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20.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:20 pm

 

Quoting Abla

I suspected something like that. Thanks, si++.

 

Actually I have added some more.

21.       Abla
3648 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:24 pm

These are important differences which do not show in the dictionary. Very clear now.

22.       tunci
7149 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:31 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

Is -(e)bil-/-eme- possibility also as wide in meaning?

 

         ‘The restaurant can not accept credit cards.’

         ‘The restaurant may not accept credit cards.’

 

Can they both be expressed Lokanta kredi kartları kabul edemez?

 

 

 

The restaurant can not accept credit cards.

Here , AbilMEk is how we translate it.

Restoran kredi karti kabul edemez. --> But in practice this sort of "warnings" are in Aorist tense ;

" Restoran kredi karti kabul etmez " the proper and offical way that is used in real life is;

" [Bu restoranda] Kredi karti gecmez " ---> The credit card is not accepted.

  ##  Mostly this structures are in expressed in passive form ;

  " Kredi karti kabul edilmez "-->  [ No credit cards accepted]

" [Bu restoranda] Sigara icilmez"  --> No smoking [in the restaurant]

" Buraya park edilmez " --> No parking here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

But when we return to the main question; lets translate them without the concern of its usage  in real life ;

 " Restoran kredi karti kabul edemez " ---> The restaurant can not [unable to] accept credit cards.

 In the sentence above, the meaning of  incapability,ineligibility,lacking of power,unable to perform to accepting credit cards. In other words, because there is a legal restrictions or any other reasons that the restaurant can not accept credit cards.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

‘The restaurant may not accept credit cards.’

Restoran kredi karti kabul etmeyebilir.

In the sentence above ; there is a " possiblity of not to be accepted credit cards", It may accept or may not, There is no guarantee that restaurant will accept credit cards, There is MAY or not MAY.

Again, in practice we have dont tend to use "May not form " [ -meyebilir ] in warnings.

Aorist tense is dominates the " warnings and notifications "

as exceptions may be in positive notifications ;

" Sigara icilebilir " but again this is not favorable to use.

Note : Mind the " missing dots " in turkish letters as I was unable to put them in this post for some reason



Edited (11/21/2011) by tunci

23.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:39 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

‘The restaurant may not accept credit cards.’

Restoran kredi karti kabul etmeyebilir.

In the sentence above ; there is a " possiblity of not to be accepted credit cards", It may accept or may not, There is no guarantee that restaurant will accept credit cards, There is MAY or not MAY.

 

 

Ahh... Tunci, here you have touched on an important point in English, which is ambiguous.

 

The distinction between can and may has been worn away over the years.

 

A few decades ago: 

CAN = ability

MAY = permission

 

so if as little children we asked our teacher "Can I go to the toilet?" she would say "I am sure you are able to, but you need to ask if I will let you", meaning we should ask "May I go to the toilet".

 

Now can and may are pretty much interchangeable. So much so that you would normally say "Can" for both.

 

Can you go: Gidebilir misin

Can you go: Gitmek için müsaadeniz var mı?

 

From this, may (which used to denote either permission or possibility) now normally only refers to possibility

 

He may go: gidebilir, belki gidecek, gitmesi olasılıklı v.b.

 

You need the full context to make sense of can and may in English

 

 

 

tunci liked this message
24.       tunci
7149 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:49 pm

 

Quoting MarioninTurkey

 

 

Ahh... Tunci, here you have touched on an important point in English, which is ambiguous.

 

The distinction between can and may has been worn away over the years.

 

A few decades ago: 

CAN = ability

MAY = permission

 

so if as little children we asked our teacher "Can I go to the toilet?" she would say "I am sure you are able to, but you need to ask if I will let you", meaning we should ask "May I go to the toilet".

 

Now can and may are pretty much interchangeable. So much so that you would normally say "Can" for both.

 

Can you go: Gidebilir misin

Can you go: Gitmek için müsaadeniz var mı?

 

From this, may (which used to denote either permission or possibility) now normally only refers to possibility

 

He may go: gidebilir, belki gidecek, gitmesi olasılıklı v.b.

 

You need the full context to make sense of can and may in English

 

 

 

 

 Good old days he !...Evet, we have same problem about the way kids,youngsters,even adults adressing impolite way and are losing the gentleness and politeness..

That would be still quite polite if we just add "Efendim " in front or in the end of our requests when we ask permissions..

Gidebilir miyim Efendim...?

Efendim gidebilir miyim..?

25.       Abla
3648 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 05:32 pm

Thank you for your prompt answer, tunci. I hope you get your dots back soon. Thank you, too, MarioninTurkey. You reminded me may has a deontic meaning, too.

