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Gengiz Khan and Turkic people?
(36 Messages in 4 pages - View all)
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1.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 09:02 pm

I was talking with a lady the other day regarding the origins of the Turkic people. I always thought of Gengiz Khan as a Turk. She said he was a Mongol.  Which he was, but I also thought of him as being Turkic. Can anyone clarify this relationship?

 

Terms like Tartar and Turk are often confusing, as the terms are often used with no actual basis in reality.  I knew some people from Italy who called anyone who was Muslim a Turk. The term Tartar is also often used in a rather loose manner.

 

 

2.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 09:29 pm

 

Quoting alameda

I was talking with a lady the other day regarding the origins of the Turkic people. I always thought of Gengiz Khan as a Turk. She said he was a Mongol.  Which he was, but I also thought of him as being Turkic. Can anyone clarify this relationship?

 

Terms like Tartar and Turk are often confusing, as the terms are often used with no actual basis in reality.  I knew some people from Italy who called anyone who was Muslim a Turk. The term Tartar is also often used in a rather loose manner.

 

 

 

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTitle_47020_10

post no 95

I wrote as :

I never heard of Mongolic Turks..

I think Mongolians belong to yellow race like Chinese but Turks are not..

Actually, Turks being related to Mongolians comes from some of Turks who were trying to cast Turks as a superior race!!

When they were looking at historical heroes of the Turks, they though having Chengiz Khan who was very successful about conquering  and everything, as one of our heroes would be a good idea..

But there was a problem: he was a Mongolian..

So what do our racist do? Make more "fantasies" about Turks: Turks might be related to Mongolians or Chengiz Khan was a Turk  (despite the fact that his entire army was Mongolians)

3.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 09:44 pm

I too am confused about these terms.  It seems everyone I talk to has a different opinion.  My husband seems to think the entire world is Turkic!  Not sure if this makes is clearer or more confusing:

 

Turkic peoples

The world´s Turkic peoples, numbering perhaps 130 million people in all, are the diverse descendants of large groups of tribespeople thought to have originated in Central Asia.

The precise date of their intitial expansion from their early homeland is unknown, but the first known state of the tribe they all became named after was that of the Gokturks (or Kokturks) (Gog = ´Blue´ or ´Celestial´ is dated to the 6th century CE. Huns, whose origins go back to 1200 BCE, are also considered as one of the first Turkic tribes by some scholars and it has become possible to be labeled Turkic without having any connection to the Asena tribe who popularised that name.

Later Turkic peoples include the Karluks (mainly 8th century), Uighurs, Kirghiz, Oghuz (or Ğuz) Turks, and Turkmens. As these peoples were founding states in the area between Mongolia and Transoxiania, they came into contact with Muslim peoples and gradually adopted Islam. However, there were also (and still are) Turkic people belonging to different religions (Christians, Jews (see Khazars), Buddhists, Zoroastrians).

Turkic soldiers in the army of the Abbasid caliphs emerged as de facto rulers of most of the Muslim Middle East (except Syria and Egypt), particularly after the 10th century. Oghuz and other tribes captured and dominated various countries under the leadership of the Seljuk dynasty and eventually captured the territories of the Abbasid dynasty and the Byzantine Empire.

Meanwhile, Kirghiz and Uighurs were struggling with each other and with the mighty Chinese Empire. Kirghiz people finally settled in the region that is now referred to as Kyrgyzstan. Tatar peoples settled in what is today southern Russia following the westward sweep of the Mongols under Genghis Khan in the 13th century. Everywhere, Turkic groups mixed to some extent with other local populations.

As the Seljuks declined after the Mongol invasion, the Ottoman Empire emerged as a new important Turkic state which came to dominate not only the Middle East, but also southeastern Europe and parts of southwestern Russia and northern Africa. Meanwhile, other Turkic groups founded dynasties in Iran (Safavids) and northern India (the Mughal Empire).

The Ottoman Empire grew weaker in the face of repeated wars with Russia and Austria and the emergence of nationalist movements in the Balkans, and finally gave way after World War I to the present-day republic of Turkey.

Presently, the largest group of Turkic people is living in Turkey. Other major Turkic groups are living in Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan. Additionally, other Turkic people live in the Xinjiang region of China (Uighurs), Iran & Afghanistan (Azeri, Uzbeks, Turkmens), Russia (Tatars, Yakuts), and Moldova (Gagauz). Turks also live in Cyprus and the Balkans.

 

Source:  http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Turkic_peoples/

 

 



Edited (7/8/2010) by Elisabeth
Edited (7/8/2010) by Elisabeth

4.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 09:57 pm

Good thing you have templates stashed somewhere. This way you don´t have to do any research.

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTitle_47020_10

post no 95

I wrote as :

I never heard of Mongolic Turks..

