It´s a terrible tragedy and I have been deeply moved by its scale. It´s hard to imagine one man was enough to cause so many deaths. The shooting is said to have lasted for 1.5 hour. During that time the kids were being slaughtered by this psycho and there was nobody to stop him.

I remember the bombing place, I visited it a few years ago. I´m very sad for the people of Norway, especially those who lost their friends and family in these outrageous circumstances.

Those computer games where killing a live creature is part of the game or TV movies where killing people serially is business usual may create a mentally ill person (as in this case)

Well, I wouldn´t overestimate WoW´s (was it wow or halo?) influence on him. Millions of people play it worldwide and not even 1% becomes murderers. I´d bet on his being a psychopath as no normal person would be able to carry out such a horrid act.

Conspiracy theories are beginning to show up, one has it that he was an illuminati and the attack was incited by it.

Be it or not, I said it may ... One in a million would be enough let alone 1% if it did, on the other hand.

Come on, videogames have NOTHING to do with this mental person´s actions. I play WoW and Halo, and I never felt the need to shoot somebody. Just like Sim-city has not turned me into a real city planner. People were killed by crazy gunmen before videogames existed!

We need to focus on what is important here, and that is the crazy racist ideas that he has. Blame racist ideologies and abuse of religion. Don´t take away any of the attention we need to give that problem, by bringing in video games. It has been researched for so many years. First is was rock music that would make people more sexual active. Than it was metal music that had hidden killing-messages. Now video games and violence. The number of psycho killers amongst game players is just as high as under non-gamers.

The Illuminati thing doesn´t convince me. I think he WANTED to be a sort of secret society member, to feel important. The whole "templar" group he was a part of is a bunch of crazy religious fanatics who have lost any contact with the real idea behind their religion. I think it´s good that they have held the court-hearing closed for media today, so this crazy person cannot give messages to his "friends" through the media. Lock him up and throw away the key.

I believe, many people have what may be called racist elements in their mind-sets. These racist elements remain dormant and they are rarely revealed outside the circle formed by intimate friends and family.

Since racism is a part of one´s social identity, it often co-exists with other social and territorial behaviours. There may be explicit or implicit racist elements in video games. We would expect at least the more obvious racist elements are already filtered out but some of the more indirect ones might still be there.  Since racism calls for reaction to reverse harm done by other races, it often necessitates violence which is amply present in video games. As a result video games may serve the first step for some. Games could help normalize certain unorthodox aspects of human behaviour. For many people t hough, this effect may not be seen at all.

Nevertheless, persons with exceptionally distorted mentalities do exist. Although extremely rare, these sick people are capable of giving substantial harm to society. It is obvious that many  of the offensive aspects of their personalities can be linked to violence they are exposed to in their environments but there are also cases where the source of violence can be linked to a mental disorder.

Unless, some paranoid people take a detailed look at seemingly innocent platforms like video games, there will always be another wacko who sees nothing wrong with doing the hunt in the real world. We need to be paranoid about racism if we want to stop it. Because racism is intertwined with our cultures.

I wonder what measures would be sufficient to eliminate racism. Is there a society entirely free of it? I´ve always considered Scandinavia (the modern one, not the Viking aera one) very open-minded* and friendly towards other cultures, aparently a black sheep can appear just about anywhere.

Most people are against rainforced security measures, complaining that they are invasive to one´s privacy. But, maybe, we need them? Especially nowadays when the Internet can teach you anything, from knitting to making bombs and it gives you immediate "fame" worldwide.

* although they sometimes push it, like what I read about Sweden introducing a no-gender policy in pre-schools to avoid imposing gender on the kids. Somehow I don´t see why it´s wrong to call girls "she" and boys "he", but maybe I´m just not open-minded enough.

Also, the Norwegian social services are somewhat too eager to take immigrants´ children away from their families

I don´t understand why some people can´t feel good about who they are without feeling threatened by other ideas and ways of life. 

I definitely don´t understand why Sweden would want to de-genderize society.  I can appreciate neutrality but I don´t see the need to remove my identity to feel equal to someone else (or to make everyone equal).  