I just love this verb form:

         et|me|yebil|ir

It is like one of these Russian wooden dolls: when you go from left to right always the previous unit fits into the next one and at the same time we move from more concrete level (action, negation) to more abstract meanings (possibility). Could there be a

         ed|eme|yebil|ir ´may not be able to accept´

also?

 



Edited (11/21/2011) by Abla [Misspelling]

26.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 06:05 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Thank you for your prompt answer, tunci. I hope you get your dots back soon. Thank you, too, MarioninTurkey. You reminded me may has a deontic meaning, too.

I just love this verb form:

         et|me|yebil|ir

It is like one of these Russian wooden dolls: when you go from left to right always the previous unit fits into the next one and at the same time we move from more concrete level (action, negation) to more abstract meanings (possibility). Could there be a

         ed|eme|yebi|lir ´may not be able to accept´

also?

 

 

There could, if you mean probability (not permission).

27.       Abla
3648 posts
 22 Nov 2011 Tue 08:15 am

I´m sorry I´m being boring again but when certain thing gets cleared other questions rise up.

It is clear now that –meli- stands for both obligation and certainty just like -(e)bil- has the meaning of ability/permission and probability. What if there is a combination of

1) ability and certainty: ‘He must be able to swim 50 metres. (We have practiced a lot.)’

2) ability and obligation: ‘He must be able to swim 50 metres. (Otherwise he won’t be accepted to the course.)’

3) Inability and possibility (´He may not be able to run´ is edemebilir, is ability and possibility edebilebilir?

4) What about necessity and possibility (‘He may have to run&rsquo?

________________________

And yet another small thing. Trying to find examples of past certainty I found hits like Adlı tıp uzmanlarının tahminine göre yedi ya da sekiz gün evvel ölmüş olmalıydı. I understand this is a pluperfect sentence. If instead of ölmüş olmalıydı there was ölmeliydi would it still have the meaning of past certainty?

________________________

These small questions look exhausting. I will try to connect the information in the replies into some kind of brief when I am finished so that it will be in an easier form for everyone to use (if I can).

28.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Nov 2011 Tue 11:21 am

 

Quoting Abla

I´m sorry I´m being boring again but when certain thing gets cleared other questions rise up.

It is clear now that –meli- stands for both obligation and certainty just like -(e)bil- has the meaning of ability/permission and probability. What if there is a combination of

1) ability and certainty: ‘He must be able to swim 50 metres. (We have practiced a lot.)’

50 m yüzebilmeli

 2) ability and obligation: ‘He must be able to swim 50 metres. (Otherwise he won’t be accepted to the course.)’

50 m yüzebilmeli

3) Inability and possibility (´He may not be able to run´ is edemebilir, is ability and possibility edebilebilir?

Koşamayabilir = He may not be able to run

Koşamayabilir = He may not be able to run

Koşamayabilir = He may not be able to run


4) What about necessity and possibility (‘He may have to run&rsquo?

Koşmak zorunda kalabilir

________________________

And yet another small thing. Trying to find examples of past certainty I found hits like Adlı tıp uzmanlarının tahminine göre yedi ya da sekiz gün evvel ölmüş olmalıydı. I understand this is a pluperfect sentence. If instead of ölmüş olmalıydı there was ölmeliydi would it still have the meaning of past certainty?

Yes/No

ölmeli idi = He had to die

ölmeli idi = ölmüş olmalı idi = must have died (if the context allows)

________________________

These small questions look exhausting. I will try to connect the information in the replies into some kind of brief when I am finished so that it will be in an easier form for everyone to use (if I can).

I am waiting to see it.You are the one to come up with something like that.

 

 

29.       Abla
3648 posts
 22 Nov 2011 Tue 04:55 pm

For sure these things have been collected many times somewhere. It looks like a job that a professor could give to a seminar student. But how to put it in a simple way for a learner and  -  more than that  -  as a learner is another question. There are so many factors to take into account.

Is ´he may be able to run´ koşabilebilir?

Morphologically, -(e)bil- can come after -meli- but not vice versa, is it?

 

30.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Nov 2011 Tue 06:14 pm

 

Quoting Abla

For sure these things have been collected many times somewhere. It looks like a job that a professor could give to a seminar student. But how to put it in a simple way for a learner and  -  more than that  -  as a learner is another question. There are so many factors to take into account.

Is ´he may be able to run´ koşabilebilir?

Grammatically may not be incorrect but this form is not used at all.

Instead:

Muhtemelen koşabilir = Probably he is able to run

Morphologically, -(e)bil- can come after -meli- but not vice versa, is it?

No.

Let´s analyse:

-ebil- is actually v-a/-e bil- so -a/-e (hence -ebil-) needs a verb stem.

-meli also needs a verb stem

that means -ebil-meli is OK

 

 



Edited (11/22/2011) by si++ [Second q]

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