http://www.upi.com/Top_News/International/2010/08/07/France-begins-clearing-Gypsy-encampments/UPI-70141281220480/

modern and civilized EU has started nationalist attack on gypsies...

djxxx

I agree with you on this..

Possibly Sarkozy is trying win bunch of right wing/nationalists/xenophobic votes. Of course, the easiest way of doing it is to play race card and gypsies are the perfect group to stigmatize..

Their presence wasn´t against the law. They have the right to move freely in the EU, since they are from an EU country. France declared them illegal to get rid of them, since the crime-rates did go up wherever they went. However, this declaring legal is a French thing, and not backed up by EU laws.

 every country has that kind of ppl...Turkey has also its own ppl who help terrorists  and break the rules..so that all countries and Turkey has right to send out of country????

DJxxx

I´m not sure about French laws, but I suppose they´re similar to Irish ones that grant freedom of migration for EU citizens provided that the immigrants are able to provide for themselves (without breaking the law), which clearly is not the case with Gypsies. Also, Italy introduced stricter laws to check Gypsie´s identity as many use forged Bulgarian or Romanian passports.

Janis - aren´t the terrorists you talk about Turkish citizens? In that case you don´t have anywhere to send them back to, do you?

I don´t understand why people are so quick to defend criminals - jail them or send them back to where they came from

here´s info about moving to Ireland

Information

If you are a national of the European Union (EU), of one of the other EEA member states (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway) or of Switzerland, you have the right to stay in Ireland, and your family members have the right to stay here also. There are some limits to this right, however.

You can stay in Ireland for up to 3 months without restriction. If you plan to stay more than 3 months, you must either:

• Be engaged in economic activity (employed or self employed) or
• Have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that you do not become a burden on the social services of Ireland or
• Be enrolled as a student or vocational trainee or
• Be a family member of a Union citizen in one of the previous categories.

And here´s what I found about France:

The legal basis for freedom of movement in the European Community is, for salaried workers, Article 39 and after of the EC Treaty, and for the self-employed Article 43 and after relating to freedom of movement, and also Article 50 and after for freedom to provide services.

So Gypsies coming there and not even looking for work are hardly eligible to stay there, are they?

What Italy wanted to do is a disgrace... They wanted to have blood tests and special "gypsy" passports... come on... Did I go to bed, and wake up about 60-65 years ago?

They took the money and will go back to France anyway 

Well, BM, I think Gypsies sort of ask for trouble. It´s hard to treat them as normal citizens since they respect their Gypsy law more than the country´s they´re in. They have a repulsive marital policy and often break basic laws of host countries like compulsory education. Since they have such a bad attitude to the country whose passport they carry, why should they be given the same rights? Can you imagine what would happen if you didn´t send your child to school or if you forced your 12 year old daughter to marry? You´d most probably be fined or sentenced. With them it;s a different story - nobody is willing to testify so everybody pretends nothing happened. Gypsies should be delegalised! Or forced to obey the law.

I never heard of that..

But a huge ´Oha´ yani!!

When you think of that  straightforward anti-black racism is no longer the main form of bigotry in western countires.. Not anymore!!.

People in the west are quite and openly hostile towards Romany gypsies and  asylum seekers.

Racism against gypsies is a norm of ´respected´ racism unfortunately.. Anti-gypsy racism is very deeply rooted. Rooted historically.. In ´gypsy hating rethorics´ there is "a systematic prejudice and discrimination against a distinct group of people". So that is racism!!..Gypsies have been unassimilated for centuries, That is partly  because of the prejudice they have been facing..

Such a shame..No country wants them; people dont want to see them..

There is a realistic exchange between politicians and voters. Politicians -especially the ones like Sarkozy, who losed his support significantly- do not hesitate to perform inethical policies if the expectations of the society is inethical. 

Thats why, as long as xenofobia takes place in a considerable amount of the EU citizens subconscious, we will go on to witness that kind of events more. 

This might shock people, but there are actually gypsies in Holland too! They don´t marry at 12, they don´t drive around the country to steal from people. Yes, some are criminal, but there are criminals in EVERY part of society.