In any case, I think there needs to be a seed of insanity in someone regardless of what they play, what they read, in order to committ these crimes.  I could read, play and do the same things with a totally different result.  Humans are variable creatures and are exposed to many variables in life...even science would tell you that the outcome is impossible to predict. 

I agree 100% si++. The games and movies desensitize us, so actual violence becomes less repugnant. We see horrible things on TV, our kids play hideous games....of course this has an effect. It is a type of "grooming" that normalizes antisocial behaviour. 

In fact the US Army used video games as a valuable tool for training.

"  That has not stopped the military from embracing video games to recruit and train a young generation of gamers who typically play commercial games such as "Modern Warfare 2," which passed $1 billion in sales in January."

I always asked myself If I am a good person and hate violence, why I like killing people in video games. I couldnt find an answer. Maybe I am not as good as I think.

I´d rather blame his own paranoia than video games. Besides, it´s pretty difficult these days to find a thirty-two year old who has never played a gorey video game. Fortunately not all of them turn out to be psychos. Although I agree that the amount of violence we´re being exposed to as the result of mega fast information flow is shocking.

The problem here is even pacifist, peace-loving people play these games and to kill people in these games give them joy. This makes me think. I dont blame games. I blame us. A monster lives in all of us and it waits to wake up. We must be very carefull.

I saw an interview with this man´s father yesterday. He was shocked and said a normal person would have never done it, so his son must have some issues. Also, I saw an interview with a Norwegian of Polish origin who survived the massacre on the island being shot in the arm. It was horrifying to hear about a man looking his victims face to face only to shoot them with dum-dum bullets, he heard them beg for mercy and still kill them in cold blood. people were hiding under the bodies of their dead friends as he was finishing off those he saw were alive with a shot in the head. Sick and revolting.

So we went back to the games... crazy... The mindset of racists and any other extremists is the danger here, not video games. No WoW character ever had to go to an island and kill people who couldn´t defend themselves. I have never seen a bomb made of fertilizer in Halo. Real life has enough violence that influences people, which doesn´t even come close to the violence you see in videogames. I´m sure the victims on that island played videogames too. 

I keep hoping that this action shows the dangers of racism, and will mean a shift away from the racists inspired parties that I see springing up every where around the world. He mentioned Wilders, the Dutch politician in his manifest... I hope people can see the link between Wilders and the uprising of crazy people like this. THAT link is much clearer than the link between his actions and videogames. Racism has no place in any modern society, and I hope people will start to understand this... it is the only positive thing that can come from a disaster like this.

You talk like racism is a seperate thing from human nature. The main problem is human nature. We are capable of doing everything we want and we just need an excuse. This time it is racism; next time it will be religion. I am trying to say we are dangerous creatures.

Much has been written and said in the past few days about Anders Behring Breivik´s anti-Islam terrorism. The guy hates Muslim, there´s no question about it, but what I find curious, is that he intended to fight them by killing his fellow countrymen. There´s a lot of talk in the anti-Islamic blogosphere about a coming civil war, when the Europeans will rise up and deport their Muslim neighbors. But with all the talk of deportations and ethnic cleansing and armed resistance, Breivik´s civil war didn´t target Muslims, it targeted the non-Muslims he saw as traitors, the ´cultural Marxist/multiculturalist elites of Europe´. From his point of view, Muslims weren´t even players in the game.

He has no problems with attacks against Muslims, as a way of encouraging Jihadi attacks, which will prove that Muslims are terrorists etc etc etc. But even in this case, Muslims are just tools in his fight against the European traitors.

There are Muslims among the victims in Utøya, but they weren´t killed as Muslims for their religion, they were killed as Norwegians for their political views. Anders Behring Breivik might be the symbol of anti-Islamic madness, but in a way, his terrorism is as anti-anti-Islamic as you can get.

