".
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3. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 02:16 pm |
I must say that I find this guy quite "shallow and out of depth".
But surprisingly this only happens when there comes an article "against" your point of view.
I bet you would applause if he has said "god damn turkish nationalism!".
Also i want to add here, nationalism is not that bad, it also consists the to be in good touch with people around you, thats what i learnt at "ATA102" course... but what you are talking is "fanatism" not "nationalism"
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4. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 02:23 pm |
Nationalism is what is preventing this ongoing crisis from being solved. It doesn´t belong in this century.
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5. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 02:33 pm |
Europeans often tend to misinterpret turkish nationalism and they do not make a distinguish between the ultra-nationalists and Ataturk nationalists because their history and culture are different, you may believe that nationalism is a bad thing, but YOU do not determine what is today´s century´s and what is not. A person can be both a nationalist and humanist.
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6. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 02:43 pm |
I must say that I find this guy quite "shallow and out of depth".
He´s only asking questions demanding a "yes" to his questions. To which ones would you say a "no"?
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7. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 02:50 pm |
Europeans often tend to misinterpret turkish nationalism and they do not make a distinguish between the ultra-nationalists and Ataturk nationalists because their history and culture are different, you may believe that nationalism is a bad thing, but YOU do not determine what is today´s century´s and what is not. A person can be both a nationalist and humanist.
Nationalism is a bad thing in this century.. There is no x nationalism or y nationalism..
nationalism is nationalism..
Almost all nationalisms define themselves more with enemies than friends.
You should be under NO illusion of ´others nationalism are bad but mine are sweet and good´.
It will be hard to defend our nationalism while opposing the kurdish nationalism for example.
If it comes to saying that ´but we inherited it from Ataturk´, it is a different matter:
It is almost pick and mix..
When it comes to Ataturk´s devletcilik-state control-, inklapcilik (revolutionism) (or one of the main ideas of Ataturk was westernisation), nobody asks why we are not following those rules anymore.
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8. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 03:06 pm |
He´s only asking questions demanding a "yes" to his questions. To which ones would say a "no"?
I find him shollow , not because I disagree with him (I respect many writers with whom I disagree), because he is shallow and the way he is writing is reminding me the chats you get in kahvehanes..(ie following only a few papers, watching the news only from the telly, not bothering to think if there might be another angle, accepting everything what genarals say etc etc)
Eli silahlý teröristlere habire af çýkarýrken; Ãstiklal Madalyasý sahibi Jandarma Genel Komutaný’ný hapse atýp, beyin kanamasý geçirene kadar içerde tutmadýk mý?
Oha.. was there an amnesty and did we not hear it?
PKK’ya yataklýk yaptýðý için hapiste yatan kadýný, çýkarýp, Meclis’e sokarken, Cumhurbaþkaný’nýn masasýna davet ederken; 1’inci Ordu Komutaný’ný ´terör örgütü kurmak´tan içeri týkmadýk mý?
Oha2.. If the head of 1st army is guilty WHY NOT!!. And ask yourself if that woman -Leyla Zana- had any weapon in her hands!! When is that man going to understand what is terrorism what is ´freedom of expressing opinion´ is?
Þehide ´kelle´ dediði için tazminat ödemeye mahkûm olan, ´Askerlik yan gelip yatma yeri deðildir ca -ným kardeþim´ diyen Baþbakan’a, ´Bravo, aynen devam´ deyip, yüzde 47 oy vermedik mi?
Oha3. Disrespecting half of the population because they voted for AKP.
PKK, hastalanmamasý için serçe parmaðýnýn tansiyonu bile ölçülen Abdullah Öcalan’ýn saçý kesildi diye, kal -kýþma provasý yapýp, Diyarbakýr’ý yakýp yýktýðýnda, polisin-askerin elini tutup, ´Cana geleceðine mala gel -sin´ diyen Diyarbakýr Valisi’ne ´aferin´ deyip, Baþbakanlýk Müsteþarý yapmadýk mý?
Oha4. Would it be better if there were many deaths?
´Amerika istedi diye harekátý kýsa kestik, içerde parça býraktýk, o kamplarý tutmamýz gerekirdi´ dediði için, neredeyse ´vatan haini´ ilan edilen Deniz Baykal, o kamplardan gelen teröristler önceki gün Aktütün’ü bastýðýnda haklý çýkmadý mý?
Oha 5. Everybody but everybody knew those northern iraq incursions were not resulting into anything..Including the army..It was a political game from the beginning..
Anyway..I wont answer the rest...
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9. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 03:07 pm |
That was well put.
