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Denial versus freedom of speech
(88 Messages in 9 pages - View all)
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20.       alameda
3499 posts
 31 May 2009 Sun 11:59 pm

 

Quoting Trudy

When Muslim/Turkish/Arab people mock about Christians I´ve never heard of groups in western countries demonstrating in the streets, burning flags, attacking embassies etc. People in the ´West´ shrug and think ´they´re mad´. Is it really a question of long toes?

 

As I said previously, it was in very poor taste.  If the objective was to provoke distrust & hate,  it was a job well done.  It could just be that in "Western" cultures there is little passion regarding religion.   IOW....they don´t care.  In any analysis of the situation, it was a very provocative action.

 

Of course attacking embassies was ridiculous and counterproductive.  However, people do not have to patronize businesses who practice policies they don´t agree with.

 

Again, it was in very poor taste.

 

I was revisiting the controversy and am amazed how much damage those stupid cartoons wrought.

21.       Trudy
7887 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 12:06 am

 

Quoting alameda

 

 

As I said previously, it was in very poor taste.  If the objective was to provoke distrust & hate,  it was a job well done.  It could just be that in "Western" cultures there is little passion regarding religion.   IOW....they don´t care.  In any analysis of the situation, it was a very provocative action.

 

Of course attacking embassies was ridiculous and counterproductive.  However, people do not have to patronize businesses who practice policies they don´t agree with.

 

Again, it was in very poor taste.

 

I was revisiting the controversy and am amazed how much damage those stupid cartoons wrought.

 

In your view is was in very poor taste. I found them slightly funny but absolutely not funny enough for a second look. A matter of different type of humour I suppose.

22.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 12:34 am

 

Quoting alameda

As I said previously, it was in very poor taste.  If the objective was to provoke distrust & hate,  it was a job well done.  It could just be that in "Western" cultures there is little passion regarding religion.   IOW....they don´t care.  In any analysis of the situation, it was a very provocative action.

 

Of course attacking embassies was ridiculous and counterproductive.  However, people do not have to patronize businesses who practice policies they don´t agree with.

 

Again, it was in very poor taste.

 

I was revisiting the controversy and am amazed how much damage those stupid cartoons wrought.

 

You are entitled to have this opinion, just like others are as well to have theirs... I think that it´s really sad that some people do not understand why someone would draw and publish these cartoons. Maybe it´s cultural incompetence? Lack of respect/understanding of other people´s culture? It seems to be something of that sort, which means that they are acting like little children who expect to be taken care of, as opposed to doing their part in the process of gaining mutual understanding/respect..

You can acknowledge that there was harm done - in your opinion - by the cartoons, but it would be desirable if you and poeple who agree with you could understand the other side, instead of objectifying and demonizing them in simplistic ways.

23.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 04:01 am

 

Quoting alameda

 

 

 

 

Could you imagine anyone today doing something similar with a Jewish theme?  I´m quite sure there would have been a strong outcry against such an activity, it probably would have been more sophisticated, due to the fact that the Jewish community has more experience dealing with the issue and "Western" society.

 

 

I don´t have to imagine, Google graphics has thousands of political cartoons, especially not favourable ones in relation to Palestine, with Jews - somehow I haven´t heard of Jews stabbing cartoonists recently.

 

24.       alameda
3499 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 05:50 am

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

I don´t have to imagine, Google graphics has thousands of political cartoons, especially not favourable ones in relation to Palestine, with Jews - somehow I haven´t heard of Jews stabbing cartoonists recently.

 

 

There are many sad and ugly things one can find with a search....it´s in bad taste, ugly and counter productive, no matter who does it.  It is unfortunate so much alienation is cultivated through such tactics. 

 

Much to their credit, the Jewish people have learned how to deal with issues of this type very well.  In general, the Islamic world has not.

 

25.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 10:25 am

Did I miss something? Which cartoonist has recently been stabbed by Muslims?

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

I don´t have to imagine, Google graphics has thousands of political cartoons, especially not favourable ones in relation to Palestine, with Jews - somehow I haven´t heard of Jews stabbing cartoonists recently.

 

 

 

26.       Trudy
7887 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 10:33 am

 

Quoting vineyards

Did I miss something? Which cartoonist has recently been stabbed by Muslims?

 

 

 

 Stabbed not but threatened though - enough. Or doesn´t that count?

