I was talking with a lady the other day regarding the origins of the Turkic people. I always thought of Gengiz Khan as a Turk. She said he was a Mongol.  Which he was, but I also thought of him as being Turkic. Can anyone clarify this relationship?

Terms like Tartar and Turk are often confusing, as the terms are often used with no actual basis in reality.  I knew some people from Italy who called anyone who was Muslim a Turk. The term Tartar is also often used in a rather loose manner.

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTitle_47020_10

post no 95

I wrote as :

I never heard of Mongolic Turks..

I think Mongolians belong to yellow race like Chinese but Turks are not..

Actually, Turks being related to Mongolians comes from some of Turks who were trying to cast Turks as a superior race!!

When they were looking at historical heroes of the Turks, they though having Chengiz Khan who was very successful about conquering  and everything, as one of our heroes would be a good idea..

But there was a problem: he was a Mongolian..

So what do our racist do? Make more "fantasies" about Turks: Turks might be related to Mongolians or Chengiz Khan was a Turk  (despite the fact that his entire army was Mongolians)

I too am confused about these terms.  It seems everyone I talk to has a different opinion.  My husband seems to think the entire world is Turkic!  Not sure if this makes is clearer or more confusing:

Turkic peoples

The world´s Turkic peoples, numbering perhaps 130 million people in all, are the diverse descendants of large groups of tribespeople thought to have originated in Central Asia.

The precise date of their intitial expansion from their early homeland is unknown, but the first known state of the tribe they all became named after was that of the Gokturks (or Kokturks) (Gog = ´Blue´ or ´Celestial´ is dated to the 6th century CE. Huns, whose origins go back to 1200 BCE, are also considered as one of the first Turkic tribes by some scholars and it has become possible to be labeled Turkic without having any connection to the Asena tribe who popularised that name.

Later Turkic peoples include the Karluks (mainly 8th century), Uighurs, Kirghiz, Oghuz (or Ğuz) Turks, and Turkmens. As these peoples were founding states in the area between Mongolia and Transoxiania, they came into contact with Muslim peoples and gradually adopted Islam. However, there were also (and still are) Turkic people belonging to different religions (Christians, Jews (see Khazars), Buddhists, Zoroastrians).

Turkic soldiers in the army of the Abbasid caliphs emerged as de facto rulers of most of the Muslim Middle East (except Syria and Egypt), particularly after the 10th century. Oghuz and other tribes captured and dominated various countries under the leadership of the Seljuk dynasty and eventually captured the territories of the Abbasid dynasty and the Byzantine Empire.

Meanwhile, Kirghiz and Uighurs were struggling with each other and with the mighty Chinese Empire. Kirghiz people finally settled in the region that is now referred to as Kyrgyzstan. Tatar peoples settled in what is today southern Russia following the westward sweep of the Mongols under Genghis Khan in the 13th century. Everywhere, Turkic groups mixed to some extent with other local populations.

As the Seljuks declined after the Mongol invasion, the Ottoman Empire emerged as a new important Turkic state which came to dominate not only the Middle East, but also southeastern Europe and parts of southwestern Russia and northern Africa. Meanwhile, other Turkic groups founded dynasties in Iran (Safavids) and northern India (the Mughal Empire).

The Ottoman Empire grew weaker in the face of repeated wars with Russia and Austria and the emergence of nationalist movements in the Balkans, and finally gave way after World War I to the present-day republic of Turkey.

Presently, the largest group of Turkic people is living in Turkey. Other major Turkic groups are living in Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan. Additionally, other Turkic people live in the Xinjiang region of China (Uighurs), Iran & Afghanistan (Azeri, Uzbeks, Turkmens), Russia (Tatars, Yakuts), and Moldova (Gagauz). Turks also live in Cyprus and the Balkans.

Source:  http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Turkic_peoples/

Good thing you have templates stashed somewhere. This way you don´t have to do any research.

I know that theory but I think, they have not thought of it very carefully..

Because some believe that being a Turk is a priviledge. But the same people insist that the entire world is Turkic (from Amarican Indians/Mayans to Hungarians/Scotts etc)  But if everybody is a Turk, what is the point of being a Turk?