In France there was a real problem. These newly arrived people brought a higher crime rate with them. BUTTTTT We all seem to forget the large gypsy population that has been living in France for many many generations, without any trouble! Let´s say France would get the same "brilliant" idea as Italy? And post "gypsy" in their passports... fingerprinting everybody, and putting them in a database. Even the young kids! (Yes, this WAS an actual idea in Italy.) Do you think this is fair to the good gypsy people, who have kept their noses clean? And why do you think those "new" gypsies came to France in the first place? Amongst them were people with diploma´s in their pocket, unable to get a good job in their home country, simply because they were gypsies.

This racism has to stop. I don´t know why people are always complaining about how others treat them bad. "Oh look, the West is against us Muslims... stupid racists"... "Oh look, the Turkish people aren´t nice enough to us Christians who live in Turkey"...bla bla bla, all empty talk if you treat others the same way! I agree with the previous post, that somehow racism against gypsies is accepted. It´s sickening.

It´s easy to play the racism card to avoid responsibility. The same goes for asylum seekers. European countries have been granting asylum for decades and look where it brought them. They came to the stage where people can refuse to work and choose to be given money by the state only because they´re refugees or because they have forged papers that give them the refugee status. Of course it doesn´t go for all refugees, it´s never possible to put everyone into one basket, but lots of refugees live like parasites and boas of their lifestyle saying their host country is stupid because it gives them free houses, cars and enough money not to worry about anything.

I don´t think many people are against Gypsies as a race (ethnicity?). I think if it weren´t Gypsies who camped on state land bringing along increase of crime, but, say, Poles, they´d be removed from there in no time, sent home at their own expense or end up in jail. And nobody would be apalled by such action. But since it´s Gypsies, the word racism springs to mind and instead of seeing criminals (regardless of their race) you see victims.

I wonder - what do you think French government should do?

I agree that Italian plans were a total disregard to human rights - you cannot do that as it´s no different than brading. It´s like having religion put into your documents as it is in Turkey. It shouldn´t matter if you are a Gypsy, A Muslim, a Kazakh or a Christian - as long as you don´t break the law you should be treated as the rest of citizens.

I think whoever committed the crimes should not be declared "illegal" and get money to go away again. The real criminals should end up in jail, either in France or in their home country. I don´t think the gypsies are being delt with because of racism, but I do think gypsies have to deal with a lot of racism, and the WAY that this group is being dealt with IS racist.. It´s not "criminal Bulgarians and Romenians" who are being put outside of the country... No, ofcourse not. It´s "the gypsies"... it´s 700 people at this time, and the crime that they all commited was illegal encampment. The crimes like stealing were not commited by all of them. They "build" houses in places that this was not allowed. So, just take the action that is normal for these kind of activities. Saying they are illegal is crazy. And what about the children in these camps?

They use the word gypsies in the press, and it rings in peoples ears and affects the normal, non-criminal gypsies. Nobody can say that gypsies don´t have to deal with racism all the time. Gypsy is a word I´ve heard many times being used as a curse word in Turkey.

By the way, there are a lot of critics who say that Sarkozy is doing this to distract the attention from the problems his party is having right now. And it seems that racism means you can win votes (like recent elections in Holland showed). I guess Sarkozy will win in 2012.

It´s not only illegal camping, in my earlier post I quoted the EU laws about migration. Since they do not work and cannot provide for themselves, they cannot stay in France. I imagine not every immigrant who lives in the streets is treated this way, but let´s be honest, 700 people who are illegally staying in a foreign country on illegal land, are a problem, aren´t they?

I can only guess that giving them money is in hope of them going away peacefully. I think it´s wrong, they should be kicked out at their own expense.

DD, you wrote negative posts about gypsies and nobody called you racist?   Oh, boy!

I suppose if those posts belonged to me ....

Hypocrats they are!  I mean some TC members.

Ha! They fear me! I´m more fearsome than you threatening everyone with God´s wrath!