27.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 01:49 pm

It surely doesn´t count.  As a matter of fact, we should singularly talk about radical Islamist countries like Iran in this connection. They do not represent the whole Islam. Theirs is more like a politicized religious point of view rather than religion itself. What those artists don´t know is that they are targeting the Iran type of Islam and attacking the whole belief system which is quite ignorant to say the least.

 

Quoting Trudy

 

 

 Stabbed not but threatened though - enough. Or doesn´t that count?

 

 

28.       teaschip
3870 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 03:53 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

Actaully, an "adamant justification" of the Mohamed cartoons does make some reasonable points, I wish some people on the "other" side could see them. I think that the fact that you can´t see the points that those who "justify the cartoons" make, makes you the same kind of person as those who can´t see why some people may be offended by the cartoons.

 

Also, I think that you are stretching this a bit too far... Mohammed was mocked in the cartoons, not "all Muslims", no group was "dehumanized or belittled" in the cartoons. At least that is how the cartoons were seen by the westerners -- mocking religion, mocking how contradictory religious beliefs are -- not mocking people. 

 

Another point I have in mind is that every country/nation has conventions that are relevant in that particular region. Europe makes laws against denying Holocaust, but also they feel free to mock ANY religion.. that´s their culture and that´s what they understand by freedom of speech. Some Arab countries deny the existance of Holocaust, dehumanize the whole West, demolish churches, call for the death of the pope (or whatever that was), and penalize (sometimes by death) any criticism of Islam...

 

So is there a universal law that should guide the rules regarding "freedom of speech"?

 

Totally agree with your points...

 

29.       Trudy
7887 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 04:26 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

It surely doesn´t count.  As a matter of fact, we should singularly talk about radical Islamist countries like Iran in this connection. They do not represent the whole Islam. Theirs is more like a politicized religious point of view rather than religion itself. What those artists don´t know is that they are targeting the Iran type of Islam and attacking the whole belief system which is quite ignorant to say the least.

 

Ah yes. And to avoid the upcoming of that type of Islam and not to disturb those ´friendly´ people all others need to be quiet and shut up? I don´t think so, that would be bowing for dictatorship. Besides, if you think that type of Islam is typical for Iran c.s. you´re wrong and you don´t know your own countrymen. Loads of Islamic immigrants here (we mainly have Turks and Moroccons, around 1,1 million on a population of 16,4) responded ´Iranesque´ with cursing and deathwishes, there are quite some cells here that does not exists of people chatting about the weather and knitting sweaters.... Strange eh, that when silenced (or an attempt to) in ones own country people are suspicious and not very open anymore?

30.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Jun 2009 Mon 04:49 pm

Based on what you wrote we are facing yet another Jewish problem in the heart of Europe and all we need is another Hitler to tame those subhuman critters. 

 

Now that I am wrong and I don´t know those problematic countrymen of mine would you let us know the source of that poll or whatever it is that labeled an entire population and and entire religious community.

 

You never think of those people as humans don´t you? These people are men, women, children and babies just as you are.  Not all of them can be illegal in your country. They were hired by Dutch companies who sought cheap employment for positions looked down upon by your aloof countrymen. People of befitting education and background applied to those jobs and voila, we don´t want to see those toilet cleaners around. You should invest more in the robotic technology to avoid such unwanted consequences.

 

Though it is mainly your problem not ours the 1 in 16 is may look awful to you but it is probably not that way to your entrepreneurs who are playing for high stakes in the international markets. They generate a GNP far exceeding most countries on Earth increasing the standards in the country. These leaves behind some dirty work to be taken care of which could only be offered to those guest arbeiters. Apart from cleaning your toilets they entertain you by enriching your slang vocabulary. In Germany, they call those riff raff as cock roaches or black heads.  God knows how many more words you have in your beloved Dutch.

 

Wherever you look, there is racism undercover...

 

Quoting Trudy

 

 

Ah yes. And to avoid the upcoming of that type of Islam and not to disturb those ´friendly´ people all others need to be quiet and shut up? I don´t think so, that would be bowing for dictatorship. Besides, if you think that type of Islam is typical for Iran c.s. you´re wrong and you don´t know your own countrymen. Loads of Islamic immigrants here (we mainly have Turks and Moroccons, around 1,1 million on a population of 16,4) responded ´Iranesque´ with cursing and deathwishes, there are quite some cells here that does not exists of people chatting about the weather and knitting sweaters.... Strange eh, that when silenced (or an attempt to) in ones own country people are suspicious and not very open anymore?

 

 



Edited (6/1/2009) by vineyards
Edited (6/1/2009) by vineyards

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