Then it comes ´ah but some of us more Turkic´ . I agree, there is a huge confusion there

He hasn´t used a template has he?

Some definitions of "template" (from Wiki):

• a pre-developed page layout in electronic or paper media used to make new pages with a similar design, pattern, or style
• A standard letter in electronic or paper media used many times with details for individual recipients added

As far as I can see H did not use either of the above to answer Alameda, he simply referred to a previous post of his own (for which, presumably he had done some research). Obviously he felt he had already dealt with the question elsewhere.

I´ve always felt you are one of the more respected members here, but I have to tell you that you´re giving H ammunition by making such comments, and I don´t think such behaviour is in your remit as a Moderator. 

Peacetrain, do a google search "templates of thought". I did make it up but it seems some other people use it too. I am just tired of hearing these canned thouhts. Ask him about NASA, he will find an anti-panturanist connection.

I often withstand this torment quite nicely. You must give me a break sometimes. I have been hearing this stuff for 30 years and it doesn´t get anywhere.

As for the mod stuff. It is more of a liability. I have never abused this title. I could pass it on anyone who thinks he could make time for it.  

 I think most people are "proud" to be what they are.  I see similarities to my own heritage when I go to other places and wonder what the connection is.  It is human nature to seek similarities in all things. 

Anyway, I think the fact that Turkic Tribes where nomadic lends a bit of truth to the possibility that many cultures have been exposed to and have assimilated with Turkic people.  From what I have read, it sounds to me like anthropologists have  many different opinions on the matter. 

I don´t know how to get more than one boxed quote in a single post .

You silly people!

We all come from 3 sons of Noah.

A few weeks ago my friend told me she thought I looked like a Saxon!!!

I´m from the UK, take your pick . . . Angle, Saxon, Jute, Celt, Roman, Viking,

Norman (originally Scandinavian) . . .  erm . . . I think lemon may have a point . . .

A geneticist will answer Alameda´s question more accurately. Nevertheless, here is what I know:

* People are like gene soups, they carry cromosoms from diversified sources.

* Russian,Kazakh and Kirgiz people are genetically close to Mongolians.

* Turks in modern Turkey share genes with almost all the neighboring countries. A recent study found that the Asian connection Turks keep talking about has  no genetic evidence. It is indeed one of the least dominant gene groups.

* Mongolian genes are to be found in all of Asia and Most of Europe hence America. Mongolian repeatedly occupied vast lands in Asia and Europe leaving behind their genes.

For 100 Euros you could trace your genetical past down to 11th century. Check out these:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090528000944AApLVBc

http://www.igenea.com/

Actually, there is a story and a theory behind Chengiz Khan relating to Turks.
In Ottoman times, Ottoman were not particularly keen of these Chengiz, Atilla type tribal/nomadic warriors. They considered themselves more advanced and established in southern europe/anatolia/africa as opposed to nomadic tribes. The Ottomans  saw themselves as the continuation  of the Roman empire!!

When Ottomans started to lose the wars, constant humiliation was the feeling amongs the ´freshly bred nationalists Turks´. They wanted to associate the nationalism with the heroic figures.. Chengiz, Atilla were very suitable names for the purpose of ´heroic warriors Turks´.

But Chengiz was a bit problematic as he was a Mongolian and he belonged to yellow race. But being in yellow race was not popular of course.. You can find many writings about Turks belonging to white race from the time. (we are talking about the time from  1890s )
So the problem of Chengiz Khan being a Mongolian was sorted out in 1932 in the first  Turkish  History  Congress by Afet Inan :

She declared that Chengiz Khan was actually from a Turkish tribe and the name ´mogol´-mongolian- was given to him later on. Of course once you have the intentions you ignore the evidence!!
So it is like ´If Mohammed will not go to the mountain, the mountain must come to ...´ type incident..

Later on even Ataturk got worried about this ´Turks´ equals ´warriors´ simplicity, he himself tried to associate Turks with civilizations..But because of ´the army was the leader for creating the republic´ army nation/ warrior Turks become more and more prominent..
       
