Can any politician, especially if a large number of citizens do not believe him to be a republican, tell Turks how and where the public can celebrate the 89th anniversary of REBUBLIC DAY?   The answer is NO !

Official government warnings of a possible riot turned out to be totally untrue ! Celebrators and demonstrators were absolutely dignified; Papers hardly rated the State Police as "dignified".

http://rt.com/news/turkey-police-teargas-protest-506/

I am not a fan of conspiracy theories but here is my understanding of what lies in the background of the incidents in Ankara:

The powers-that-be consider Turkey as a considerable military power in the region. Despite all its pro-West attitude, Turkey is considered a bit volatile and unpredictable. The country supports a large population having extremely diversified ethnic backgrounds. Turkey is a unitarian country and has a militarist outlook. No matter what political flavour its young generation choose, a large percentage of them are still very patriotic people.

Turks have certain icons and they defend them ardently. These icons can be considered as a bond that holds the masses together and they are the ones found in established countries like France, Italy, Spain etc. While it is OK for the aforementioned countries have these bonds (since they are Christian and Western) it is not OK to have such a strong unitarian regime in a region where powers-that-be would like to hold the reins by stirring trouble as they did in Iraq, Syria and Libya.

If a political group can be installed in the community using an element (religion) that is not alien to the natural texture of the community, and if they are given enough power they can serve the common targets and do their best to undermine the established obstacles to terminate the unwanted regime and to replace it with a softer, calmer and less resistant one.

Once this step is achieved, more daring plans can eventually be tried.

I share vineyard´s views to a wide extent.

I hope most of you will be alive to see what the year 2023 has in store for you. Certain politicians seem to place great significance on that date. We might all be in for a surprise party ("fez" obligatory).

Merhaba! I do not mean to enter a discussion where I do not belong, but please help me understand.

In some ways, Erdoğan has been an improvement over the old military rulers, yes? There is more freedom of religion, for instance. If a woman wants to wear a head scarf, she can. There is more freedom in the discussion of the culture, yes? The Ottoman Empire is no longer an off-limits subject.

On the other hand, Erdoğan shows signs of being as interested in power and control as his predecessors. 

In America, the secular and the religious are often at odds. Our country is founded on the idea that religion has no place in the running of the state. But we also believe in freedom of religion -- everyone practices as he or she sees fit. Can Turkey find a good balance in this regard? Has Turkey already found this balance?

I am very interested in your answers.

Think of the football clubs and their fancy signings, large budgets and coaches with their magical plans for reaching the next league title: what looks good on paper is rarely good enough to actually get success in real life. We can project this onto how society is ruled by parties and how systems or regimes rarely live up to the expectations of the masses.

Leonard Cohen, a singer-philosopher puts it this way:

quote

Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It´s coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.

unquote

Perhaps there is a seed of truth in this. Unless, democracy comes to a mighty countrly like the US first, there is little chance for the others to move a finger to change their regimes. One way to achieve this is to question our understanding of democracy and this has to be done on a very large scale and meticulously.

The moment when we realize there is no secularism nor democracy in the true sense of the word, we will have a chance to aspire a better regime that at least makes more justice to the word: democracy.

One of the problems of the "civilized" part of the world today is the wide-spreaded procrastination stemming from their incorrectly considering themselves as the "norm" and the unnecessary satisfaction with a so-called efficient society that relies on the inefficiencies of others. This is about to change.

In a world climate where people talk about a clash of civilizations, we can´t talk about the existence of religious peace in any country in the world. That also means not much has changed over the decades and that things are even getting worse compared to the past.

We are so advanced now we even don´t need democracy anymore

Hmm. Yes, democracy is always a developing project. America went from having slavery, to having an effective apartheid, to slowly bringing black Americans into society, to having black political and business leaders, to having a black president. Similar progressions have happened, or are happening, with others -- immigrants of all stripes, women, gays. It is always a developing project. There is always more to be done. There is always another battle to be fought. That is the beauty of democracy. And that´s what Leonard Cohen was trying to say: 

It´s coming to America first / the cradle of the best and of the worst. / It´s here they got the range / and the machinery for change / and it´s here they got the spiritual thirst.

Hopefully, more of the world will join the grand experiment.

Turkey is on this sort of journey, too, yes?

From the political point of view, Turkey is not a stable country. No matter who wins the elections and regardless of the percentage, a sizeable portion of the population detest the resulting government and do their best to undermine it and it is often vice versa.

Being inflicted with such problems, it can´t be said Turkey pleases majority of its citizens let alone provide democracy for them. As you say, there is always room for further development and that is very much the case for Turkey too.