Plus I´m not racist! I´m illegalist

 The problem of people is that they can be united and cooperate only when they are united againts others. The enemy unites them. It may seem that the joint uniting people is common language, common culture and commonly shared values, in the meantime it turns out none of positive joints is so strong to unite people. The only thing that can make people unite is the common enemy.... In 19th century nations were invented, the enemy becomes any alien nation, and the result?War between nations. After several wars and the death of millions in XX century it was decided to finish with nations and European Union was created. But in order Union exists, to make all see that she exists, some are not allowed to enter her. These are the rules of this stupid game: there must be always some excluded

Eric-Emmanuel Schmitt"Ulysse from Bagdad

Europe civilized? Since when?

Birdy, I don´t get what you´re criticising here. What do you mean Europe is not civilised? Europe is just a continent, it´s the people you can complain about. And I actually think Europeans are not that bad as far as "civilisation" is concerned. Of course there are issues that need to be improved but, all in all, it does grant its inhabitants more rights and more equality than they could dream of in backward Arabialand, where women are still murdered for adultery, or certain countries in Africa, where girls are mutilated for men´s pleasure.

You don´t like Europe? You think it prosecutes minorities? If deporting people breaking the law seems discriminatory, then you´re right. Sure, folks of Europe have been responsible for lots of actions against humanity, ie obligatory sterilisation of Romani women in Czechoslovakia. But it has nothing to do with the situation in France now. Not all Roma are deported, only these dwelling in public places illegaly. Also, if I´m not mistaken, 1/3 of the people deported are not Gypsies...

It´s easy to judge others if you have never had to tackle this problem yourself. I wonder how compassionate you´d be if 300 Gypsies decided to camp in front of your house, littering, stealing, begging and harrassing your children. What would the civilised action be? Many countries tried assimilating Gypsies - some were more, others less successful. I have no problem with Gypsies who obey the law, I wouldn´t mind them living next to me. But I object to people taking advantage of others. If that makes me uncivilised, then be it

Well, if you are reffering me, I can clearly say that I found DD´s posts -especially early posts- in this thread are quite racist. That was the reason why my post was  about gypsy-hating / respected racism etc.

I dont like ´prejudice and discrimination against any group of people without making any distinctions between that group when accusing´.

When you dont make that distinction, you are at the center of categorising, typecasting people .

Many examples all around: All pakistanis are sheria loving people; Turks are barbaric; Kurds are primitive; refugees are sucking the welfare system; Dutch are softy; Gypsies are thiefs; muslims are terrorists etc..

Removed one of Daydreamer´s posts.

There are several "problems" here. One is the fact that there has been no accomodation for nomadic peoples in modern "civilization". Number two is the inaccurate discription of "gypsies" or "Roma" peoples. FYI they have a cast system, professions are learned from infancy. I´m sure you would not have a problem with the artists...or would you?

My description of Gypsies is simple. It comes from my expeirence since my childhood. I try to respect any ethnicity but it always has its boundaries.

If artists are meant to behave like them then: No, thank you.

People, lets talk truth not political correctness aka hypocracy.

Its a shame DD´s post was removed. I had no chance to read it.

The situation of gypsies in countries like Romania is very very sad. If you saw with your own eyes how they are treated there, you would understand why they would do anything to leave there. They hardly get any opportunity to make a living. When you are a gypsy, the chance that somebody will hire you is about 0,01% And you can´t expect every gypsy to make a living from music, right?

I still think this situation is highly influenced by racism. The cause of them leaving their "home countries" in the first place is an effect of racism. To be honest, I had a bad experience with some gypsie people. But the number of bad experiences that I had with Turkish people is way way WAY higher. However, I don´t judge the entire Turkish nation on these people. Just like I don´t judge the entire gypsy population on the few that steal and so on.

Havent seen ever in my life a Turk stealing and cheating all around or turning a public place into a place to avoid.

I think you have not seen many gypsies stealing either.. But that is the belief you have and that is very common.. That belief is not a belief you acquired after you had some experience with gypsies. It is the result of common perception about them..

(I was talking to my mom on the phone the other day.. We talked about how Turkish politicians´ rhetorics are becoming like street language/quality dropping etc.. She added her comment in the end as ´ I know.. They are like gypsies´.