       

You are probably quite correct.....this is a question for a geneticist....however, when I wrote Turk...it was in the context of Türkic, not Turkish. As I understand, Turks (citizens of Turkey) are not necessarily Türkic. You have Traki peoples, Laz, Çerkiz and whatever remained from the Lycians, Hittites, Hattites and all...plus..many more all blended into what are today citizens of Turkey.

On the other hand, Türkic people are, from what I´ve learned a blend of European, Mongolian people. They are currently the Human migration and interbreeding. I´ve heard the saying, "scratch a Russian and you get a Tartar".

There was program here on PBS regarding mans migration out of Africa. The new theory is there were two separate migrations. The last one was the one went to Mongolia then back into Europe. I wish I could find a link, but I´m too lazy now....

Scientists said Neanderthal and Cro-Magnons did not interbreed, but recent evidence indicates they did. I´m not at all surprised, given what I´ve seen of humans.

Neanderthal genome reveals interbreeding with humans

"Any human whose ancestral group developed outside Africa has a little Neanderthal in them – between 1 and 4 per cent of their genome, Pääbo´s team estimates. In other words, humans and Neanderthals had sex and had hybrid offspring. A small amount of that genetic mingling survives in "non-Africans" today: Neanderthals didn´t live in Africa, which is why sub-Saharan African populations have no trace of Neanderthal DNA."

Alameda,

What you ve written about neandertal (an invention of poor evolutionists) breeding with humans is utterly absurd and shameless.

What dont they tell you? what dont they make up and paint in order to escpae the truth?

Not everything "scientists" say is a fact. Didnt you know they color everything so that people like you start quoting them just because they carry big titles but in fact they are fairy-tales writers.

I always learned that Khan was a Mongol, language wise and simply tracking down the route he took. I don´t know why he would be of Turkic descent. He was born in Modern day Mongolia, in a Mongolian tribe, and later conquered Turkestan (or whatever you want to call it). But what does it matter? We´re all Africans anyway The only way you could try and trace back some heritage lines is by doing exstensive DNA research.

Not just the genes Barba, there are linguistc and cultural links that hold people together. Frome a linguistic point of view these languages are related to one another this way or  another: Mongolian,Japanese, Korean, Finnish, Turkic Languages. Finnish syntax is so close to Turkish, the syntax is virtually the same, the same agglunative morphology. For example, in Turkish, you would add the word: "mi" or "mu" to turn it into interrogative; in Finnish you do the same thing with "ko". Nouns have cases like Turkish. Yet there is little similarity racially. Arabs and Jews are so close racially that in most case they are practically the same people but they form the opposite poles culturally and politically.

We so called northern people come from Japheth. All European, Mongoloids (turks, chinese, korean, japan) come from Japheth.

Check this out:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Noah

I disagree. Culturally the Jews and Arabs are also very similar. If you look at religious rules, background, customs, they are very much the same although the xenophobes among them like to say otherwise. Divide and conquer, right?

And I also said that from a language point of view, the famous Khan was a Mongol.

Not so much important if he is genetically Turk or Mongol. But in language point of view he was speaking Turkish to delegates but he also knew Mongolian, some historians say he was introducing himself as a Turk in his speeches to army and many of his warriors were from Turkic nomads. Chinese records say he was from the Sha-To family which is one of the branches of Göktürk family. His bureaucrats are of Uyghur origin, his mother was Kirghiz, his first wife was from Turkic tribe, his son Ogeday only knew Turkish that he was saying his father was always speaking Turkish with him. He used wolf as a symbol whereas Mongolians were using dog, etc...

The Turks who had embraced Islam at that time like Oghuzs hate him because he massacred millions of muslims, so it was better for them that he had known as a Mongol.

Now as you said A, now be ready to say B. Back this up! Any source?

The name Borte doesnt sound Turkic at all.

Everyone, shut up! He was kazakh!

