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Denial versus freedom of speech
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70. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 10:50 pm |
What´s the difference? Why should I believe in your prophet? I don´t and I can mock about non-existing persons / things.
Yes, you can and you do...but don´t expect doors to be opened for you when you take this attitude.
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71. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 10:53 pm |
What´s the difference? Why should I believe in your prophet? I don´t and I can mock about non-existing persons / things.
(About your question of not agreeing: read some more about the various sorts of Christianity and you´ll see for a large number of people he was the son of God. Don´t mistake it by the Trinity of God, Son and Holy Spirit. That´s something different but I don´t want to explain here & now, way to long and I´m not a teacher of religious topics.)
No, no no Trudy, i have never said you should believe in our prophet...i dont ask you to believe
Ãts your choice
You believe in whatever you want
What i say, that we also have the right to believe in whatever we want without anyone insulting what we believe !
Dear Trudy, we have Christians here as you know, they all dont agree on same thing
Some people i talk with they say yes he is God
Some say no he is son of God
Some say he he the whole 3 !
So its a bit confusing to me i must admit ... they dont agree !
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72. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 10:59 pm |
Canli, you do insult/mock us. You do say bad/hateful things about us... on some of them you are right on some you are wrong. We are also right on some of the things we say about you guys and wrong about some other... We do have the freedom to mock what we want when we are in our country/home...
I think that you just don´t want to accept that you do something wrong..
Actually you are wrong cat...that i accept
Ãt has nothing to do with me/us
You can mock us ...disagree or what ever, we will mock too, disagree or whatever .
But actually, no you cant insult our prophet, we wont accept it...that is different.
We wont insult ÃSA SA because we also believe in him..and he has our respect too...so as you see its a different issue on a different level
And on that level, mocking/insults are not acceptable, and not only by me, but by whole muslims as you saw.
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73. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 11:00 pm |
Acknowledging that Europe is not the only continent in the world, and Europeans also not the only people living on Earth, and they are not the Earth rulers too
And Christians are not only believers who live there
So... by any way, why would us accept that ?!!!
According To CIA World Factbook Major Religion percentages – Christians: 33.32%, Muslims: 21.01%, Hindus: 13.26%, Buddhists: 5.84%
Canli, but in Europe we can mock what we consider appropriate for ourselves. In the Middle East you may not mock Islam, but in Europe we think it is ok to mock ANY religion. We do that "in our homes"!!! If we go to your country, we won´t do that. As you said earlier -- this is what Europe is, if you come here, you have to accept that!
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74. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 11:06 pm |
Actually you are wrong cat...that i accept
Ãt has nothing to do with me/us
You can mock us ...disagree or what ever, we will mock too, disagree or whatever .
But actually, no you cant insult our prophet, we wont accept it...that is different.
We wont insult ÃSA SA because we also believe in him..and he has our respect too...so as you see its a different issue on a different level
And on that level, mocking/insults are not acceptable, and not only by me, but by whole muslims as you saw.
I can see canli how serious this issue is for you, but I wish that you could also understand why in Europe people would not consider it such a serious issue and would be willing to mock religion... This is a matter of mutual understanding. You try to understand where we are coming from and we try to understand wehre you are coming from...
Or, if you don´t want to strive for mutual understanding, you can say that the cartoons were drawn to insult you (Muslims) and we (Europeans) can say that Muslims are violent unreasonable people...
I appreciate the fact that religion is the center of life for some people, they would not stand any jokes about their faith... Can you also try to understand that we find some aspects of religions unreasonable and we find it appropriate to mock that? In other words, can you try not to dehumanize us and instead try to understand us?
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75. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 11:12 pm |
Canli, but in Europe we can mock what we consider appropriate for ourselves. In the Middle East you may not mock Islam, but in Europe we think it is ok to mock ANY religion. We do that "in our homes"!!! If we go to your country, we won´t do that. As you said earlier -- this is what Europe is, if you come here, you have to accept that!
Dear cat...Ãslamic world didnt go to Denmark when this incident happened!
Ãts not about here and there...
Ãts about living in same world whee everyone living at his own home ´country´ respecting the other neighbour.