One can not rationalize the irrational.  This man has a heart full of hate and a twisted ideology.  His actions where a way of validating his thought process and his greatest hope was to spark some sort of revolution of like thinkers (of which there are plenty...on both sides).  I am a Christian myself and I see this very simply...it is pure evil.  I don´t really want to go any further with that thought, just suffice to say if I had any doubts of its existance, I no longer do.   

True, however the flames were fanned by the likes of Daniel Pipes, Pamela Geller and others. This is not the first right wing terrorist attack, let´s not forget the Gabriel Giffords, the many anti abortion murders.......These people and others lend credibility to people like Anders Breivik. Violent games train them.

We need to rethink our society. I have never plaid one of those hideous games. Why on earth would I want to? I much prefer admiring the beauty of the passing clouds, smelling roses and other such activities. 

You know the thing about evil is, it´s sort of marbled in society and all of us. It´s like layers of evil swirled around. Nobody is pure evil, even Hitler has some woderful qualities. Have you ever seen film clips of him with children and friends? However, lurking in the next layer was a monster. 

Behring Breivik asked for an open trial and for a permission to wear a uniform in front of the judge. Fortunately he was denied all publicity. Part of the reason was that they didn´t want to give the man a chance to bring his sick ideas to light in public. In my opinion, a person who blindly kills innocent people and then tries to rise his voice to explain his point should be hit to his mouth with a rifle back.

Societies like those in Scandinavia are vulnerable against this kind of attacks. The Internet gives people a possibility to be in contact in a way never seen before. Unfortunately it unites maniacs, too. We had two school shootings in Finland within two years, and these boys are said to have found their inspiration in violence and misanthropy related sites.

What is worrying is the change of atmosphere which has happened in Europen countries. A few years ago racist talk was a sure way to show one´s lack of culture. Nowadays these "immigration critics" are considered respectable citizens and even educated people are accompanying them at least silently. Maybe what happened in Norway will open some eyes. If it was an al-Qaida attack there would be a hell loose here.

Norway: Justifying terrorism

Following the recent terror attack in Norway, there´s been a few different responses from the right-wing side, both politicians and pundits. Though the left-wing/media reaction to them all is the same (´you´re supporting terrorism´ ), I think there´s a big difference between them:


1. Agreeing with Breivik´s ideas

For example, Mario Borghezio, MEP for the Italian Northern League, said he agreed with Breivik´s "opposition to Islam and his explicit accusation that Europe has surrendered before putting up a fight against its Islamisation". Geert Wilders said he couldn´t be held responsible for ´an isolated idiot who abuses freedom-loving anti-Islam ideals in a violent way, even though others might like to see it that way´.

As Daniel Cohn-Bendit, co-president of the Green bloc in the European Parliament, says: "So much of what he wrote could have been said by any right-wing politician."

Breivik´s terrorist act doesn´t mean by extension that everything he believed in wrong. There´s a big difference between thinking there´s a problem with multiculturalism or Islam or the EU, and thinking all Muslims are animals (as per Breivik´s manifesto). Sadly enough, at this point in time, nobody´s making that distinction. If you hold right-wing ideas, you´re by extension justifying terrorism.

2. Justifying Breivik´s attack

This line of reasoning is used by people who say terrorism is wrong, but they understand why Breivik got to that point where he felt obligated to commit terrorism. For example, Erik Hellsborn (Sweden Democrats), who wrote that the attacks were the fault of mass immigration and Islamization. "The ultimate responsibility is with the perpetrator, but if you are to discuss the underlying reasons which motivated him then it was caused by multiculturalism."

It´s a fine line between agreeing with some of Breivik´s ideas and seeing why they would bring him to commit mass murder. Supposedly, those people are not supporting terrorism. But the minute you use the word ´but´ - there´s no way around it. The difference between this line of reasoning and that which understands why a cartoon would send Muslims over the edge is not substantive. Both blame the victim for thinking differently and therefore forcing their killers to act.

3. Supporting Breivik´s attack

For example, Jacques Coutela (Front National) who described Breivik as an ´icon´ and ´defender of the West´ and wrote that "the reason for the Norway terror attacks: fighting the Muslim invasion, that´s what people don´t want you to know."

