"When you think that you can slip between countries and cultures with ease, never fully belonging but always at home, then you have become a seasoned world traveler. People often ask me which country I like best, Turkey or America. I usually answer both have positive and negative points.

Another question that I am always asked is what life is like for Muslim women. Sometimes the Western press portrays situations in a way that makes it appear like all Muslim women are suffering. Often Western women are of the opinion that all Muslim women need to be liberated.

It is true that in some ways Muslim women’s lives are alien to Westerners, and yet in many ways, we have similarly felt needs and share the same universal human nature.

During the time that I have lived here in Turkey, I have learned of the joys and sorrows, hopes and daily routines of a cast of characters: my neighbors, my work colleagues, my friends.

Position has an important role in society here. For instance, family ties are important. I have some friends who are related to the Cebesoy family. Also, the position of your husband determines your status in society.

Being a foreigner, you cross social lines that Turks may not. During my time here, I have become acquainted with women who are members of the privileged class and those who are not. One friend’s father owned a carpet shop and another friend was the wife of the CEO of a large company and another was a widowed housewife with one daughter.

In eastern Turkey, I made friends with a family who were of Turkic nomadic origin while conducting official research on the demographic patterns of Afghans of Turkic origin. The husband had three wives. Although polygamy is not legally allowed in Turkey, these refugees were granted permission to bring their wives and children with them when they moved to Turkey as refugees from Pakistan in the 1980s. This husband’s three wives have a special status in society because their husband was the head of a clan.

Most educated women in Turkey have a status in their own right, such as those who are professionals working as CEOs, principals of schools, educationalists, medical personnel, artists, etc.

Social life is rapidly changing in urban areas as children are being sent to private schools across town, and they are making friends at school. Private school programs are demanding in terms of time. Often, children do not know who their neighbors are because they are not home that much. However, years ago in Turkey -- and still true to some degree in villages today -- boys and girls from the same neighborhood all played together until age 11 or 12.

Of course, in a more traditional Muslim community, you may find that women prefer to marry men within their own circle or tribe. In more remote areas or very conservative Muslim backgrounds, there are still some situations where arranged marriages occur, but it is not so common. Due to traditional Islamic culture in which a man and woman are not supposed to meet face to face until their wedding day, marrying a man from her own tribe (or of your parents’ choice) gave a woman a backdoor way of selecting her own husband. After all, when you have grown up playing together for years, you get to know each other well. Sometimes, the women had specific men from among their old set of playmates that they had picked out as a hoped-for future spouse, an arrangement which could then be made by the woman’s family.

When Western foreigners hear that couples have arranged marriages, they strongly dislike the interference of parents in the matter, but actually, foreigners do not realize that not all arranged marriages are bad.

As an anthropologist, I have had the opportunity to travel in many countries in Central Asia and the Middle East and have recognized that these preconceptions work both ways. Just as my friends in the US feel my female Muslim friends live their lives surrounded by prohibitions, my Muslim friends seem equally prejudiced about my homeland. It is very hard to overcome cultural barriers.

Turkey is rapidly changing. Given the major ways in which Turkish culture and politics have changed over the past 30 years, it will be fascinating to observe how changes play out at the ground level, in both villages and urban areas.

I love slipping between cultures and countries with more and more ease, never fully belonging but always at home".

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=172011

I can´t agree with the statement that arranged marriages sometimes are not so bad. Usually in communities with arranged marriages divorces are rare. I may agree that women accept their situation and make the best of it as they have no choice as they´re taught to think that´s the way things should be. Of course not all arranged husbands are abusive, I´m sure some are nice guys but if you don´t marry for love but for duty it´s hard to speak of successful marriage

I disagree with you DD...... I don´t know how many "arranged marriages" you have observed at close range, but from my observation, most actually work out pretty well.  I think you are thinking of a model where the couple don´t know each other, and are being forced to wed each other (yes, males also can be forced to wed someone against their will). Nobody should be forced to marry anyone.

They can be quite successful.  Many I know of the couple knew each other from school and liked each other.  In many cultures marriageable youth do not date, thus the opportunities to "fall in love" are minimized.  That is not really such a bad idea.  What is looked for is compatibility, someone who is on the same road.  Familial compatibility is important, as the prospective spouses are going to be part of the famlies.

In Turkey, after a suitable partner has been found and both agree, often they date (not alone and unsupervised) for a while to see if they get along. If all goes well, they get married.