Barba, you know why Turks in Europe are living mostly in close communities and more radical than the Turks in Turkey, maybe did they have bad experiences with European people?

You are also talking about politics on phone with your mum, woe to your mummy

I think if anyone lived in an area where gypsies turn up in convoys and park on people land illegally, steal what ever they want, don´t pay tax or contribute to society, but want everything you would perhaps change you mind about predjudice!  The police are even scared to go onto a gypsie site as they are surrounded and hounded off.  They are intimidating and they think they are beyond the law and sadly it is the minority that make it bad for the majority. 

And whats more, you should see the mess they leave behind, human faeces, bags of rotting rubbish, burned out cars, and other junk.  They do themselves no favours.

In Norway they did very bad things to Romanies (Gypsies):

The number of Romanies in this Scandinavian nation is a matter of dispute, but the official representative of the nation´s Romanies puts the figure at 20,000 out of a total population of 4.3 million.

Romanies in Norway were persecuted for many decades, particularly early in the 20th century. Laws were passed in an attempt to make these nomadic people settle in one place, and several institutions tried—often using harsh methods—to forcibly assimilate Romanies into Norwegian society and eradicate their cultural heritage, including their language, music, and religion.

Many of the organizations involved in the suppression of Romany culture were run by the church or managed by clergy. The most prominent was the Norwegian Mission among the Homeless which is now believed to have been responsible for at least 40 percent of forced sterilizations of Romany women, mainly in the 1930s and 1940s.

Up to 300 women were sterilized against their will, and about 1,700 children were taken away from their mothers and adopted by other families or placed in children´s homes. This process continued until the 1970s.

Yeah, Norway´s biggest church, the (Lutheran) Church of Norway, has apologized to the nation´s Romanies—once known as gypsies—for its ill treatment of their people in the past.

Of the church´s support for the forced sterilizations, Pettersen, head of the Romany People´s National Union, said: "The church gave its ideological support to the social debate about racial hygiene [eugenics] which took place in Norway as in most other Western countries in the 1930s."

Lemon - you had a chance to read my post, Kitty deleted the first one I posted here, the one Handsom found racist.

Alameda - just like I said in my previous post - I wouldn´t mind a Gypsy neighbour of any legal profession. I doesn´t matter to me if my neighbours are artists, construction workers or clairvoyants. But I do mind having 30 people camping in front of my house or on my child´s playground, littering the place, using shrubs as their toilet and asking me for money every two minutes.

I remember what Poland looked like rigth after communism ended. We had a huge flow of Roma Gypsies - in every big city they´d occupy every corner. If you went to an outdoor restaurant, you´d be surrounded by dirty children demanding money. If you refused, they´d spit into your plate. That really works wonders for assimilation, doesn´t it? And I´m not repeating urban legends here - I´m talking about my personal experience with Gypsies. The best part was seeing a brand new shiny Mercedes collecting all those begging in the streets.

My sister in law used to teach in a school for troubled youth. Not really surprising that majority were Gypsies. They were proud of their lifestyle, of cheating, stealing and the Gypsy code. They openly told her they consider her worse than them and that only a fool would work for something that they can nick. Not to mention the fact that they would constantly call her names, and their parents would threaten her every time she was to make one of them repeat class.

Am I biased? Maybe. If you think it´s racist to dislike somebody spitting in your food because you don´t want to give them money - fine. But I´d feel the same about Poles or Brits if they acted like this.

To sum up, it doesn´t matter what ethnicity it is, if they´re breaking the law - send them home. I don´t understand why it would be France´s responsibility to take care of Romanian or Bulgarian Gypsies...oh, and I don´t think Gypsies emigrate because of racism. They do it because the money made by begging is better and the social welfare in the west offers them more than the one in their home country.

I was actually talking about Turks in Turkey. I had no bad experiences with Turks in Holland.

There is a gypsy camp in my city actually, and there is no human faeces on the ground. They use toilets. Their cars are shiny, not burning. Their rubbish is in garbage bags. I´m sure that there are gypsies in the world as you describe. Like you said, these are not the majority of gypsies, but there are people who treat every gypsy as if they are car-burning, rubbish spreading scum. That is what racism is. I don´t treat every Turk that I meet as a lying, smooth talking criminal who´s only goals are to get into my wallet or my pants. In the same way, not every gypsy should be treated as scum.