Sources are from Cengizname and a research book from a Turkish professor named Zeki Velidi Togan. By the way have you ever heard "börteçine" before? It was the name of the blue wolf in Turkish legends, "ergenekon yurdun adı, börteçine kurdun adı" . And yeah he can be Kazakh if you want, he was speaking Kazakh language...  

Lemon,

Like or not, humans have mated, or tried to mate with a dizzying array of options from time immemorial. Cro-Magnon Neanderthal is really not that implausable. 

In fact, the mating instinct gives birth to a whole array of interesting hybred species....If there were no beastiality, why would it be mentioned in Leviticus 18:23?

blue wolf in kazakh is kok kaskir. grey wolf is bori kaskir.   I wish I had time to continue, but I am in a hurry plus I cant be really bothered. To me things are clear, we all are from Noah´s sons. We all are relatives.

börte is still used among Turkish girls as a name which means endless blueness of sky, to me things are clear as well...

Alameda,

now you are making me angry. No human can breed with any animal. Please, stop this. It makes me sick. Please stop following evolutionists who try to animalize humans.

I will come back to this. Stop this, alameda, clean yourself from the evolution, dont defile your mind with their lies.

Never heard a name like this but the word "kök" which sounds like "kök"=root and "gök" must be common between Kazakh and Turkish. We say, gök mavisi meaning the blue (color) of the sky. Furthermore, count numbers are the same in most Turkic languages. There are just minor differences in pronunciation. When I hear a Kazakh count from 0 to 9, I feel as if he is going to shoot me at the end of the counting. Azeri language is very melodic though it sounds a bit funny to Turkish ears. A while ago I started writing a review on mutual intelligibility between speakers of Turkish and other Turkic languages. I thought no one was paying any attention and discontinued. To sum it up, when I carefully listen to lanuages like Uzbek and Kirghis, I do understand the general context and Azeri is the closest language to Turkish. Kazakh is a bit different but every now and then you hear a common word. I also found Tatar can be understood if listened carefully.

If you can google or in FB, you can find Turkish people with name "börte", but yes it is not a common name. By the way as a clarification börteçine does not mean blue wolf, it is special name given to the blue wolf in the Turkish legends...

If it became known that Khan had babies for breakfast he would stop being a Turk overnight

There are hearsays that Cingiz was ordering his hungry warriors to eat enemy´s girls, so barba beware of Turks and Mongols... 

You! Joker!

Bir! Eki! Ush! Tort! Bes! Alti! Zheti! Segiz! Toghiz! On!   ..

Alameda,

I think you dont understand Leviticus Laws at all. Ask Armegon to explain it to you. He seems to be very good at understanding ancient laws and regulations.

There was bestiality and still is (which wasnt for breeding purpose). That is why the Law was given. The perversion was widely practised as well as many evil and disgusting things.

Now a short story why Cingiz did not become muslim;

Arabs struggled much to make him muslim. If he had accaepted Islam, in a short time the whole central asia would have been muslim. One day a Arab delegate visited Cingiz tent to invite him into Islam, and a conversation between them ;

- Great Cingiz we are here to invite you into Islam.

- What is Islam you are talking about?

-  It is a religion annunciated to whole humanity via our prophet Muhammed Mustafa.

- And what is the prophet you are talking about?

- He is the chosen messenger of the Creator of universe.

- Can be. I am also representative of Tengri here.

-But you were not revealed a book from God. We have Quran revealed to our beloved prophet.

- What it is written in your book? Summarize please

Arab delegate read surah Ihlas and Cingiz requested it to be translated into Turkish;

-" Say:He, Allah, is one, God the eternal, the uncaused cause of all being, He begets not, neither he is begotten; and none is like him"

After listening it, Cingiz laughed and responded;

- Have you just learned this? We know and apply this for one thousand years. Now you can leave.

Armegon (son of Japheth),

You are a typical Turk. When you talk to a Turk you will smell it from a mile that he is a Turk. You know why? Because all Turks (I mean turkic nations) are pan-turkists. It doesnt have to have a negative connotation though.

, what can i do? God created me as a member of Turkish family . We are all relative at the end