I understand your point alameda, but I can not agree.  The individuals who committed these crimes where by in large mentally ill.  As far as nobody being pure evil, I strongly disagree.  Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths (including the deaths of the German soldiers he sacrificed for his own ambitions).  Any kindness he showed was to further the facade and to mask his desire for ultimate power.  He was a sociopath...not capable of REAL genuine kindness unless it suited his purpose.  He did not play video games either.  In fact, most of the most prolific and horrifying people in history did not.  I am not advocating violent games but I think they are a much smaller factor in these cases than is made out.  

Elisabeth, if it were so easy to know evil. All of us have evil in us, some more, some less. I think it develops one way or another during our lives. We choose with our tiny "free will" which way to go, and in doing so, we lend strength to different parts of our selves. 

In thinking of things as pure evil, we miss the insidious nature of evil. There are, of course, psychopathic personalities, which in most opinions are pretty evil, certainly, they are not compassionate people. It´s all about themselves and what they desire. 

Hitler was a very sick man, He was reputed to have syphllis, parkinsons, aspergers, schitzophrenia, amphetime addict and a whole litany of health and personality problems, but I don´t think he was actually a psychopath. He is not responsible for all that is attributed to him, rather it was a collective of social & economic issues that were the cause of all those horrors. It never is just one person or cause, it´s always like several streams running into a river and the matter of opportunity. 

I think all the hideous games of murder and mayhem that are taken so lightly pattern our minds to be more accepting of things. In a personality that is more susceptible, (like they encourage and promote them to do awful things. They feel they have some acceptance, they are doing what others would have liked to do.

When and if something is seen as so unacceptable as to be unthinkable, if they are considered "uncool" and they would be totally socially ostracized, there is less chance they will act on the impulses. 

He was sick in the head and that´s why he did it, not because he played a video game. Talking about his crime, he wasn´t delusioned, he didn´t claim not to know the difference between fiction and reality. He knew he had to kill these innocent people because he entertained the silly idea his was the right way of life and those supporting oppossing ideas had to be put to death to make his case loud and clear. This monster wanted fame and chose the sick one.

The absurd thing is western world invaded muslim countries by its culture, technology, life style, literature, science, tourism, etc.. but some people dont want Muslims to invade their countries too. You cant escape from it. Because you showed western world as a heaven for your purposes and now everybody wants to immigrate there for a better future. I have never believed western world is a some kind of heaven, it is impossible for me to feel safe there.

Is it possible for anyone to feel completely safe anywhere?  I personally don´t think so but I still have faith that the majority of people in the world are good and that most of us are appalled by these things no matter what religion the perpetrator is/was.  The saddest part of all of this is that these people have forced so many of us to mistrust our fellow human beings.  

Just in case:

Norwegian retail chain removes violent games and toys following massacre

Coop Norway, one of the largest retailing stores in the Nordic country, has taken 51 games and weapon-like toys off its shelves in the wake a twin massacre committed July 22.

The retail chain will remove a number of high-profile violent games, including Sniper Ghost Warrior, Homefront, Counter-Strike, World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, according to a report from daily Rogalands Avis.

Anders Behring Breivik, who has confessed to killing at least 76 people in a bomb attack in Oslo and a mass shooting at a youth camp on island close to the capital, wrote in a manifesto published shortly before the attacks that he played the games.

Source: here

You see, at least some people are waking up to the reality... I wish the same happened in Turkey. I don´t think there is any sort of control regarding foreign video game titles. Nobody understands, nobody cares...

When you look around, you can see young people who have become obsessed to video games. I know a teenager who spends all his mornings trying to make virtual money to afford weapons to kill online opponents in the evening. The session continues until he falls asleep just before the dawn. All his life is virtual. He has the tell-tale signs of a looming obsessive compulsive personality disorder. Experts say, once the brain gets into this cycle, it becomes unable to learn anything that requires concentration. Affected individuals must let their brain rest for at least two months before getting ready for complex and long hauled learning activities. If this is not substantial harm, what is it then?