I have seen an interview with one of the people who lived in the camp-site that is also on the planning for deportion (not one of the people who left already with French-go-away money). He showed his college degree, which is useless to him anyway since nobody will hire a gypsy. This is a very real problem in countries like Romania.

i reckon that´s why they are not being considered for deportation? Are they Dutch born Gypsies or foreigners?

Actually it´s not only Gypsies who have a problem finding job in Romania, college degree doesn´t help you much if you were born in a country like this. It used to be the same in Poland. Well...it still is to a certain extent.

I am not talking about you or Dutchs but rather talking about Turks in Europe, and it seems they had bad experiences with Europeans...

It is similar how some Turks depict Kurds 

there is no way to discuss this topic anymore coz everybody know what have happened in EU but some members dont wanna understand..France are burn Gypsies home and send them out of country but Turkey is moving Gypsies to apartments instead of applying any racist applications to them. and EU used to apply pressure on Turks and our goverment for changing naturel situation of Gypsies.

http://e-dergi.atauni.edu.tr/index.php/GSED/article/view/2512

this article about gypsies in TR. Turks were accused of pressure on gypsies, now france are applying racism to them..noody can tell them stop...this is double standard and EU applications in Turkey are always double standards like armenian, kurdish issues.

ps. Im not sorry that DD´s some posts deleted. DD has to be removed from TC completely

DJxxx

 are u sure Im sure Turks had problem with u

 u are comparing Turks and gypsies coz of your bad experiences..do u have any ppl in the world who wont have trouble with u...as long as u are in present mood; u will continue to have problems. u should start school from kindergarten to highest level again coz u started to behave childish again..

The gypsies I am talking about WERE born in Holland yes, THAT was my point. When we are talking about the people being deported from France, we should say "Romanians are being deported" and not say "gypsies are being deported." But somehow, being gypsy is the main feature of interest to people. It´s not like gypsies from around the world are flocking to France to poop on the street there.

 Okay, this is becoming a personal attack, so I will spell it out to you. SOME people on here defend their racist talks about gypsies, with the bad experiences they had with gypsies. If you can judge an entire people based on the few bad experiences you had with some of them, than I can call every Turk a stupid, horny, smelly, stealing idiot. But I don´t... that was my point, which you totally missed. I don´t judge Turkish people on the few idiots in the population. I am not comparing gypsies and Turkish people. I´m just saying that Turkish people would complain, if the entire world would judge them on the stupid behaviour of a few. But somehow it is accepted in Turkey to judge all gypsies on the behaviour of a few. This sounds very hypocritical to me. I know not every Turk is a hypocrite like this, but I have never before heard so many negative things about gypsies, as I did in Turkey. So, you find my complaints about hypocracy and racism childish. That is sad,.. for you. Not for me.

I also find it very sad that you don´t even understand the simple difference between "EU" and it´s members. France is an EU member, but what it has done now with the gypsies is an internal French problem. And you think that Turkey is some kind of heaven for gypsies or something? I have seen policemen beat gypsy kids with a stick in Turkey. Is that a good thing? And this is only the top of the bad behaviour I´ve seen towards them. Lucky gypsies!

Why do you bother to explain things to Janis, Barba? He will never understand your point. In his mind he believes we all praise EU and hate Turkey. Nothing you say will change it, he will live and die thinking this way. He doesn´t seem to see the difference between France deporting Gypsy immigrants, who came to this country and break the law and each country´s attempt to assimilate their Gypsies. The Gypsies born in France are not being subject to deportation, are they? The Gypsies in Turkey are not immigrant either, right?