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10. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 04:20 pm |
I find him shollow , not because I disagree with him (I respect many writers with whom I disagree), because he is shallow and the way he is writing is reminding me the chats you get in kahvehanes..(ie following only a few papers, watching the news only from the telly, not bothering to think if there might be another angle, accepting everything what genarals say etc etc)
Eli silahlý teröristlere habire af çýkarýrken; Ãstiklal Madalyasý sahibi Jandarma Genel Komutaný’ný hapse atýp, beyin kanamasý geçirene kadar içerde tutmadýk mý?
Oha.. was there an amnesty and did we not hear it?
Well, I am on the writer side and I would ask the same question. That´s your opinion.
PKK’ya yataklýk yaptýðý için hapiste yatan kadýný, çýkarýp, Meclis’e sokarken, Cumhurbaþkaný’nýn masasýna davet ederken; 1’inci Ordu Komutaný’ný ´terör örgütü kurmak´tan içeri týkmadýk mý?
Oha2.. If the head of 1st army is guilty WHY NOT!!. And ask yourself if that woman -Leyla Zana- had any weapon in her hands!! When is that man going to understand what is terrorism what is ´freedom of expressing opinion´ is?
He’s not talking about Zana. He’s talking about somebody who helped the terorists. If there is a crime, it should be punished. What´s the crime got to do with "freedem of expression"?
Þehide ´kelle´ dediði için tazminat ödemeye mahkûm olan, ´Askerlik yan gelip yatma yeri deðildir ca -ným kardeþim´ diyen Baþbakan’a, ´Bravo, aynen devam´ deyip, yüzde 47 oy vermedik mi?
Oha3. Disrespecting half of the population because they voted for AKP.
We know what/who our "Hükümetin baþý" is. What can you expect from an "Imam"? He always shows us what he knows of anything with his speeches everyday (I should say what he doesn´t actually). I am speechless for those who voted for him (not his Party, without him AKP wouldn´t get that many votes).
PKK, hastalanmamasý için serçe parmaðýnýn tansiyonu bile ölçülen Abdullah Öcalan’ýn saçý kesildi diye, kal -kýþma provasý yapýp, Diyarbakýr’ý yakýp yýktýðýnda, polisin-askerin elini tutup, ´Cana geleceðine mala gel -sin´ diyen Diyarbakýr Valisi’ne ´aferin´ deyip, Baþbakanlýk Müsteþarý yapmadýk mý?
Oha4. Would it be better if there were many deaths?
TheI am afraid there will be more deaths in the future. We are going to a separation with Kurds.
´Amerika istedi diye harekátý kýsa kestik, içerde parça býraktýk, o kamplarý tutmamýz gerekirdi´ dediði için, neredeyse ´vatan haini´ ilan edilen Deniz Baykal, o kamplardan gelen teröristler önceki gün Aktütün’ü bastýðýnda haklý çýkmadý mý?
Oha 5. Everybody but everybody knew those northern iraq incursions were not resulting into anything..Including the army..It was a political game from the beginning..
Anyway..I wont answer the rest...
Come on we were rendering terrorist ineffective. Had we stayed a few more days more of these bastards we would get rid of. Weren´t we ordered by US to stop it? I find Baykal´s statement right. By the way who´s side are you on? I have a feeling that you are here on this site to make PKK propaganda?
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11. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 04:49 pm |
Could somebody interpretate this for us, so we can follow along?
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12. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 05:01 pm |
Come on we were rendering terrorist ineffective. Had we stayed a few more days more of these bastards we would get rid of. Weren´t we ordered by US to stop it? I find Baykal´s statement right. By the way who´s side are you on? I have a feeling that you are here on this site to make PKK propaganda?
Si, it hasn´t been helping for ages and ages, so how can more dead innocent ERs and civillians contribute to a solution in the future? PKK will fight to the last person standing, because they believe in their cause so much, and more people join them not in spite of but because of the army´s actions. The army generals who are so busy with failing campaigns should just go out there themselves and fight. Maybe then they would learn a thing or two about sending privates out in hopeless situations.
It´s time for dialog and more should be done to keep civilians safe and to prevent attacks in public places. Or I´m afraid it´s just a neverending battle.
Wait I forgot - is this a no-no according to the new rules?
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13. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 05:25 pm |
A reminder: PKK subject is not open to discussion.
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14. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 05:28 pm |
Oha.. was there an amnesty and did we not hear it?
Well, I am on the writer side and I would ask the same question. That´s your opinion.
Obviously I am NOT on the writer´s side on this.. where is the amnesty he has been talking about? and about the general, what if he is guilty? (well..There was an organization in that branch of the army called JITEM..Because of that many more should be taken to the court)
PKK’ya yataklýk yaptýðý için hapiste yatan kadýný, çýkarýp, Meclis’e sokarken, Cumhurbaþkaný’nýn masasýna davet ederken; 1’inci Ordu Komutaný’ný ´terör örgütü kurmak´tan içeri týkmadýk mý?