Furthermore, Turkey is at the cross-roads of civilizations. It is neither completely East nor is it West. That means Turks have a slightly different concept of democracy while being quite familiar with the notions of their Eastern and Western neighbors. What is democratic for a Turk may not be that way for a foreigner. Just like a nun may think she is liberated by devoting herself to God. Democracy is a belief. It may come in different shapes. You may like the system in America but we all know that there are countless people all around the world who consider it an evil empire.

You make a good argument, Vineyards, but here are two thoughts:

First, perhaps Turkey just hasn´t arrived yet at the place where one party can win power and the opposition can be satisfied with knowing there will be another chance in four or five years. There is no love lost between many Democrats and Republicans in the United States, but there is still a loyal opposition because we all know there is always another election coming, that the tables can easily turn -- and often do. Maybe that is hard to see when your country spent so many years dealing with coups and military rule. But maybe Turkey will eventually come to that place. We can hope.

Second, yes, democracy comes in many shades. That is all to the good. People make democracy, and people in one culture are not going to necessarily approach things like those in another culture. I agree with you. And it is fair for some people around the world to see America as an evil empire -- our track record is not all good. Sometimes the people we put in office make bad decisions -- George W. Bush springs to mind. But Americans have good hearts, and we have done good things: helped to rebuild Europe and Japan after WWII, brought lifesaving medical programs to Africa, supported dissidents in Russia and other countries where political freedom is all but nonexistent. America deserves a fair look, not a foregone conclusion. If people around the world could see each other for who they are, and not what they think they are, we would all be better off.

In case our starting point is the age of a country, we must remember Turkey is a much older country compared to the US. However, we must also note that the US shares the sociocultural wealth of the European continent. That also means the US and Europe have been in the same bandwagon since the beginning. Therefore, to understand the evolution of the regime in the US, we must study the near history of Europe.

Over the decades, many regimes were tested in Europe. From the Holy State Model of the medieval times to the fascist regime of Franco in Spain or the National Socialism of the Hitler era along with communism and social democracy they flourished and failed on the European soil. Its this diversity and openness for a change that made the creation of the US possible. The US was a new ideal invested in a land with vast opportunities that could support a new system.

How did Europe get to that point? All this relentless change and striving for a better and more efficient formation was not without a reason. Europe was threatened by Turkey. Turkey had better armies and a stronger economy then. The entire Sea of Mediterranean was controlled by the Ottoman fleet. Traditional trade routes were also controlled by the Turks. Europe had to do something to get rid of the Turks and they discovered America while trying to find a new way to reach India. Colonism, slavery, exploitation of the resources of the new-found-land gave Europe and edge over their archrivals. They had more money, larger armies (reinforced by their colonies). The efforts they made to reach, control and govern these new lands caused them to excel in creating new technologies. (larger distances created a need for steam vehicles, better built vessels etc.).

To put it in a nutshell, whoever has the power has the last word about what democracy is and the West is doing exactly that. If Turkey emerged victorious from this long battle we would be talking about a different kind of social structure hence democracy.

As for Americans having golden hearts. I have no objections since I have nothing against the man in the street. Nevertheless, if we should more correctly judge nations by their political decisions we must say, a country that resorted to mass-destruction weapons twice in its near history indiscriminately murdering tens of thousands of innocent civilians including babies, mothers and children can hardly be called a good one. Whoever did and whoever endorsed that were war criminals, and they certainly deserve to go to hell.

Oh, we tread dangerous ground now.

I wonder if you have read Niall Ferguson´s "Civilization: The West and the Rest." In it, he talks about this rise of the West and how the Ottomans fell behind because they held to their traditional ways and beliefs, rather than taking up the printing press, science, etc., at the same time the West did. He also talks about how Turkey then began to catch up through the efforts of Ataturk. And how today Turkey is a rising power again.

These theories about East and West are very interesting to me. But that doesn´t mean I think the West is necessarily better. Obviously, I have great respect for Turkish culture or I wouldn´t be here. I love Turkish music and literature and food and architecture. Science and progress are important, but they are only enhanced by a rich history, by beauty, by soul. Turkey has all of these things.

As for the evil empire of America, I can´t argue with you about weapons of mass destruction. But it was another generation that made those decisions. There is a new generation in America, as there is in Turkey. We must remember the bad things, and talk about them freely, so they don´t happen again. But it is only destructive to blame a current generation for choices made by its predecessors. This is something that I would think Turks could understand, yes? Bits of history that can´t be shaken? Sometimes we have to let go of the hatreds and animosities in order to move forward with each other.

Let´s end our discussion in peace, Vineyards. I mean no harm.