What about movies? What about books? What about songs? What about those dramatic Turkish love songs where people cry and sing about how they will die without the other person, how they have no life now that they are alone. How many suicides and murders have these caused? Come on... It is NOT a good thing that video games with violence have been banned. Let´s go back to the real killer...a lack of socialisation and raging racism.

Oh they removed the game? Glad to hear the problem is sorted now. Surely shops is the only way of obtaining a copy and nobody uses the Internet to go against the law...It amuses me how much people want to show they´re actually improving things by doing something that does not matter at all.

BM has a fair point: what´s next? Censorship of films and books? Increased security measures? Funny how people claiming to love their personal freedom cheer for censorship...The problem is not the game, but not educating children to showing them an alternative. Just like it´s not McDonald´s that is responsible for overweight children, eating habits are. You cannot treat all people like idiots unable to make informed choices only because somebody loses it. Can you say without doubt that if it hadn´t been for the game, he wouldn´t have done it? Yeah, I thought so.

Gokuyum, I agree people are attracted to places offering them better life, I am an immigrant myself and I do not regret it even a wee bit. The problem is when immigrants bring along the crap that made them leave their homeland first of all. When you make a decision about moving to a foreign country, you must realise you´re the one who will have to adapt as, apparently, the country functions better than yours. I am in a way glad the recent wave of riots went through Muslim countries. Maybe it´s the ease of access to information, the, as you indirectly call it, propaganda of success of the western countries, but it´s good to see people standing up for themselves against their rulers. Maybe, after all, I will live to see a major cultural shift in the Middle East and abolition of the barbaric Islamic tradition.

Si++ the right-wing politicians are doing what they can to save their face, a terrorist with right-wing tendencies may stop people from voting for right-wing politicians because of pejorative connotations. I, for one, would be happy to see a decline in the support of right-wingers, especially those extreme right ones

No matter what we discuss it eventually turns into a fight of mind-sets, political choices and cultural values.

You seem to have some sacred castles in your minds. You think books and movies must be exempt from censorship. Books and movies could actually be very important sources of inspiration for some. You don´t seem to realize, they do not harm a normal mind; the real harm is done to people with the tendencies. Moreover, books and movies can contain criminal elements; what about child porn, torture, sadism etc. I would not move a finger if somebody put the producer of the SAW sequel in prison. No matter how interesting, I would not mind if Bonnie and Clyde were never produced at all. The same goes for a number of Tarantino movies. I like them too but one must consider their influence on certain individuals.

I don´t want to ruin your holy castles but in my opinion, a well-defined censorship which is well laid out, transparent and simple enough to be understood by anyone is a necessity. This is already in place in the TV and movie sectors. Books and Video games must also be kept under scrutiny.

You would say, I sound like a conservative; well I don´t call myself one. I hate to be classified into some category and have a need to sound like a member of a certain political group. Isn´t that a kind of censorship? Can´t we think without remembering certain guidelines produced by Mr. Unknown? Luckily, I have a nihilist side which is still going strong.

I believe censorship should only go as far as rating the age of target audience rather than banning the content itself, unless the content is illegal and abusive. Just because there are mentally challenged people out there, why should everybody be deprived of entertainment? It is a bit like banning Kinder Surprise Eggs in the US because there is a toy inside and somebody decided it consitutes bigger a threat than easy access to guns.

I do agree with you that the world would do just fine without films like Saw, but I don´t feel in position to decide who should see what. After all, we can´t expect all people to watch Little House on the Prairie. The films released are censored according to individual country´s policies. Some content unavailable int he US can be seen in Europe without problems.

I wouldn´t mind sensible censorship, but it is hard to define "sensible."

You certainly have a point. Nevertheless, we must admit, no matter how advanced our societies can be, they all have structural flaws, shortcomings and persistent problems. Some of these problems may be related to our basic notions about freedoms and their limits wbich can be the subject of another lengthy discussion.

As you say, a "sensible" censorship (though these two concepts hardly fit together) might be what we are looking for.

