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The Inlayed Subject
(28 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
[1] 2 3
1.       Abla
3647 posts
 10 Jul 2011 Sun 07:41 pm

Ali´nin geldiği zaman çarşıya gittik.

Sütlaç ılıdıktan sonra üzerine tarçın serpin.

Why is the subject part of the participle structure sometimes in genitive case and sometimes not?

Greetings from here.

2.       tunci
7149 posts
 10 Jul 2011 Sun 07:50 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Ali´nin geldiği zaman çarşıya gittik.

Sütlaç ılıdıktan sonra üzerine tarçın serpin.

Why is the subject part of the participle structure sometimes in genitive case and sometimes not?

Greetings from here.

 

that should be ; Ali geldiği zaman çarşıya gittik.  --> when Ali arrived, we went to the market.

so We dont put "nin" suffex to subject.

the second sentence is ok.

Example ; if it was like this ;

Ali´nin buraya gelmesi uzun sürdü ---> Ali´s coming here took long time ..which means It took long time for Ali to come here.

 Ali´s coming  -->  his coming ---> therefore we put "nin"

 

3.       Abla
3647 posts
 11 Jul 2011 Mon 10:44 am

I´m surprised because the fault was not mine: I took the sentence from a Turkish lesson. Maybe it was a misspelling. But it was good it was there because I had the wrong idea about this grammar point. And besides, one suffix less is always good news.

The need for genitive subject concerns only infinitives, doesn´t it? Is this a strict rule? What about infinitives, do they ever accept nominative subjects? (I have some googleing to do).

Thanks, tunci.

4.       si++
3785 posts
 13 Jul 2011 Wed 12:19 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Ali´nin geldiği zaman çarşıya gittik.

Sütlaç ılıdıktan sonra üzerine tarçın serpin.

Why is the subject part of the participle structure sometimes in genitive case and sometimes not?

Greetings from here.

 

Ali geldiği zaman = When Ali comes/came,

Ali´nin geldiği zaman = specifically when Ali came/come,

For the second form, there is a specific reference to the time when Ali comes/came. That said, you should come across with the first one most of the times.

5.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Jul 2011 Thu 12:09 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Ali geldiği zaman = When Ali comes/came,

Ali´nin geldiği zaman = specifically when Ali came/come,

For the second form, there is a specific reference to the time when Ali comes/came. That said, you should come across with the first one most of the times.

Ali´nin geldiği zaman = (at) the time Ali came/come,

This is an adjective clause but acts as a time adverb.

 

 

Ali geldiği zaman = When Ali comes/came,

This is an adverbial clause in that you have the subject in nominative case (no suffix)

as in

Ali gelince = when Ali comes/came,

Ben gelince = when I come/came

or

Ali gelmeden önce = before Ali comes/came

Ben gelmeden önce = before I come/came,

 

etc.

6.       Abla
3647 posts
 14 Jul 2011 Thu 01:01 pm

I can somehow understand the difference in syntax but the nuances in meaning are hard to perceive, of course. Thanks for giving it a thought.

7.       Abla
3647 posts
 20 Aug 2011 Sat 07:05 pm

Gerund-equivalent. That´s the word my grammar uses. And now I understand that´s what is ment here:

Quote si++:

Ali geldiği zaman = When Ali comes/came,

This is an adverbial clause in that you have the subject in nominative case (no suffix)

as in

Ali gelince = when Ali comes/came,

Ben gelince = when I come/came

or

Ali gelmeden önce = before Ali comes/came

Ben gelmeden önce = before I come/came,

 

etc.

 

The inlayed subject, when it is a noun, is in nominative when the underlined structure is adverbial and could be changed into a gerund. This is the case in sentences like (a) Orhan geldiği gün yağmur yağdı. In other cases, like (b) Orhan´ın Rize´de kaldığı günlerde çok yağmur yağdı or (c) Orhan´ın geldiği gün yağmurlu idi, the underlined part is an adjective modifying the following noun.

I´m getting closer. But what is another problem is that you can´t trust a simple word: gibi at least makes two kinds of participle structures, and only one of them is gerund-equivalent:

            Annesi odaya girdiği gibi bebek ağlamayı bıraktı.

And my unfortunate e-t translation was from the other type.

            damlayı doktorun söylediği gibi kullan

You can´t stare at a key word but have to see the wholeness. The gibi case is clear when you understand that there are two different meanings but for sure new problems will pop up. I understand from the previous messages that zaman also in some cases can get involved with an adjective structure which is not gerund-equivalent and thus takes its inlayed subject in the genitive.

The actual problem was in the terminology. What is called a noun clause by one writer is called an adjective clause by another. Both terms are justified from the grammar point of view, but these are the small details which make things difficult.

Quote: Study Tech

The third barrier to study is the most important of the three. It´s the prime factor involved with stupidity and many other unwanted conditions.

This third barrier is the misunderstood word. A misunderstood definition or a not-comprehended definition or an undefined word can thoroughly block one’s understanding of a subject and can even cause one to abandon the subject entirely.

This milestone in the field of education has great application, but it was overlooked by every educator in history.

Going past a word or symbol for which one does not have a proper definition gives one a distinctly blank or washed-out feeling. The person will get a "not there" feeling and will begin to feel a nervous hysteria. These are manifestations distinct from either of the other two barriers.

 

Have you ever come to the bottom of a page only to realize you didn’t remember what you had just read? That is the phenomenon of a misunderstood word, and one will always be found just before the material became blank in your mind.

 

 

Sorry I´m being dull and gnagging about the same thing every week. There was supposed to be some kind of question here but I forgot it. Just thinking to myself. Wanted to tell I have a basic idea now.



Edited (8/21/2011) by Abla
Edited (8/21/2011) by Abla

8.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Aug 2011 Sun 10:50 am

I follow these namings without getting into too much detail:

Noun clause: A subclause that functions as a noun in the main clause

Erdem´in bize gelmesini beklemiyorduk. = We didn´t expect Erdem´s coming to us.

 

Adjective clause: A subclause that functions as an adjective in the main clause

Erdem´in bize getirdiği hediye çok hoştu = The gift (which) Erdem has brought to us was very nice.

 

Adverbial clause: A subclause that functions as an adverb in the main clause

Erdem bize geldiğinde yemek yiyorduk = We were having our dinner when Erdem came to us.

 

Sampanya liked this message
9.       Abla
3647 posts
 21 Aug 2011 Sun 12:00 pm

Clear as a bell. Thanks, si++!

10.       Abla
3647 posts
 07 Sep 2011 Wed 01:13 am

-dan dolayı is causing a small hysteria to me. I bagged this sentence from scalpel from another thread:

         Yeni bir ayakkabı almak istediğimden dolayı ben de gitmek istedim.

Is this what we can call an adverbial clause (or gerund-equivalent)? Of course, what I am after is the case of the inlayed subject if it was a noun.

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