Trip 

P.S. -- And as a rising power, perhaps Turkey will shape the world´s view of democracy someday. It is already setting an example of prosperity and progress for many in the Middle East.

Have you read "The Clash of Civili<ations and the Remarking of World Order"

by Samuel P.Huntington ?

This political book is searching a new world order.

But there is only one wrong in this book.CIVILIZATION.

ıt is : Civilization is the world global civilization and the civilization is unique.But the cultures are different.

Western civilization considers western civilization was the only civilization in this planet.But there were so many civilizations in the past. We must respect old civilizations:

The history of lost or old civilizations comprises Atlantis, Inca, Maya, Aztek, Turkish Aegean District, Helenic Period, Mesopotamia/Sumer, Ancient Egypt, Ancient China and so many others from unknown.

I think the civilization of the world is the sum of them.

And democracy and human rights require high level community and intellectual culture and background for the whole world countries.

A new world order is forming now.A good progress.

And I can tell you "The Constitution of the United States is the best constitution as the highest level legal document in the world for the name of democracy and human right.

.

Both Huntington and his theory of CLASH BETWEEN CIVILIZATIONS are "out" now.

The new "in" theory and practice now is CLASH WITHIN THE CIVILIZATIONS. a far less dangerous practice for our Western friends.

Look whats happening between different sects of Islam nowadays; Sunni Islam against the Shia Islam.

Divide and rob, is the Western principle.

The world media says the USA had designed its politıcal sciences according to this book.
But this books image was wrong about the civilizations.
This book says "he Clash of Civilizations.."
It was wrong.Because there is only one civilization in this planet.
And it is sum of the world civilizations.So it is inique.
It should have told "The Clash of cultures..."
And  as AlphaF said "The Huntington´s  is "out" now.
According to the World Media, as a dangerous practice, some western friends are using
"democracy" and "human rights" as a tool to devide some
countries.
As AlphaF said it is a "divide and rob" policy.He is right.
In fact, as the historians knows very well,
the "Divide, destroy, manage and rob policy" was discovered by ASSYRIA (ASSUR, ASHUR, ASUR) EMPIRE ( BC 2000-609).
It is an ancient policy according to the political science.

I am afraid you all give the West too much credit. We are not that organized. Divide and conquer? Until Iraq, we didn´t even understand the difference between Sunni and Shia. And you think that the West can manage the East? Think again! Do you think Mr. Erdoğan is a fool? Do you think Hu Jintao and Xi Jinping are fools? Do you think Vladimir Putin is a fool? Believe me, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have their work cut out for them with these leaders. They have met their match in many ways. (And if America elects Mitt Romney on Tuesday, he will more than meet his match!) And then there are the countries where disorder is the ruler at the moment: Egypt, Libya, Syria. It´s hard to divide and conquer when you can´t even tell who you´re dividing.

Give your own leaders more credit. They are smart. They are not going to let the West dictate to them -- unless they see some reason in it for their own nation. The chip must come off your shoulders, dostlar!

West can dictate anything if you come under it economically. Look at the situation of Greece. By the way let me tell you something. You mentioned coups made in Turkey before. And you implied now Turkey is getting more democratic because army can´t make a coup anymore. Nobody can make a coup in Turkey against a government which USA supports. This includes old coups too. USA has a bigger influence on Turkish politics than you think. The role of USA in the Turkish millitary coups must be searched throughly. But it doesn´t seem possible now.

Of course, any discussion involving opposing sides must be based on impartiality rather than fanatism. I could sing praises of the West for hours. We all owe a great deal for the eminent scientists, philosophers and men of letters the West contributed to humanity. I have learned a lot from them and many of them are my personal heroes.

Let us remember Yin and Yang the famous Chinese symbol that represents the unity of opposing poles and the constant transformation between them. The situation between the West and the East is very much like that. The East and the West are actually the same thing, they are one. They mutually influence each other.

I love the West. I can´t imagine a world without them. If it weren´t for the perpetual competition between these two, we could never get to the point where we are now. We must both be against hatred. What I am trying to do is to criticize the obvious misdeeds of both parties.

I´m sorry, Gokuyum, I shouldn´t speak of things I don´t completely understand. As an American I have no idea what it is like to go through a coup or to live under the restrictions that come with one. I only meant that the natural swings of democracy may be harder to accept at first if a country has been through such harsh times.

And I agree with you that the West´s economic clout is its real power. But that may change someday, too. America is deeply in debt to China. Europe is struggling to keep its finances from tearing it apart. The world keeps changing, albeit slowly.

Teşekkürler, Vineyards, for your words of reason. East and West are one. We are one big world more than ever before. 