Oha2.. If the head of 1st army is guilty WHY NOT!!. And ask yourself if that woman -Leyla Zana- had any weapon in her hands!! When is that man going to understand what is terrorism what is ´freedom of expressing opinion´ is?
He’s not talking about Zana. He’s talking about somebody who helped the terorists. If there is a crime, it should be punished. What´s the crime got to do with "freedem of expression"?
I was not aware of that..But my example Leyla Zana would not be wrong here..Do you know how many years did she spend in jail while she never had any weapons in her hands?
Þehide ´kelle´ dediði için tazminat ödemeye mahkûm olan, ´Askerlik yan gelip yatma yeri deðildir ca -ným kardeþim´ diyen Baþbakan’a, ´Bravo, aynen devam´ deyip, yüzde 47 oy vermedik mi?
Oha3. Disrespecting half of the population because they voted for AKP.
We know what/who our "Hükümetin baþý" is. What can you expect from an "Imam"? He always shows us what he knows of anything with his speeches everyday (I should say what he doesn´t actually). I am speechless for those who voted for him (not his Party, without him AKP wouldn´t get that many votes).
Actually, you have to ask the army´s bending arm tactics, messing with politics etc for AKP´s success..
Your country´s people voted for him.
PKK, hastalanmamasý için serçe parmaðýnýn tansiyonu bile ölçülen Abdullah Öcalan’ýn saçý kesildi diye, kal -kýþma provasý yapýp, Diyarbakýr’ý yakýp yýktýðýnda, polisin-askerin elini tutup, ´Cana geleceðine mala gel -sin´ diyen Diyarbakýr Valisi’ne ´aferin´ deyip, Baþbakanlýk Müsteþarý yapmadýk mý?
Oha4. Would it be better if there were many deaths?
TheI am afraid there will be more deaths in the future. We are going to a separation with Kurds.
yes, I am afraid, there will be more deaths too but the responsiblity will be on the people who insist that "we go and we kill, we finish, they are all terrorists, we dont talk to any one, there is not kurdish problem" . Personally, nationalisms on both sides will be responsible.
´Amerika istedi diye harekátý kýsa kestik, içerde parça býraktýk, o kamplarý tutmamýz gerekirdi´ dediði için, neredeyse ´vatan haini´ ilan edilen Deniz Baykal, o kamplardan gelen teröristler önceki gün Aktütün’ü bastýðýnda haklý çýkmadý mý?
Oha 5. Everybody but everybody knew those northern iraq incursions were not resulting into anything..Including the army..It was a political game from the beginning..
Anyway..I wont answer the rest...
Come on we were rendering terrorist ineffective. Had we stayed a few more days more of these bastards we would get rid of. Weren´t we ordered by US to stop it? I find Baykal´s statement right. By the way who´s side are you on? I have a feeling that you are here on this site to make PKK propaganda?
And because "I dont think going to northern iraq was a good idea" makes me a pkk propagandist? There are millions in Turkey thinking in the same way..
OHA yani..
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15. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 05:49 pm |
Quoting thehandsom
Anyway..I wont answer the rest...
Come on we were rendering terrorist ineffective. Had we stayed a few more days more of these bastards we would get rid of. Weren´t we ordered by US to stop it? I find Baykal´s statement right. By the way who´s side are you on? I have a feeling that you are here on this site to make PKK propaganda?
And because "I dont think going to northern iraq was a good idea" makes me a pkk propagandist? There are millions in Turkey thinking in the same way..
OHA yani..
Never mind, it´s just a feeling. You can´t help it. I can´t help it either.
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16. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 05:53 pm |
Si, it hasn´t been helping for ages and ages, so how can more dead innocent ERs and civillians contribute to a solution in the future? PKK will fight to the last person standing, because they believe in their cause so much, and more people join them not in spite of but because of the army´s actions. The army generals who are so busy with failing campaigns should just go out there themselves and fight. Maybe then they would learn a thing or two about sending privates out in hopeless situations.So you think we should blame the army generals for this. No there is more than that.
It´s time for dialog and more should be done to keep civilians safe and to prevent attacks in public places. Or I´m afraid it´s just a neverending battle.Right, it never ends until a civil war followed by separation and that´s what some big guys outside of Turkey wants!
Wait I forgot - is this a no-no according to the new rules?
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17. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 06:26 pm |
Never mind, it´s just a feeling. You can´t help it. I can´t help it either.
Well..
I hope next time you wont accuse people in a way you did up there
Because, People will ask ´where is the proof?´.
´Ahh it is just a feeling!!´ wont be a good answer!
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18. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 06:33 pm |
Well..
