recently we have had some visitors from Turkey,all involved in preparing visit as it was international consisting of 9 nationalities forgot about halal things,anyway birdy was on a duty and the visit passed smoothly as far as food was concerned.And what a pleasure was to see relief on some face´s about stuff to eat)))

btw

i have more sisters and brothers now,as most of them did not speak English I was made to babysit them)))ehhh,family is growing!!!

 is this a pain in your neck???FYI Yilgun loves me,nobody but yilgun sends me to bed in better style when I sit up late  and it is  a kind of mutual love,soooooooooo mind your own business Lemon!!!!

no, you mind your own business and cut down your sarcastic comments on yilguns innocent and cute threads.

I think we are talking about KSA which is ruled by sheria. Yes, right, Saudis are people too but they strictly follow the hadith rather than Quran, so one cannot fins any shop selling alcoholic drinks since its forbidden by their religous leader, if in any hadith tells eating seafood rather than other than fish is haram, be sure that it will be impossible to see such restaurants in thier country. In other words "eating sea food other than fish" statement is not confirmed by hadiths as well, no need to mention Quran.

As for alcohol, Quran nevers says it is haram, but it says alcoholic drinks are the work of satan, and i think it is enough to be far away from.  "haram"s are the ones which are harmful to the health and the ones that blur your mind basically.  And this is the verse you tried to mention"And of the fruits of date-palm, and grapes from which you make intoxicants, as well as wholesome sustenace. In this indeed is a message for those who use their sense."

 Awwwwwww,sensitive lemon!!!what a change!!!you really show heart from time to time....anyway yilgun does not consider my comments sarcastic as I am his only one sister...soooooooooooo .....keep away from me and him)))

I like chili con cooked by an American friend using pork but I am not particularly crazy for that kind of meat. Obviously, I am not used to eating it. Since all the foods available in this country must comform with the Islamic principles, I can say I am quite happy to eat what is available to me.

Alcohol is another such matter that I differ quite drastically from the general Islamic path. I drink a bottle of wine unless of course I am sharing it with others. I am perfectly accustomed to this routine. Once or twice a week, this much alcohol does not do any visible harm to me. I don´t even get drunk. I stay perfectly normal; just a bit happier and relaxed maybe.

Of all the items on the halal list the one that categorizes illegally and unethically obtained food as haram must be the most meaningful restriction. Though it necessitates superhuman ethics.

Helal and haram ara not limited to our diet only. Our relations with the other sex  among other things must comform too. For example, a woman who is not related or married to a man is haram to that man. It is not just hanging out together which is prohibited, they can´t even look at each other. If they do, they commit adultery. In Islam adultery does not necessarily have to be physical. You may desire a person but you must control your feelings and ask for forgiveness if that person is not halal to you. If you can´t help looking at the other sex than you commit adultery. In Islam, intentions are as important as real actions...

My goodness Vineyards, you seem to have been exposed to a particularly restrictive school of Islam.  Adultery (as defined to be punishable according to Sharia...even in Saudi) must be willful (IOW, not rape)organ to organ penetration. It has to be witnessed by 4 rightous witnesses, or you can testify against yourself, and as suicide is forbidden, you can´t do that....it is also haram.

The witnesses must actually see organ to organ penetration....Even the Saudi version of Sharia upholds this definition. The adultery you speak of is a very fine definition, like that of the Jimmy Carter playboy interview, where he said...."Christ said, I tell you that anyone who looks on a woman with lust has in his heart already committed adultery. I´ve looked on a lot of women with lust. I´ve committed adultery in my heart many times..."  What I am saying is the definition you give is more of a mystic interpretation, not a "regular folk" version.

I think if you are purposly looking with lust at another (male or female)...seeking them out with prurient purposes with your eyes and mind, this is of course, forbidden, but it´s not under the legal definition of adultery.

There were other things you mentioned in this thread, I´ll address them later......

It IS very difficult In Holland we have halal butchers. For a lot of muslim´s getting a piece of beef from the normal butcher isn´t enough, it has to have a halal-stamp on it. This makes it SO difficult to go out and eat with my friends. I have to find either a halal-restaurant or a restaurant with a good vegetarian dish. And when I cook at home my choices are also limited when my friends come to visit, since one is hindu and the other one is a strict muslim.

Lucky for me, my Turkish friends don´t seem to mind much. They have the rule "if it´s not pork, it´s halal" in general They state that Dutch butchers are very clean and that´s the most important thing for them.

BM - I live in a small town in Ireland so getting halal food can be a problem, I´m sure it´s easier in Dublin, Cork or Galway though. There is a halal shop here but I´ve never been there. I don´t think they sell meat there, though...