I can´t say marriage is doing so well in the "West". It seems many women are choosing to have children with out a husband, many couples live together for years without making a committment, and often times the split up...and go on the search for a mate again.

If the object is to find a life mate, having help finding a suitable one isn´t that bad an idea.  In fact what with the proliferation of services to hook up compatable partners, it´s looking like we are comeing full circle.

People don´t always fall in love with compatible persons.  I refer to the "bad boy/girl" syndrome many "Westerners"  fall into.  It´s actually not that hard to fall in love with someone, particularly when intimacy has been shared.  We certainly see it here a lot.

Merhaba

may the Western women here tell us why do they think Muslim women are suffering, and why should they be liberated?

thanks in advance

Alameda, that´s exactly what I meant - the fact that they´re doing pretty well doesn´t mean they´re successful marriages. The beauty of marriage is living your life with somebody you chose and who chose you without being traded. If you believe that marriage is just a transaction - he´ll provide for me and I´ll open my legs in exchange every now and then, then you´ve got a point. Women (and men) who want to give up one of the most important decisions in their lives will surely benefit from that exchange. To me, however, it seems more like prostitution or slavery. How can parents make that decision for anybody? That would mean parents do not make mistakes or that they treat their children as commodity. And we all know that parents and children not always agree on what´s best for either.

It is true that in the western world there are many unsuccessful marriages and many end with a divorce. But it´s human right to make mistakes, isn´t it? And I´ll still abide by my opinion that in comunities where arranged marriages apply, people will less likely resort to divorce NOT because they are happy with what they have but simply because it´s against the social convenance. Hence it´s hard to judge how successful the marriages are just by comparing divorce rate.

It´s not surprise I will not agree with your opinion about sharing intimacy I believe that sexual compatibility is crucial for a relationship to pull off. Otherwise one side will always have to subject to other person´s needs (or lack of them). Just think about it - you´re choosing a person for the next, say, 50 years. How can you do it without gathering as much data as possible? Would you buy a car without a test drive? A cat in a bag? Even employing staff you usually take them for a trial period first. I think the dating process is in a way a trial, not only for sex, but it lets you observe the person in different situations, their interactions with other people, their moods. Somehow it´s hard for me to imagine to marry a stranger, a person I might not like or agree with and having sex with them right after the wedding and on the nights to follow. That makes me shriek even though I have a westerner´s attitude to intimacy

Familiarity, compatibility do not guarantee a successful marriage either, were it so, a simple survey would judge two people´s prospective success. Unfortunately human relations escape standards and hardly ever are predictable. Moreover, people change, their goals, perspectives and demands change all life long. Sometimes a person you married and was happy with in the innitial years, no longer gives you happiness after some time. Of course you may still decide to be with him/her and quench your desire to change things believing that second-best is good enough but it doesn´t mean you´re happy. If you´re taught that divorce is wrong, you will last in your marriage. I´m not talking about extremes here - domestic violence, unfaithfulness but about the majority of relationships that are together and are neither unhappy nor fully satisfied. Countries that promote freedom of choice help those people live their life basing on choice, not social obedience. If you stay with your partner, it´s because you want to, not because you feel obligued to.

The other situation you talk about - the one when parents only suggest a partner, doesn´t raise my objections. As long as both sides are able to reject that partner then it´s no different than meeting your future wife/husband anywhere else. A suggestion is not obligation, plus the young ones do date so, after all, it´s their choice, not their parents´

Merhaba

I can´t speak for all western women, just for myself. Some things we hear about are not only unacceptable for us but also scary. Like the issue of arranged marriages discussed above or living in a patriarchal society where women have to ask men from their families to allow them to go to school or work. We can´t understand why women can´t go out on their own, drive cars or use a computer. We believe rape is a crime that men are responsible for and it´s not women that should be punished for it. We think women should have the same rights as men because they´re no different intellectually. All choices they make should be their choices because they can think for themselves.

 Of course one should be with one they want to be with....but what we want is not always the best for us.....Maybe a little help with our focus is a good idea?...but I´m confused by your saying "traded"? What do you mean traded? Who is talking about trades? Unless, off course, we consider the fact that life consists of thousands of trades....this for that...you are trading being single for being married.