I hope next time you wont accuse people in a way you did up there
Because, People will ask ´where is the proof?´.
´Ahh it is just a feeling!!´ wont be a good answer!
Well, I have stated that "I have a feeling...". If you take it as an accusition, so be it.
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19. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 06:39 pm |
Well, I have stated that "I have a feeling...". If you take it as an accusition, so be it.
I have already told you ´i have a feeling that you are a pkk propagandist´ is not good enough.
You have to prove and show how you come to the conclusion.
If you can NOT, you open the gates of slur here such as:
´I have a feeling that you are this´
´I have a feeling that you are that´
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20. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 06:43 pm |
I have a feeling that this thread will be locked! But I have no proof.
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21. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 06:48 pm |
I have already told you ´i have a feeling that you are a pkk propagandist´ is not good enough.
You have to prove and show how you come to the conclusion.
If you can NOT, you open the gates of slur here such as:
´I have a feeling that you are this´
´I have a feeling that you are that´
I don´t have to proove anything. Go read your posts. They give me that feeling. That´s it.
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22. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 06:51 pm |
I have a feeling that this thread will be locked! But I have no proof.
haha..
I have the same feeling too
and ´i have a feeling that you are a BED amerikan´
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23. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 06:55 pm |
I don´t have to proove anything. Go read your posts. They give me that feeling. That´s it.
I would like to think that I am a gentelman.
So, I am not going to give a reply to ´I dont need to prove anything but i say whatever I feel like´ type of posts.
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24. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 06:58 pm |
I would like to think that I am a gentelman.
So, I am not going to give a reply to ´I dont need to prove anything but i say whatever I feel like´ type of posts.
Whatever...
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25. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 07:12 pm |
Agreed..
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26. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 08:09 pm |
I have a feeling that this thread will be locked! But I have no proof.
Hard to proove something we can´t even follow. Maybe that´s a good thing...
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27. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 11:30 pm |
Nationalism is what is preventing this ongoing crisis from being solved. It doesn´t belong in this century.
Lets not mix racism with nationalism
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28. |
14 Oct 2008 Tue 11:49 pm |
Lets not mix racism with nationalism
But why not - the two seem to often be linked
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29. |
15 Oct 2008 Wed 02:25 am |
I have read this article before, very well written indeed and can be understood by public clearly, but these had been said/written maybe thousands of time through the period of AKP, so it will gather no way to solution if public do not awake and do not sell their votes. Btw the biggest part of this problem is caused by politicians rather than army.
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30. |
15 Oct 2008 Wed 03:38 am |
But why not - the two seem to often be linked
if you assume they are so closely linked, we could also argue that Washington was a racist, the French revolution was a racist movement, and all the nation states in Europe are racist.
nationalism was in fact a very progressive movement in the 19th and 20th centuries.
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31. |
15 Oct 2008 Wed 11:27 am |
if you assume they are so closely linked, we could also argue that Washington was a racist, the French revolution was a racist movement, and all the nation states in Europe are racist.
nationalism was in fact a very progressive movement in the 19th and 20th centuries.
Mixing the apples and pears again..
Racism and nationalism have always been closely linked as almost all racists call themselves nationalists.
But I agree with you about nationalism was "a progressive movement in the 19th and 20th centuries".
But NOT anymore!!
In this century, "nationalism is one of the biggest factors which contributes to division of the nations"..
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32. |
15 Oct 2008 Wed 03:14 pm |
Mixing the apples and pears again..
Racism and nationalism have always been closely linked as almost all racists call themselves nationalists.
But I agree with you about nationalism was "a progressive movement in the 19th and 20th centuries".
But NOT anymore!!
In this century, "nationalism is one of the biggest factors which contributes to division of the nations"..
You yourself say here that, racist call themselves nationalists, but this doesnt mean that nationalism is bad itself, everybody who pays taxes also nationalist, because you pay that tax for your country to give you better opportunities...
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33. |
15 Oct 2008 Wed 03:45 pm |
You yourself say here that, racist call themselves nationalists, but this doesnt mean that nationalism is bad itself, everybody who pays taxes also nationalist, because you pay that tax for your country to give you better opportunities...
I thought that paying taxes and other means of doing your duties to the country was patriotism, not nationalism...
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34. |
15 Oct 2008 Wed 04:26 pm |
I thought that paying taxes and other means of doing your duties to the country was patriotism, not nationalism...
can you explain a little more? you have to answer this together with the question why do you pay tax?
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35. |
15 Oct 2008 Wed 06:24 pm |
if you assume they are so closely linked, we could also argue that Washington was a racist, the French revolution was a racist movement, and all the nation states in Europe are racist.
I agree. Why do you think being defensive adds to the argument? Safety in numbers?
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