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gerekmek
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40.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 16 Jan 2012 Mon 09:30 pm

 

Quoting Abla

How can I express a subclause necessity in the past when the main clause is in present tense and the subclause is

a) an interrogative content clause (indirect question)?

“Sometimes she wonders if she should have left a long time ago.”

Bazen uzun zaman önce terketse miydi(m)/bıraksa mıydı(m) diye düşünüyor.

b) a declarative content clause?

“Sometimes she thinks she should have left a long time ago.”

Bazen uzun zaman önce terketmeliydi(m) diye düşünüyor.

I am afraid it has to do with gerekmek again.

 

 



Edited (1/16/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (1/16/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (1/16/2012) by gokuyum [a few changes]
Edited (1/16/2012) by gokuyum

scalpel liked this message
41.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 16 Jan 2012 Mon 09:41 pm

The important thing here is I started to sentence with third person then I used first person and then I finished it with a third person personal ending. This is because "diye"  function as a quote. I could use third person always but in the second sentence when I used third person in the middle it didnt make sense.

42.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 16 Jan 2012 Mon 09:43 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

The important thing here is I started to sentence with third person then I used first person and then I finished it with a third person personal ending. This is because "diye"  function as a quote. I could use third person always but in the second sentence when I used third person in the middle it didnt make sense.

 

Well it makes sense now. So I could use third person everywhere in the sentences.



Edited (1/16/2012) by gokuyum

43.       Abla
3647 posts
 16 Jan 2012 Mon 09:47 pm

I have understood diye structure is always a direct quote. It is a funny, transparent piece of language but I never succeeded to use it correct until now.

gokuyum, thanks for enlightening me.

44.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 16 Jan 2012 Mon 09:49 pm

 

Quoting Abla

I have understood diye structure is always a direct quote. It is a funny, transparent piece of language but I never succeeded to use it correct until now.

gokuyum, thanks for enlightening me.

I am not sure about those sentences abla. Third person and first person both make sense. There must be an explanation for it.

 



Edited (1/16/2012) by gokuyum

45.       Abla
3647 posts
 16 Jan 2012 Mon 10:03 pm

Maybe the structure is on its path of grammaticalization, kind of loosing its connection with the direct quote. Maybe diye will be a dead particle in the future with no connection to demek. Just a guess.

46.       scalpel
1472 posts
 16 Jan 2012 Mon 10:56 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

I am not sure about those sentences abla. Third person and first person both make sense. There must be an explanation for it.

 

 

Maybe the explanation is:

She is thinking about herself:

Bazen uzun zaman önce terketmeliydim diye düşünüyor

sometimes she thinks she should have left a long time ago

She is thinking about someone else:

 

Bazen uzun zaman önce terketmeliydi diye düşünüyor

Sometimes she thinks he should have left a long time ago

 



Edited (1/16/2012) by scalpel [talking->thinking]

47.       Abla
3647 posts
 16 Jan 2012 Mon 11:30 pm

Quote:scalpel

Bazen uzun zaman önce terketmeliydi diye düşünüyor

Sometimes she thinks he should have left a long time ago

And it works without adding the pronoun? I have learned if there is no personal pronoun the thoughts will go to the subject.

This is a meaningful difference.

48.       scalpel
1472 posts
 17 Jan 2012 Tue 12:00 am

 

Quoting Abla

And it works without adding the pronoun? I have learned if there is no personal pronoun the thoughts will go to the subject.

This is a meaningful difference.

 

It works :

Bazen, uzun zaman önce terketmeliydim diye düşünüyorum 

Bazen, uzun zaman önce terketmeliydin diye düşünüyorum 

Bazen, uzun zaman önce terketmeliydi diye düşünüyorum 

Bazen, uzun zaman önce terketmeliydik diye düşünüyorum 

Bazen, uzun zaman önce terketmeliydiniz diye düşünüyorum 

Bazen, uzun zaman önce terketmeliydiler diye düşünüyorum

49.       Abla
3647 posts
 17 Jan 2012 Tue 08:24 am

Fine, scalpel. But the most interesting combination is the one with sg 3rd and sg 3rd because there are two possible ways to see it. What you say means that this diye part is an independent wholeness  -  it doesn´t take orders from outside.

50.       scalpel
1472 posts
 17 Jan 2012 Tue 11:34 am

 

Quoting Abla

Fine, scalpel. But the most interesting combination is the one with sg 3rd and sg 3rd because there are two possible ways to see it. What you say means that this diye part is an independent wholeness  -  it doesn´t take orders from outside.

 

Actually, not only sg 3rd+sg 3rd... 

A- speaker, B- 3rd person, C- listener D - 4th person

----------------------------------- ( kim terketmeliydi? )

...terketmeliydim diye düşünüyor ( A or B? ) 

...terketmeliydin diye düşünüyor ( C )

...terketmeliydi diye düşünüyor ( B or D? )

...terketmeliydik diye düşünüyor ( pl A or pl B? )

...terketmeliydiniz diye düşünüyor ( pl C )

...terketmeliydiler diye düşünüyor ( pl B or pl D ? )

As you see only the listener´s position is clear...

Using a name gets rid of the ambiguity:

bazen, Ahmet için uzun zaman önce terketmeliydi diye düşünüyor. (Ahmet =>4th person)

With "benim / bizim için" 1st person may be treated as 3rd person:

bazen, benim için uzun zaman önce terketmeliydi diye düşünüyor

But we don´t have to use diye...

Quote:

I am afraid it has to do with gerekmek again.

gokuyum tried to save you from gerekmek.. but.. yes, it may have to do with gerekmek again

Welcome back to your nightmare!

Bazen, uzun zaman önce terketmem gerektiğini düşünüyor ( benim)

...terketmen gerektiğini düşünüyor ( senin)

...terketmesi gerektiğini düşünüyor ( kendisinin )

if it is 4th person, pronoun o used to make it clear:

Bazen, onun uzun zaman önce terketmesi gerektiğini düşünüyor

A name makes it even clearer:

Bazen, Ahmet´in uzun zaman önce terketmesi gerektiğini düşünüyor

...

 

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