That is a rather gross way to look at marriage. Marriage has many aspects, companionship, shareing. During your marriage, you "should" grow together. A good marriage takes cultivation, it just "doesn´t happen". Have you ever had a garden? If you have noticed you have to care for the plants. Very few gardens flourish with neglect.

Prostitution, slavery???

Yes, I wanted to smoke when I was 13, my parents did not want me to smoke. When I think of all the things I wanted as a teenager or young adult, it makes me shudder.  How do you see parents treating their children as a commodity?  In Islam, it is forbidden for parents to sell their children. Girls do get receive a dowery, but it´s hers, not her parents.

A trial run?....and if that doesn´t work, you take another trial run?  How many trial runs before it´s something else?  Who is talking about commodities here? So you think you should try it out first. Of course, that´s unthinkable for many. Given the rise in STDs in the last 30 years, maybe these try outs are not such a great idea?   Also, sexual thrills can, and very often do,  wear out.  There was a song, the Thrill is Gone....How many here have we read where the sex was great, but they were totaly incompatable in every other respect.

What is happiness? I think people confuse romantic love with marital love. Romantic love is a different type of love. Marital love developes during one´s lifetime. It should develop nicely with mutual respect and compassion.

All cultures teach divorce is wrong. After all, haven´t you made a committment to stay with someone and make a life together? You have made a vow to stay with someone, shouldn´t one feel bad about breaking one´s vow? Who feels fully satisfied? How many are happy they don´t have a toothache? When they do have one they complaign a LOT. Most are not happy with their lot. Does not much of one´s happiness depend on appreciation of the gifts one has, instead of always looking at the grass on the other side of the fence?

If course one should be able to reject a potential spouse. The difference is actually quite large. You are wedding someone who gets along with your family, and has met with their approval and blessings.  You have included your parents in your most important decision.

From what I´ve read, girls situation is quite dire in some situations, particularly in India, where the bride is expected to pay for her husband.  In Greece, the bride is supposed to give bring a dowry with her.

Dowry

#1 I think your definition of arranged is inaccurate.  Here is my definition (yes I know your English is great, I´m just trying to clarify what I mean. )

#2  Marriage based on romantic love rarely lasts. It is rare  romantic love can survive the harsh light of reality.  Can you imagine Romer with halitosis in the morning, Julliet with a bad hair day, smelly socks in the laundry.....Love that is cultivated has a better chance for survival.  Of course anyone getting married should be very attracted to the potential partner...

# 3 I would call that awful! It would be rape.....but arranged marriage is not that. refer to definition of arranged above. I am totaly against any forced marriage and think it should be stopped!

#5  Some mistakes are irreparable. I´m glad there was someone around to prevent my making those mistakes...although I made a lot of mistakes too.

 #5 I would be very hard to ever love somene assigned to one...but on the other hand...some help in finding a mate is useful. A rational eye so to speak.  When one is "crazy for someone" their sight is often foggy. Then,  what is love? Is it being thrilled at the touch of someone, or is it something that grows and deepens? Romantic love is very much illusory. When subjected to the harsh light of reality, it often does not last. Romeo with halitosis? There are many different types of love......

#5 Canli was correct. Forced marriage is very much against Islamic law. I realize it happens in some Islamic societies, it also happens in a lot of others as well. We just had the case of the Fundimentalist Later Day Saints marrying off 14 year old girls to much older men, against their will....so you see...it is a sad practice that happens in way too many societies.

#6  It has been found that a multitude of sexual partners in a large contributing factor in STDs.  Even if we just look at the emotional turmoil, isn´t that something to really consider? Stress isn´t good for health either.

Ok, I think we´re finally agreeing here. True, I was referring more to forced marriages than arranged ones. If you google Wikipaedia you´ll see that arranged marriages are arranged by parents, match-makers or matrimonial offices. No problems here, as long as it is the bride and groom who have the last word at the end of the day, it doesn´t matter how they get to know each other.