Take a wider look...
Muslim world who considered a neighbour to the christian world complained about that neighbour attitude and that neighbour ´Christian ´ believe he is living in that world alone, or by at least living and ruling the others so the others SHOULD accept his attitude.
the thing is...that is not the case, Christian world neither live in the world alone nore ruling it .
Ãt is/was a believe since the 19th where Muslim countries were depresed and actually ruled by Western countries and have no voice.
But im afraid that is history and over ...and you should acknowledge having a neighboure !
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76. |
01 Jun 2009 Mon 11:45 pm |
Second, its not logic that you come to a country where in its constitution saying that by law it is an Ãslamic country, then you complains about its system !
So by the same logic, if you come to a European country, in which it is NORMAL to mock religion, you have to accept that this is how things are done there. You have no right to complain!
No im sorry, its not same
When you enter a country, you agree to its terms, to respect its system, and that is the conditions to get into that country or live in it.
But once you did, you are living there equal to eveyone else, and you grant that right by its system too
So i would also have the right to be respected, and that includes my believes.
So YES, i woud have the right to complain, unless the system i agree on says otherwise !
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77. |
02 Jun 2009 Tue 12:19 am |
According to this point of view, Orthodox Christians have now been considered outside of Christian faith.
Go explain this to them. They also don´t believe Jesus is the son of God. For thousands of years and much much earlier than the Dutch, they have been thinking they are the true Christians.
What´s the difference? Why should I believe in your prophet? I don´t and I can mock about non-existing persons / things.
(About your question of not agreeing: read some more about the various sorts of Christianity and you´ll see for a large number of people he was the son of God. Don´t mistake it by the Trinity of God, Son and Holy Spirit. That´s something different but I don´t want to explain here & now, way to long and I´m not a teacher of religious topics.)
Edited (6/2/2009) by vineyards
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78. |
02 Jun 2009 Tue 01:56 am |
According to this point of view, Orthodox Christians have now been considered outside of Christian faith.
Go explain this to them. They also don´t believe Jesus is the son of God. For thousands of years and much much earlier than the Dutch, they have been thinking they are the true Christians.
Reading is not your best quality, is it? I never said ALL Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. I mentioned a variety in Christianity and I said that millions do believe he is the son. You are - again, as usual - jumping to conclusions.
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79. |
02 Jun 2009 Tue 02:00 am |
Reading is not your best quality, is it? I never said ALL Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. I mentioned a variety in Christianity and I said that millions do believe he is the son. You are - again, as usual - jumping to conclusions.
this is what I could never understand as a young adult being brought up in a christian household....how ´we´ under the label of christianity believe in such different versions of one story all depending on what you were born into!! still don´t understand it really!
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80. |
02 Jun 2009 Tue 02:38 am |
What we are missing here in this discussion is understanding of the term respect. When somebody draws a cartoon of a religious prophet with a bomb instead head-gear, it doesn´t mean that person doesn´t respect other people´s right to practise their religion. It is means of commenting on the event that a group calling themselves followers of Islam committed an act of terrorism. The message of the cartoon wasn´t "All Muslims are terrorists or Mohammet was a terrorist" the message was "Some people abuse religion in order to justify their crimes"
Freedom of speech is a complex issue. On the one hand, in Europe it is illegal to discriminate against religions, ethnicity or gender. Of course it´s not true that Europe is a perfect continent and discrimination never happens. But when it does, you can go to court. On the other, you cannot expect people to respect your religion or political views. Everybody´s free to criticize everyone and everything. Yet, the fact that somebody criticises your religion doesn´t deprive you of your right to practise whatever you believe in. In other words, you´ve got the right to believe and practise any religion you choose but you have to accept that other people are going to criticise it if they feel like it. I haven´t heard of one single religion/prophet that has not been mocked. Still, if you are a believer why should you care about it? somebody´s sense of humour (or lack of it) does not influence your right to believe.
Incidents when members of any religious or ethnic group are being attacked should be condemned, they have nothing to do with freedom of speech. But drawing cartoons, telling jokes or writing research papers are means of expressing your beliefs or opinions and you should be free to do that.
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