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Modalities
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10.       scalpel
1472 posts
 19 Nov 2011 Sat 05:10 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

What do you say, can Baba evde olmamalı also mean ´Father doesn´t have to/need to be at home´? Similarly, what does Bayanlar makyaj yapmalı mı? Yapmamalı mı? mean exactly?

 

Baba evde olmamalı

a) i.e. He is either at work or on the way back home/ not yet back home

b) i.e. One of my friend will visit me and I don´t want my father to meet him.  

c) i.e. He should go out to work instead of staying at home.

 

Bayanlar Kadınlar makyaj yapmalı mı yapmamalı mı?

=> which is better for women, to put on make up or not? 

11.       Abla
3648 posts
 19 Nov 2011 Sat 05:17 pm

For the meaning of ´it is not necessary for him, he doesn´t have to´ is ihtiyac olmak the only possibility?

12.       Faruk
1607 posts
 19 Nov 2011 Sat 05:25 pm

 

Quoting Abla

For the meaning of ´it is not necessary for him, he doesn´t have to´ is ihtiyac olmak the only possibility?

 

No, it is not the only possibility.

 

You can also use gerek olmak, lazım olmak, zorunlu olmak.

 

Bunu yapmaya(yapmasına) ihtiyacı yok.

Bunu yapmasına gerek yok

Bunu yapması lazım değil

Bunu yapması zorunlu değil

13.       Abla
3648 posts
 19 Nov 2011 Sat 05:27 pm

Clear. Faruk, thanks.

14.       scalpel
1472 posts
 20 Nov 2011 Sun 12:46 am

 

Quoting Abla

For the meaning of ´it is not necessary for him, he doesn´t have to´ is ihtiyac olmak the only possibility?

 

Actually ihtiyacı olmak is not one of the possibilities.. I think what confuses you is the English verb need which has two different uses.

1) need (verb transitive)=want, require => ihtiyacı var/yok; muhtaç/ muhtaç değil :

Bahçenin yağmura ihtiyacı var - The garden needs rain

Bunun hatırlatılmasına ihtiyacı yoktu - He didn´t need to be reminded about it

Yardıma ihtiyacı var mı? - Does he need any help?

Sana muhtacım - I need you

Yardıma muhtaç değil - he doesn´t need help

2) need (anomalous finite verb) = be obliged; be necessary => gerekiyor; gerekli; lazım

Gitmen gerekiyor mu? Gitmen gerekli mi? Gitmen lazım mı? - Need you go yet?

Hayır, gerekmiyor. Hayır, gerekli değil. Hayır, lazım değil - No, I needn´t

Henüz gitmen gerekmiyor, gerekiyor mu? - You needn´t go yet, need you?

 The other Turkish words and suffixes expressing an immediate, future or past obligation or necessity, and their possible English equivalents are as follows:

i) -malı, -meli / -mamalı, -memeli

Onu yapmalısın - you must do that

Onu yapmamalısın - you must not do that

ii) zorunda; mecburiyetinde; mecbur

Onu yapmak zorundasın/mecburiyetindesin, Onu yapmaya mecbursun - You have to do that

Onu yapmak zorunda/ mecburiyetinde değilsin, Onu yapmaya mecbur değilsin - You don´t have to do that.

a) 

15.       Abla
3648 posts
 20 Nov 2011 Sun 08:16 am

Thanks for your effort again, scalpel. Do you mean ihtiyaç olmak governs only nouns? Stubborn as I am I even checked the first 1691 pages from Google hits and found only a couple of cases with indirect infinitive object:

         Kimsenin kucağına oturmaya ihtiyacım yok.

So, I guess the case is clear. Anyway, as modalities always tend to move into more abstract meanings, this structure might be on its way into expressing ´not being necessary´ also. The development of modal expressions is surprisingly alike in non-related languages.

16.       scalpel
1472 posts
 20 Nov 2011 Sun 09:48 am

Good point.

noun+e/a ihtiyaç+PE var/yok

-mek form of a verb is noun (verbal noun)

-e/a is one of five cases of Turkish nouns.

otur-mak-a ihtiyacım yok.

..and yes, it must be clear now

 

 

17.       Abla
3648 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 03:43 pm

Is -(e)bil-/-eme- possibility also as wide in meaning?

 

         ‘The restaurant can not accept credit cards.’

         ‘The restaurant may not accept credit cards.’

 

Can they both be expressed Lokanta kredi kartları kabul edemez?

18.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:00 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Is -(e)bil-/-eme- possibility also as wide in meaning?

 

         ‘The restaurant can not accept credit cards.’

Restoran kredi kartlarını kabul edemez/edemiyor

         ‘The restaurant may not accept credit cards.’

Restoran kredi kartlarını kabul etmeyebilir (probability)

Restoran kredi kartlarını kabul edemez (permission)

 

 

Can they both be expressed Lokanta kredi kartları kabul edemez?

 

may = -ebilir (probability)

may = -emez (permission)

 



Edited (11/21/2011) by si++

19.       Abla
3648 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:18 pm

I suspected something like that. Thanks, si++.

20.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:20 pm

 

Quoting Abla

I suspected something like that. Thanks, si++.

 

Actually I have added some more.

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