What I really disapprove of is political correctness going overboard. If Gypsies camp illegaly and constitute threat to public safety why is it wrong to want to have them removed? Is calling them Gypsies or Romani a bad thing? If they were Poles, nobody would object to their being called Poles. If a black person mugs you in the street, is it racist to say you were mugged by a black person? Describing people by their most obvious characteristics is not racist. It is however racist to think that all Gypsies are a menace or that all black people are criminals. Nowhere in my posts did I state that ALL Gypsies should be deported - I was referring tot he given group. How is that racist? It´s not their ethnic origin that I consider reason for deportation but their behaviour...or do you, PC brigade, think that certain groups can get away with more only because they have a different ethnic origin?

she has to explain her things to me...she doesnt has to explain things to you coz u dont have enough capacity to understand. I dont belive that u all hate Turkey.coz ı know u hate turkey but U spent time with Turks u cant live without turks..we are ´´viagra ´´ of EU which makes u happier...u comment all stiation what u want..the person who Thinks that gypsies in TR are citizen; gypsies in france are immigrant must be very low intellectual capacity...u dont know what this issue means??? so go and read something about gypsies then u can tell us smtg...please dont change the topic with your low capacity opinions...

u wrote here what u think about Turkish..Im sure u mixed Turks with your man  such as

stupid, horny, smelly, stealing idiot...

Actually I don´t think turks are better or worse than any other nationality romance- or sexwise. I´d say they are in the European average. Viagra of Europe? Please I have no idea what experience you have with men in Europe, but I can assure you women here have nothing to complain about

And yes, there are french Gypsies, meaning these who have French citizenship - nobody is trying to deprt them. The ones who are being deported is illegal immigrants. And they´re not being deported because they are Gypsies, but because they´re breaking the law. How´s that for "capacity" - unless you mean I have a low brain capacity for nonsense you´re selling

 ha ha ha, Im not interested in men your low capacity cant understand thesehow a low capacity why u all come to TR? Why u all talk about Turkish a lot dont u have anything to do? hmm understood, u are here coz of me...haha, but Im not interested in post menopausal women

I think EU commission will have a IQ test for citizens then will deport them dont come to Tr coz this country is for high level IQ

DJxxx

Well, you know, there are men who are interested in other men, it´s quite a common thing. I thought you were an expert on men as you called Turks viagra of Europe. How would you know that if you didn´t check turkish men and European ones and compare them?

Why do I write about Turkey? because I can and because I am interested in this country - I´ve been there several times and I found it fascinating. It´s a country of great cultural clash, tradition and progress walk hand in hand, you have backward ideas being challenged by modern ones. It´s interesting to observe it. I don´t think many countries in Europe are so divided. Besides, Turkey might join the EU one day so it´s natural that one wants to know a lot about it. I don´t have to mention the food and the seas, do I?

As for IQ levels. The literacy rate in Turkey is about 88% while in EU it´s well over 95%. I suggest you check sources before showing off your ignorance. Oh, you know what, Wikipedia quotes national IQ estimate here. Sorry, Janis, you´re behind EU results. Not that these estiamtes actually mean anything - it would be stupid to call a whole nation wise or stupid. You should try to see a bigger picture instead of hating everybody who isn´t Turkish.

It´s a problem that a lot of people have a bad image of gypsies. And by stating that gypsies are being deported, it just enforces the bad image people have of them. Also, the way in which they are treated is differently than the average Romanian. Perhaps even better in this case, because they get "going away" money from the government. I don´t agree with this. It´s like those gypsies are some kind of disease that they want to pay extra money for to get rid off. This is my problem with the issue. I know that this mind seem pc to some, but it is a reality that a lot of racist people (no, not you) use this to say "you see, gypsies are criminals". I think they should not be treated any better, or worse, and I get the idea that in this case they are. Call them illegal immigrants, and deal with them as you would do any other illegal immigrant. That´s just my opinion

 haha, this IQ test must have conducted to polish who lives in ireland

"can´t we all just get along?" -  Rodney King 2007

No!!

"Getting along is BANNED until further notice"!!

Wow just came across this thread!  Pretty amazed at the racism here   

In all fairness, I wonder if those people would react in the same way if you replaced the word "gypsy" for "kurd" or "jew".   I don´t think so.......

Well, I think if you replace the word Gypsy for Kurd the reactions would be the same But ofcourse they would include a long story about feudal societies.

Not from the people who made the comments about gypsies, no.