What I cannot understand is why the notion of romantic love is discredited by you. I am not a very romantic person myself but most people I know married because they fell in love with each other. Romeo and Juliette were 13 or thereabouts so no wonder they were not emotionally mature to have a relationship. Plus, it´s fiction Let´s get back to reality, I´ll give you an example of how things are with my friends. I´m 30 and I there were 28 people in my class in secondary school (we don´t have classes to pick individually, we choose a group and have all classes together for 4 years). So, there were 28 people, 20 f and 8 m. The statistics are as follows:

2f live in a long-term relationship

1m and 2 f are single

1m is divorced

the rest are happily married

2 have 2 children

6 have 1 child

All those who got married married out of love. It seems it´s not such a bad base after all. I think you´re mixing up naivety with love. Love comes in phases, first it overwhelms you but you don´t make lifetime decisions at that phase. Once it becomes not so wild you may consider marriage. Most of the people I know have similar attitude towards marriage - love, getting to know each other for some time and then marry if at all. I doubt that what you choose is worse than what your parents choose. I wouldn´t trust my parents to buy me clothes, let alone choose a husband

ha... )))))))))))))))))))))))

we just heard something from someone that you suffer greatly... Usually we do not have orcible arguments. We know almost nothing about your daily life, your rights, obligations etc. Western women differ as well in fact. I completely agree with Daydreammer and her answer. Though, all these things inhere to majority of countries. We all came from one background, some are closer to the source, some farther. Thus, some in the West ( ) see more of the same in their countries, some - less. Some have gotten so many new rights and possibilities that are lost and do not know how and what for to use them. Too much freedom and no skills to use.

though, your question is WHY. Because we learnt our well-being, prosperity, happiness by comparing to others (mislim in this case). Comparison is widely used tool to make things more clear (use of visual methods). We got some information from different sources, felt happy that we were all set (before we could have opposite opinion). Later we adopted that as Truth (and even do not try to say that you are not suffering - we won´t believe, because we know better. why better? because we live in better organized world on the top of social evolution and our vision is better, wider and clearer). Just several had enough interest, will and patience to study the subject more and see the reality. But there are few such people, and we do not hear their voices and still believe the info of the age of Crusades.

We are already formed by different rules of living and we really can not understand where the difference between one covering and not covering her head is. People are always afraid of what they do not understand. So, it is easier to say that your style is not right and of course you are suffering, because we all tend to freedom.

happy marriage is matter of luck. You may marry in a month and live long and happy life together in mutual respect. You may marry after years of knowing each other and feel urge to divorce after month of being married.
We choose our friends (we understand that they are not for other 50 years to come) and we are mistaken in people.
We hire people (we understand that we can fire them at last), we study resumes and arrange interviews, and we still do our mistakes hiring wrong workers. By the way successful companies in the field of direct marketing do not let people switch groups and managers. They suppose we can build good and productive relations with everyone and anyone. We should just want it.
Studies shows that those who had more "trials" ( partners) would have less chances to find right one and stop. Trials are not guarantee of knowing other sex better, finding better person, better understanding of yourself. Maybe because you cannot stay tuned to other person deep enough.
I know only one person whose marriage was arranged and her marriage was happy. Have you ever noticed that when getting older we understand our parents better? Maybe because they already were there, where we were just going to? They knew the result? Of course we all need our own mistakes, decisions and lessons in this life. Though, I am very happy that i did not do everything i wanted while being 15. And it is part of me now. No matter what we did or did not, all those became part of us.
Romeo was the MAN at his age. People died at their 40th then. He was grown already, both physically and emotionally - it was part of evolution. Since that world became more complicated and nowadays kids of 13 are still kids. They are definitely taller, differently clever and developed, but are kids. Somehow we think that everything was so nice and clean in the past centuries. I am more than sure that his socks had some odor (if he ever had socks...), that he did not use perspirants and shave his armpits, that he ran to kiss Juliette after sweaty fights and thought of shower never crossed his mind.
Remember Barbara Streisand? We feel disappointment in real love because when we kiss each other there is no romantic music at backyard... Remember Natasha Rostova in War and Peace? She was touchingly romantic and then married to good deep thoughtful man. Who she became? Just FEMALE who was about making enough stocks for winter, watching servants etc ....
There are a lot of examples to support any point of view I think that there is enough place and space for every thing on this Earth. If it becomes useless evolution will wipe it off with time. Yes, some of us will have to fight to speed the process up, but maybe we were born just for it. If arranged marriage is getting outdated we will see it in the future. Though, as i may see it takes place in all countries – just the ownership prerogative of this subject was given to East

Very interesting message...but what on earth happened with all that code in your message?

I have seen people who have lived together for seven years or more in uncommitted relationships,  and divorced in one or two years after making committed relationships.

I wonder if having a lot of test drives doesn´t make it easier for to move on to another test drive...to find the "perfect ONE"? It seems the First World cultures are finding makiing committments more difficult.