I think Mongolians belong to yellow race like Chinese but Turks are not..

Actually, Turks being related to Mongolians comes from some of Turks who were trying to cast Turks as a superior race!!

When they were looking at historical heroes of the Turks, they though having Chengiz Khan who was very successful about conquering  and everything, as one of our heroes would be a good idea..

But there was a problem: he was a Mongolian..

So what do our racist do? Make more "fantasies" about Turks: Turks might be related to Mongolians or Chengiz Khan was a Turk  (despite the fact that his entire army was Mongolians)

 

 

5.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 10:12 pm

 

Quoting Elisabeth

I too am confused about these terms.  It seems everyone I talk to has a different opinion.  My husband seems to think the entire world is Turkic!  Not sure if this makes is clearer or more confusing:

 

 

 

 

I know that theory but I think, they have not thought of it very carefully..

Because some believe that being a Turk is a priviledge. But the same people insist that the entire world is Turkic (from Amarican Indians/Mayans to Hungarians/Scotts etc)  But if everybody is a Turk, what is the point of being a Turk? lol

Then it comes ´ah but some of us more Turkic´ . I agree, there is a huge confusion there

6.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 10:32 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

Good thing you have templates stashed somewhere. This way you don´t have to do any research.

 

 

He hasn´t used a template has he?

Some definitions of "template" (from Wiki):

  • a pre-developed page layout in electronic or paper media used to make new pages with a similar design, pattern, or style
  • A standard letter in electronic or paper media used many times with details for individual recipients added

 

As far as I can see H did not use either of the above to answer Alameda, he simply referred to a previous post of his own (for which, presumably he had done some research). Obviously he felt he had already dealt with the question elsewhere.

I´ve always felt you are one of the more respected members here, but I have to tell you that you´re giving H ammunition by making such comments, and I don´t think such behaviour is in your remit as a Moderator. 

 

7.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 11:07 pm

Peacetrain, do a google search "templates of thought". I did make it up but it seems some other people use it too. I am just tired of hearing these canned thouhts. Ask him about NASA, he will find an anti-panturanist connection.

 

I often withstand this torment quite nicely. You must give me a break sometimes. I have been hearing this stuff for 30 years and it doesn´t get anywhere.

 

As for the mod stuff. It is more of a liability. I have never abused this title. I could pass it on anyone who thinks he could make time for it.  

 

Quoting peacetrain

 

He hasn´t used a template has he?

Some definitions of "template" (from Wiki):

  • a pre-developed page layout in electronic or paper media used to make new pages with a similar design, pattern, or style
  • A standard letter in electronic or paper media used many times with details for individual recipients added

 

As far as I can see H did not use either of the above to answer Alameda, he simply referred to a previous post of his own (for which, presumably he had done some research). Obviously he felt he had already dealt with the question elsewhere.

I´ve always felt you are one of the more respected members here, but I have to tell you that you´re giving H ammunition by making such comments, and I don´t think such behaviour is in your remit as a Moderator. 

 

 

 



Edited (7/8/2010) by vineyards

8.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 11:46 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

 

As for the mod stuff. It is more of a liability. I have never abused this title. I could pass it on anyone who thinks he could make time for it.  

 

 

 

 {#emotions_dlg.flowers}

 

9.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 08 Jul 2010 Thu 11:54 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

I know that theory but I think, they have not thought of it very carefully..

Because some believe that being a Turk is a priviledge. But the same people insist that the entire world is Turkic (from Amarican Indians/Mayans to Hungarians/Scotts etc)  But if everybody is a Turk, what is the point of being a Turk? lol

Then it comes ´ah but some of us more Turkic´ . I agree, there is a huge confusion there

 

 I think most people are "proud" to be what they are.  I see similarities to my own heritage when I go to other places and wonder what the connection is.  It is human nature to seek similarities in all things. 

 

Anyway, I think the fact that Turkic Tribes where nomadic lends a bit of truth to the possibility that many cultures have been exposed to and have assimilated with Turkic people.  From what I have read, it sounds to me like anthropologists have  many different opinions on the matter. 

10.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 09 Jul 2010 Fri 12:25 am

 

Quoting vineyards

I often withstand this torment quite nicely. You must give me a break sometimes. I have been hearing this stuff for 30 years and it doesn´t get anywhere.

I understand that, sorry.

 

As for the mod stuff. It is more of a liability. I have never abused this title. I could pass it on anyone who thinks he could make time for it.  I understand that too and I took care not to use the word ´abuse´ as it´s a little strong and harsh.  I wouldn´t like the job of a moderator and I respect the time you put in.  But, only on this occasion, you seemed to be prodding the sleeping dog.  Don´t you value the peace and quiet, even for a few minutes?

 

I don´t know how to get more than one boxed quote in a single post .

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