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Modalities
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1.       Abla
3647 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 06:34 pm

-meli-necessitative,

1. are you sure it is not an adjective derived with -li-suffix from the infinitive base just like şekerli, dikkatlı, ümitli, meaning ´one that has this quality of being into this action´? Just a guess. There is something doubtful about its syntactic performance and I wonder if it is a verb at all.

2. Baba evde olmalı. Which ones of these meanings are possible:

         - ´Father must stay at home (because he has no other choice)´.

         - ´Father must stay at home (because someone has forced him to)´.

         - ´Father must be at home (I´m certain)´.

3. Baba evde olmamalı. If it is a manipulative sentence, does it mean

         - ´Father must not be at home´ OR

         - ´Father doesn´t have to be at home.´?

2.       si++
3785 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 06:42 pm

 

Quoting Abla

-meli-necessitative,

1. are you sure it is not an adjective derived with -li-suffix from the infinitive base just like şekerli, dikkatlı, ümitli, meaning ´one that has this quality of being into this action´? Just a guess. There is something doubtful about its syntactic performance and I wonder if it is a verb at all.

2. Baba evde olmalı. Which ones of these meanings are possible:

         - ´Father must stay at home (because he has no other choice)´.

         - ´Father must stay at home (because someone has forced him to)´.

         - ´Father must be at home (I´m certain)´.

3. Baba evde olmamalı. If it is a manipulative sentence, does it mean

         - ´Father must not be at home´ OR

         - ´Father doesn´t have to be at home.´?

 

Yep. I´m pretty sure. Without checking anything.

Notice that it´s very similar to English construction. Why?

"x-li y" suffix means "y having something which contains/accompanied by x.

English construction: having + infinitive

Turkish construction: having + infinitive

3.       tunci
7149 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 08:42 pm

 

Quoting Abla

-meli-necessitative,

1. are you sure it is not an adjective derived with -li-suffix from the infinitive base just like şekerli, dikkatlı, ümitli, meaning ´one that has this quality of being into this action´? Just a guess. There is something doubtful about its syntactic performance and I wonder if it is a verb at all.

2. Baba evde olmalı. Which ones of these meanings are possible:

         - ´Father must stay at home (because he has no other choice)´.

         - ´Father must stay at home (because someone has forced him to)´.

         - ´Father must be at home (I´m certain)´.

3. Baba evde olmamalı. If it is a manipulative sentence, does it mean

         - ´Father must not be at home´ OR

         - ´Father doesn´t have to be at home.´?

 

 Malı,meli  marks the modal functions of necessity/ and assumption.

- ´Father must stay at home --> may convey the necessity in a context where he is the only person without whom a situation will be incomplete.

 

- ´Father must stay at home ---> It may be also interpreted as an assumption in a context where the speaker has reason to believe that Father is at home.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Baba evde olmamalı ---> necessity and assumption applies to negative forms too.

 

1.  It is necessary that Father must not be at home when we throw a party. 

    Parti verdiğimizde baba evde olmamalı.

 

2.  Assuming that  [I believe] Father must not be at home now as there is no lights on at home.

Evde ışıklar kapalı olduğuna göre baba evde olmamalı.

    I believe

    In my opinon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-meli and -li suffixes has no relation as far as I know.

 

4.       si++
3785 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 09:01 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 Malı,meli  marks the modal functions of necessity/ and assumption.

- ´Father must stay at home --> may convey the necessity in a context where he is the only person without whom a situation will be incomplete.

 

- ´Father must stay at home ---> It may be also interpreted as an assumption in a context where the speaker has reason to believe that Father is at home.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Baba evde olmamalı ---> necessity and assumption applies to negative forms too.

 

1.  It is necessary that Father must not be at home when we throw a party. 

    Parti verdiğimizde baba evde olmamalı.

 

2.  Assuming that  [I believe] Father must not be at home now as there is no lights on at home.

Evde ışıklar kapalı olduğuna göre baba evde olmamalı.

    I believe

    In my opinon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-meli and -li suffixes has no relation as far as I know.

 

 

Well, tunci,

 

First, use your brain, rationalise. A suffix with 2 syllables cannot be created out of nothing.

Secondly, use your eyes. It´s right there and is begging for you to look at it more closely.

meli = me-li

5.       tunci
7149 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 09:10 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Well, tunci,

 

First, use your brain, rationalise. A suffix with 2 syllables cannot be created out of nothing.

Secondly, use your eyes. It´s right there and is begging for you to look at it more closely.

meli = me-li

 

 did you wake up from the wrong side of the bed today again ??

You use your brain . and check your lingo when you adress people ..

meli is necessitive --> Gitmeli

li --> "with" --> bahçeli ev --> house with garden.

simple is that..

 

6.       si++
3785 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 09:17 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 did you wake up from the wrong side of the bed today again ??

You use your brain . and check your lingo when you adress people ..

meli is necessitive --> Gitmeli

li --> "with" --> bahçeli ev --> house with garden.

simple is that..

 

 

You need to improve your analytical skills.

7.       tunci
7149 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 09:21 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

You need to improve your analytical skills.

 

 And you need to improve your manners mate which is more important sometimes when you teach people.

8.       scalpel
1472 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 09:38 pm

 

Quoting Abla

-meli-necessitative,

1. are you sure it is not an adjective derived with -li-suffix from the infinitive base just like şekerli, dikkatlı, ümitli, meaning ´one that has this quality of being into this action´? Just a guess. There is something doubtful about its syntactic performance and I wonder if it is a verb at all.

 

-li always added to a noun. This noun either be an original one or one which is made from a verb stem by adding -me/-ma:

a) noun+li => noun/adjective

şeker-li (çay) , tuz-lu (yemek), örtü-lü (ödenek), boya-lı (duvar)

Amerika-lı, Ankara-lı, kent-li, okul-lu

b) verb+me/ma+li/lı => necessitative mood

yaz-malı-yım

yaz-malı-sın

yaz-malı

yaz-malı-y-ız

yaz-malı-sınız

yaz-malı-lar

 

 

 

Abla liked this message
9.       Abla
3647 posts
 19 Nov 2011 Sat 03:21 pm

Thank you, si++, tunci, scalpel. The connection with the adjective suffix looks clear from the surface, even to the level of meaning but in derivation especially everything is not always as it looks like. It was just a thought.

What do you say, can Baba evde olmamalı also mean ´Father doesn´t have to/need to be at home´? Similarly, what does Bayanlar makyaj yapmalı mı? Yapmamalı mı? mean exactly?

10.       scalpel
1472 posts
 19 Nov 2011 Sat 05:10 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

What do you say, can Baba evde olmamalı also mean ´Father doesn´t have to/need to be at home´? Similarly, what does Bayanlar makyaj yapmalı mı? Yapmamalı mı? mean exactly?

 

Baba evde olmamalı

a) i.e. He is either at work or on the way back home/ not yet back home

b) i.e. One of my friend will visit me and I don´t want my father to meet him.  

c) i.e. He should go out to work instead of staying at home.

 

Bayanlar Kadınlar makyaj yapmalı mı yapmamalı mı?

=> which is better for women, to put on make up or not? 

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