1. I hope i solved the problem with coding - greatly appreciate the help of Lady In Red!

2. sharing room with some guy won´t teach you how to build committed relationships. people often live like room mates. they discuss things, have lunch together, make love, maybe even have kids, but still are room mates. I think we will always be lonely in the world, at the certain extent we (if lucky) have our best half, but no matter how crowded room is one´s death will still come to him/her only

living like room-mates does not require knowing ins and outs of person on other part of bed. It is not test drives. at first we drive using head, then - union of memory and customs. It saves our time and energy. We do not think the how we drive - we just drive. We may learn some new driving skills, but major ability will stay. You can not forget riding the bike. it is your skill - you got it once and forgot, it is already in you. Nevertjeless, advantage in somethig turns to disadvantage in other field. Customs, that save our time and energy, steal the freshness of perception. in relations it leads to the death of the latter.

relations are different. you are looking. in advance you know that new try will come. you are looking for the best half, your ideal candidate, but with every new try you are farther from it. You tried everything at last, got all possible experience and often fail to see the beauty of creature. it becomes more technical: you are looking for smth new (different from your previous experience: if not why you left then?!), and for all characters you liked in previous one (you were with some people for some time for smth, so there were some good sides in each of them). THough what is your chance due to theory of probability? ... answer is obvious i guess. Like drugs - the longer you get, the more you need.

you may be madly in love with man, wake in the middle of the night to thank God for putting this man on your path. this particular man with his particular  heart, mind, soul, spirit and body. To kiss him every morning and to wish sweet dreams, to talk on phone for hours despite seeing him every morning, discussing days every evening and making love every night.

and then his one single phrase will ruin everything... it will crush your own small happy world into little pieces - impossible to collect and no wish to put together.  He is still good person and you are nice, but the finest china of your greatest love ever is broken irretrievably.

you may consider sudden slipping down of wedding ring as tragedy taking you into hysteric and causing heart attack. ANd the next day you meet someone and understand that everything before this moment was not important. and taking off that ring is already so natural...

not all hearts know what the fire of Big True Love is. Some of them are quiet. They choose the partner by reputation, knowing family background and other criteria, which seem natural to them. And in several years will find themselves in deep strong love with someone who looked rather nice arrangement at he beginning.

Most of us cannot know what will be the best and only basement for our happy marriage. We may just ask God to give us wisdom before saying YES to say it to right person, and to ask God to help us to become right person for one whom we heard YES in reply.

wow, what a hot discussion, and very interesting  by the way.

Cultural boundaries and abstacles will exist forever, and may it be always, cause this is exactly that thing which makes each culture, nation, individual different from the rest and attractive.

I am kazakh, in our culture position of woman is very high, it was through all centuries, from the time we were indicated ask one of the Saks tribes. Girls are treated and equaled to flowers, and parents must give them all the best. Usually, young girls should know all about household, but when they live with parents, as a rule parents do everything for them, even regarding household, because they are supposed to have their own family, and will have enough time to deal with this stuff. But some people so fanatic, that understand everything directly, and then appears such opinion as woman should not go somewhere alone and etc.

I must say, that Islam had and have a great influencce upon our culture and history.

one of the must for all Muslims is to educate girls/dauhters. When i was little I could not understand why my parents, in particularly my father pushed us to study hard so much. he invested to our education all that he earned, he never refused for our suggestion to attend some courses, he always supported us.

In my opinion, Islam and attitude of muslims towards woman is different in various cultures and countries. Probably, I am wrong, but I guess that the rest of muslims say that they are muslims, and use islam as cover, but in fact they did not touch the core of Islam, they behave, act and live by the Isalmic rules taught by wrong people.

guess if we look at many cultures worldwide we would see similarity. Theory of all (i will use "all" taking into account that there could be exceptions of course) will cherish women as they and only they could deliver children. Men cannot, and by the way in some thousands years men will disappear. Y chromosome is losing its genes, 2/3 are already gone. I would prefer to think it is evolution and men are losing what they do not need, but X chromosome is stable.... Maybe that is the reason that nowadays men have more and more characteristics of women. Women are still longing for cool guys, but prefer marriage with tender husbands and caring fathers for future children.