How about a Kosher shop?  Seeing as Europe is more used to dealing with Jewish communities, it´s easier to find kosher meat.  From what I´ve been taught, Muslims can eat meat slaughtered by the Kosher method as well.  Have you eaten halal meat? A interesting experiment is to do a blind test to see if you can taste the difference.  Most can.  I´ve been told there is are n enzyme that goes into the blood when the animal is slaughtered in a not halal or kosher way. 

FWIW most kosher meat can not be from thigh meat, as it has to avod the sciatic nerve.  Because it is a labor intensive process to remove the sciatic nerve, it´s not practiced outside of Israel.  Halal meat does not have that added restriction. Halal and Kosher

Here is more information regarding Halal foods.  It may seem complicated to some who do not adhere to these rules, but to those who do, it becomes second nature.  The thought of possibly eating contaminated food is too abhorant to consider alternatives.

"In 1978, a study incorporating EEG (electroencephalograph) with electrodes surgically implanted on the skull of 17 sheep and 15 calves, and conducted by Wilhelm Schulze et al. at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany concluded that "the slaughter in the form of a ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions" (of the animals) and that "For sheep, there were in part severe reactions both in bloodletting cut and the pain stimuli" when Captive Bolt Stunning (CBS) was used.   This study is cited by the German Constitutional Court in its permitting of dhabiha slaughtering"

Additionaly, I´d like to point out the fact that the Captive Bolt Stunning method was found to cause brain matter to be dispersed throughout other parts of the animal´s body.  Brain matter is the part that can cause JCB or human mad cow disease.  

"If humans eat diseased tissue from cattle, they may develop the human form of mad cow disease known as variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) or new variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (nvCJD). The disease was named after the researchers who first identified the classic condition. Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in its classic form usually occurs in older people through an inherited tendency of the brain to change or spontaneously for no apparent reason. The type identified as occurring from eating diseased cattle occurs in younger people and has atypical clinical features, with prominent psychiatric or sensory symptoms at the time of clinical presentation and delayed onset of neurologic abnormalities. These neurologic abnormalities include ataxia within weeks or months, dementia (loss of memory and confusion) and myoclonus late in the illness, a duration of illness of at least 6 months, and a diffusely abnormal non-diagnostic electroencephalogram.  

The transmissible agents that cause the disease in both cattle and humans are “prions.” Prions are not like bacteria or viruses that cause other infectious diseases; rather, they are infectious proteins. 

Diseased prions are found in the brain, spinal cord, eye (in the retina), and other tissues of the nervous system of affected animals or humans. In addition, prions can be found outside the nervous system including the bone marrow, spleen, and lymph nodes. Low levels of prions may also be found in blood.

Prions are highly resistant to heat, ultraviolet light, radiation, and disinfectants that normally kill viruses and bacteria. Prions may infect humans who eat meat from infected cattle. Even cooking meat infected with BSE does not eliminate the prions or the risk.

Once infection occurs, there is a long incubation period that typically lasts several years. When prions reach a critical level in the brain, symptoms such as depression, difficulty walking, and dementia occur and progress rapidly. "

As for pigs....

Pigs harbour a range of parasites and diseases that can be transmitted to humans. These include trichinosis, Taenia solium, cysticercosis, and brucellosis. Pigs are also known to host large concentrations of parasitic ascarid worms in their digestive tract.   The presence of these diseases and parasites is one of the reasons why pork meat should always be well cooked or cured before eating. Some religious groups that consider pork unclean refer to these issues as support for their views.

Pigs are susceptible to bronchitis and pneumonia. They have small lungs in relation to body size; for this reason, bronchitis or pneumonia can kill a pig quickly.  There is concern that pigs may allow animal viruses such as influenza or Ebola Reston to infect humans more easily. Some strains of influenza are endemic in pigs (see Swine influenza), and pigs also can acquire human influenza."

Given this information, I see no reason for consuming this product....better safe than sorry...What is the saying..."you are what you eat" ?

There is also debate regarding weather the slaughter is halal or kosher if it was not done by hand one by one, seeing as some places started using recordings and mechanical methods to do the slaughter.  Now many halal butchers have a sign up saying the meat they sell is not of that type.  It´s interesting how new technology is brought into tradtional methods.

Alameda - no, nothing Kosher here as well. Actually the number or traditional Jews (in terms of clothes) is gretly smaller (if present at all) to the number of burqa/scarf wearing Muslims. I know clothes doesn´t mean they eat Kosher/Halal food or not, just an observation.

It would be interesting to see the difference between halal/haram meat. Too bad I hardly ever eat beef so probably I wouldn´t make a good tester anyway

"You are what you eat" - probably means your food shows what region you come for, ie people at the seaside are more likely to have a better choice of eating seafood and fish then those from deserts Besides, pigs are neither dirty not stupid. I´m not going to argue whether it´s better to eat pork or beef, as for me it´s merely a matter of taste. And no, nobody will ever convince me that mussels are good