It´s not about prohibition of the games and violent videos. It´s rather about the social acceptability of them. It´s about the fact that they have not only become socialy acceptable, but are actually preferred to other types of entertainments. What person prefers to see hideous violence that dehumanized the practicioners, what does it say about a society? 

You show your absolute contempt here, and during Ramadan too. You really don´t get it do you? I wonder just who is the barbarian here?

I have not read this guys manefesto or done any extensive research on him so I don´t know to what extent he played these games and we will never know whether or not they truely influenced him with regards to his attack.  I am just curious, if the guy was obsessed with the movie Bambi, would we be pulling that off the shelves of stores too? 

Perhaps I am being a little hard headed about this but once a government goes down the road to censorship there is little that can be done to go back. 

I didn´t read it either. I don´t want that garbage in my mind. Howevever, there is such a thing as good taste, self censorship, rather than external censorship. We (the human race) could use with a bit more self censorship & introspection as to what our values are.

There is much that is censored and there is no complaint about it. Think about it seriously, do you really thing absolutly no censorship is a good idea? 

I think we as parents can censor what our children watch because they are not mature enough to know right from wrong.  However, censoring grown people is what I have the problem with.  I think it dangerous for a government to assume that everyone will go crazy because of a video game. We will always have people who commit terrible crimes.  After 9/11, the US implemented the Patriot Act which everyone went nuts over saying that it violated our civil rights.  Maybe this isn´t exactly the same thing but it is going down the same path...in my opinion.    

I absolutely don´t have a problem with a private business not selling something because it does not conform to their values or mission. This also gives the public the opportunity to boycott a particular business if they so choose.  

Let me think...yeap, still those who mutilate girls, sentence people to death because they converted, pour acid over the face of unveiled women and marry nine-year-olds all in the name of law

After so many years, you still cannot read me properly (not that you need to). I don´t have anything against people whose religion means going to church on Sunday or mosque on Friday, eating or not particular kinds of food or praying facing any direction. I really don´t as long as they keep their religion a personal thing rather than force it upon others violently. And yes, I´ve heard it all about what the real Islam is, what is and what is not in Qran etc. Still, it doesn´t make any difference to those who treat it as the word of God and consider their bloodbath justified. I am not talking about regular crimes, I only mean those who people think they are obliged to commit because that´s how their interpret their holy book. Even more, when the whole societies become barbaric because they think it´s the way of God.

You don´t strike me as a person likely to speak in favour of the above so obviously my comment was not aimed at you

You, of course realize, what you are doing is repeating hateful Islamaphobe talking points. However saying it does not make it so. Do you think pounding out the same tired talking points over and over again will cause it to be?

I admit, it is possible some ignorant people do "in the name of XXX" as they do for other causes, and have done so with or wthout religion. Depravity knows no color lines or borders, it infects all societies. We could go on and on trading what XXX does and what ZZZ does...it does get tedious.  

Oh right, it´s better not to mention it at all, that will surely solve the problem Sorry if you´re bored by my open disgust at crimes committed in the name of religions, but I strongly feel that we need to educate societies about the black pages in religious books of their neighbours

My wife occassionally calls me a selfish person; that is after quite a few decades of joint life and on top of a romantic background. I don´t carry a mirror; I think, I am quite alright but it seems many of my opinions are not shared by everyone. This calls to mind how difficult it is to get along well with people.

On a larger scale, society is very much that way; no matter how we try we can´t please everyone. Regardless of what we are discussing, there will always be different opinions. Remember people don´t pay you because you are good; nor do they marry your because you have a golden heart, you can´t win a contract just because you have a golden heart; even if you are Jesus Christ, there will be more people who don´t think like you than those who do.

I believe even Socrates would need a break from philosophy once in a while. A pro-freedom Pole having a disgust for religions can´t get along with an American pro-Muslim woman. Yet, they can talk about flowers and the stuff. They can talks about a zillion of other matters that has nothing to do with religion. This is exactly how common people get along; and it is a proven basis for tolerance a quality which is usually harder to find than faith.

Talking about our differences is far more stimulating than agreeing that flowers are beautiful.   Which they are...of course!  RIGHT???