Islam is the youngest among main religions. And we can compare it to a child: hot, easy to get offended, quick to follow first reaction, maximalist. Islam will change with time, it is not what i say, it is universal rule. Christianity was the same. It is also changing. I do not feel big difference between Christianity and Islam, people´s nature is the same everywhere in fact. But I will think twice before saying smth concerning Islam because i can not predict reaction in return. I would not take personal anything about my religion as i would face just believes of other person regarding it. We would have discussion, but i would never feel offended.

Though, I know that in the past my nation would feel offended, that would take anyone different as alien and treat the same. Times just changed, and today we cannot avoid globalization. It will make some universal mixed culture. I do not need to follow the rules of my nation, country and religion only, because it will prevent me from exploring the world, other people etc. I see that other people do not have my rules and live happy lives either. Thus, rules are not important. We may create any and still will find the way to be happy.

let´s get back to theory of cultures. as we know practice is far from theory. All customs and habits came from experience or believes (when we do not understand we create some explanations and here just level of our fantasy matters). So, we can say that everything we do today was expedient action in the past.
Little girl wondered why her mom every year buys big piece of meat, cuts it into two and bakes one  after another in oven for Easter eve. Mom could not give the reason: just her mom did the same. Little girl called her granny and asked the same - why?! Unfortunately, granny could not help either because she learnt it from her mother. Fortunately, the grand-grand-mother of little girl was still alive and could answer. And she said: "Honey, when i was young our family was very big and we all lived together. For Easter we needed really big piece of baked meat, but our oven was tiny and we could not bake the meat at once. Thus, we had to cut it into two and bake one after other.” Little girl lived with her parents only and was the only child, necessity is gone, but custom is still here.

It is applicable to other sides of our everyday life. Women that were deeply involved in everyday routine (washing dishes and clothes, some farmer´s duties, cooking, sewing and so on) and delivering many children (at first there was no condoms, and then many just died) did not need, for example, the right to vote. She should have her head covered or her family would find her hair in bread, she would have to wash hair often because of more dust, she could have sunstroke in wheat filed etc. She would be happy to become third wife in the world were many men died for nothing in numerous wars, or she would be unprotected and financial burden to the family of her parents etc.

Modern world is already different. Women stepped from one level to other. We do not spend time for washing dishes, we can get hair dry in 5 minutes, we choose how many children to have to leave free time for ourselves (we still can sew the clothes, though it is for pleasure, our choice). We can and need to vote because we are among those who create national produce. As woman we can be useful for the world in different and various ways.

This is the demand of today ... Demand creates supply. And maybe one generation is enough to see the new quality.

I do not believe that relationships built without love stand more chances than those built on love. Like I said, ideally two people fall in love, spend some time getting to know each other and then get married. This way seems more reasonable to me than meeting your spouse-to-be at the altar (or wherever the ceremony is)

And there´s still the issue of whether sense of duty is happiness comparable to happiness by choice. If you marry of love and are happy 20 years later it´s great. But if you marry without love and develop a sense of obligation to love your spouse only because you´re expected to then is it really happiness? How can you determine the endurance of relationship if you´re not free to leave either because of social rules or fear of not being able to cope on your own? I strongly feel it is the fact that you are free to leave but yet decide to stay ith your partner that speaks of quality of your relationship.

As for Romeo and Juliette, they might have been considered adults at their times but it doesn´t mean they were emotionally mature. Human biology hasn´t changed that much. Besides, they´re more of an argument against arranged marriages - had they been free to decide whom to marry, the tragedy wouldn´t have taken place. Social expectations killed them. And now tell me parents know what´s best for their child

I think marriage and divorce should be about free personal choices. If you love a person and you feel happy and comfortable to take a step and commit further by marrying them, regardless of their religious background, skin colour or whether it is at an earlier or later stage in your relationship, just go for it. You obviously feel that this is the right choice you´ve made at the right time.

Marriage should be an equal partnership and I believe neither of the partners should have the ´upper hand´ based on their wealth, sex or any other reasons. Words like ´obedience´ and ´owner´ should no longer be part of spousal vocabulary. They should be replaced by words like ´partners´ and ´compromise´ (which, unfortunately, is still unacceptable in some of the cultures or religions).

There are no recipes for a perfect marriage or relationship in any country, culture or religion on Earth, because, as correctly mentioned before, we all are human beings and we all do evolve and change with time. Problems and frictions in couples can some times be worked out, unfortunately, sometimes they can´t.

Divorces were hence invented to provide us with a free personal choice of not staying with the person we no longer love or feel happy with.

And for those who frown upon the word ´divorce´. Maybe this isn´t such a bad idea:

A friend who is a lawyer specialising in divorces once told me that the commitment should be called a ´marriage contract´. It should be made for a definite period of let´s say 5 years, and if we are happy and things are working out between us, we can always have the option to ´extend´. And, if we feel we no longer belong together, we just part (no painful and costly divorce procedures!).

want to know person? Divorce him!

Divorce looks logical and easy while only mind is involved. Though we usually add feelings and offended ego.

One man being in third marriage said that he realized that he could live with his first wife. In many years he realised that everything is the same.

 Boy it that ever true!  It´s amazing what comes out during divorce process.  The once loveing starry eyed lovers get fangs!

I think you carry the same baggage with you where ever you go.

It´s pretty easy to get into a marriage, not really expensive to make it legal....but the divorce process is expensive, even in simple no fault divorce!

An interesting addition to this is the fact that in the US, each state has different laws regarding the institution of marriage.  Some states are "community property" states, some are not.  Even if you get married in a none community property state, if you get your divorce in a community property state, you are subject to the laws of what ever state you are in.

Community property covers any assets gained or increased during a marriage.  That covers even intellectual property.  So if an artist was working on a piece prior to the marriage, and continued during the marriage, it´s community property.  Drivers insurance is also covered.  If one spouse has a bad driving record, the other insurance costs of the other spouse goes up.  It can get quite complicated, and it´s mandated by law. 

Alameda - wow, I had no idea that even divorces are regulated by state laws. So, basically, when you want to divorce you just have to file for it to the state that gives you most benefits?

Ireland tackled the problem of divorces differently, they legalised them a few years ago in the ´90s if I´m not mistaken And nowadays you have a compulsory separation about 4 years before being granted divorce. Now that´s what I call a protective state

In Poland it´s relatively easy to get a divorce if both sides are willing but you wait for the hearing for about a year. So it´s an option only for very patient people

 It´s not that easy.  There are residency requirements in each state that have to be met.  IOW, you can not just move to a state that has more agreeable laws.  Also, either one of the former spouses can sue years later.  All assets have to be listed...and I mean ALL...pots & pans....  Say one spouse had an accident, the other could be sued for damages.  If one owen money, the other is liable.

The last thing anyone should have is an upset ex-spouse!  I´ve helped a few friends with the legal issues in their divorces, that´s how I know.

Merhaba Rosemoon, what a nice name

Welcome to Turkish Class...Your English is very good. You touched on a lot of interesting points. I just wish I had more time to write posts here. 

As I understand it, you are quite right.  Nobody should be denied education in Islam or any religion.  Education is vital for life maintenance.

In fact it was reported that Mohamed (pbuh) said,  "Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China".

it looks like art of divorce surpasses the art of love....

Divorce makes us angry a lot. And it does not matter whether you are millionaire or belong to middle class. Several days ago at 8.30 am i was walking to the bank. Many people around were witnesses of conversation of woman with her former husband. We all knew that she did not want to see his back, front and both sides. She felt deeply insulted because he drove the car and she should use public transport. She was so deeply angry that it could be felt meters away. She looked and felt exhausted and i just could guess what kind of health and mental problems she would face in the future. I should wait another 10 minutes to enter the bank and she was waiting for her ex. I saw that car..... Shkoda Fabia ... i would call it women´s car: small and tiny

I think situation can be changed if we change the attitude to partner. Contracts and laws do not have that power to leave us friends after everything is over. Or maybe I am too idealistic...

Don’t look at what was stated, bit what was done i do not want to say that Islam just declares while others do... All religions declare a lot of nice things
I heard two things: Islam is kind and well-disposed religion, and Islam authorize jihad. Christians says that Old and New Testaments are given by God, though if we read we will feel that there are two different Gods. Or at least that one God changed His mind drastically. And i found the source. The name of book is Big Paradox or two styles of the Koran. Author is Muslim, and he should hide from "gentle" readers for long time when book was published. I found parallels there. The Koran has two periods based on where suras were written: Mekka and Medina, content of which could be compared to Testaments. Circumstances of private life influenced religion. At last Crusades were authorized as well

thanks, for your appreciation.

seems the theme on arranged and forced marriages is endless.

recently we had the same topic with our guests from abroad.

guess i failed to explain them the difference of arranged and forced marriages.

i advise them to read articles in this chat.

see you.