Here is an article I hope everyone here will find interesting. It goes along with our discussion and appeared in Sunday´s Washington Post. On Page 1 of the paper edition -- which should show you how central Turkey is today to the outlook in our capital.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-turkey-syria-poses-a-new-test-for-erdogans-authority/2012/11/03/12c5cfce-2445-11e2-92f8-7f9c4daf276a_story.html

You are either too naive, or too smart for us Turks....cant tell which.

THERE HAS NOT BEEN ONE SUCCESSFUL MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY THAT WAS NOT ORGANIZED AND SUPPORTED BY USA.....Does that tell you anything?

Okay, no more arguments. America is an evil empire. It is the root of all of Turkey´s problems. Even if the Cold War and, hopefully, the era of Turkish coups are past. And even if the men who made the policies of those years are long gone. ... If blaming America makes you feel better, AlphaF, that is your choice. I myself prefer optimism and self-determination.

AlphaF is not the only person who blames America nowadays. Americans as individuals are generally nice, but unaware. US Governments - evil indeed !

Try blowing a friendly kiss to Al Kaida today.....if you are a sound optimist !

America is not different than other empires. Having so much power corrupt them. Isn´t America "New Rome" now?

Oh, I swore I would not enter this discussion again, but you are so provoking, dostlar!

One, al-Qaeda is not what it once was. So, perhaps there is room for optimism when it comes to defeating violent extremism.

Two, yes, great empires wane and fall. America is already waning in some respects -- China and others are rising. But as you point out, this is nothing new, as the Ottomans themselves would tell us, yes? (Perhaps being an empire is not the best thing, anyway! The British and the Italians have adjusted nicely.)

Enough arguing! Let´s all just be happy that Mr. Obama will lead the U.S. for another four years. At least there will be room for some understanding between peoples! 

Enough arguing! Let´s all just be happy that Mr. Obama will lead the U.S. for another four years. At least there will be room for some understanding between peoples!

Mr.Obama won, supported by a coalition of minority groups - much to the disappointment of WASP upper class.

Obama supporting minority groups are,

- Black Americans (12%)

- Mexicans and other Latinos (10%)

- Homesexuals (5%)

- Radical Socialists (10%)

- People in need of social support (20%)

- Women and/or young people supporting one or more of above groups, for one reason or another (20%)

The above distribution, after duplications are eliminated. guarantees more than 50% of the votes.

Looks like a socialist wind is in the air now and the wind is here to stay. Anglo-Saxon supremacy in US will be "out" for a long time to come. America will definitely change.

I feel Americans made the right choice !

AlphaF, do we agree on something?! Maybe, almost!

As a WASP (although I cannot claim to be in the upper classes), I am very happy that Mr. Obama won. And there are very many other white Americans who would agree.

America is changing, always changing. That is our genius (if I may be so bold)!

As for socialism, it has a long history here, although many Americans do not recognize it. What was Franklin Roosevelt but a socialist? He gave us a social safety net that helped pull us out of the Depression. Lyndon Johnson took us farther down that path. Now, we just have to make the far right understand that "socialism" is not a dirty word!

"AlphaF, do we agree on something?! Maybe, almost!

As a WASP (although I cannot claim to be in the upper classes), I am very happy that Mr. Obama won. And there are very many other white Americans who would agree.

America is changing, always changing. That is our genius (if I may be so bold)!

As for socialism, it has a long history here, although many Americans do not recognize it. What was Franklin Roosevelt but a socialist? He gave us a social safety net that helped pull us out of the Depression. Lyndon Johnson took us farther down that path. Now, we just have to make the far right understand that "socialism" is not a dirty word!"

TRİP

Well done, trip.good opinion and good approach. 

US ELECTIONS

Below are (some of the) views of a Moslem, American, economist (name witheld) regarding Mr. Obama and late elections.....for anyone who may be interested.

Fortunately, he is not bold enough to believe US is a nattion of genui (geniuses ?) too.

e, that was a big win. After the debacle of the first debate, I
started thinking that the US electorate is uninformed enough to elect
the flip flopper Romney. He reminded me of Keynes classical portrayal
of Loyd George in the Versaiile conference "a man of large head of
dubious content, with sqinty eyes and readiness to change his opinions
depending on who faces him"
The Republican party got its vote from white men above forty five and
religious fundamentalists who are fit to join the Salafis of  Islam.
It is a party that does not believe in science (no global warming,
deficits are contractionary and austerity is expansionary) and
churlish Maggoism: the economy will grow and be fine if Government cut
its spending  and decrease its taxes on the rich and raise defense
expenditure.
Thank heavens, the Supreme court will not get another Thomas or
Eilotto. We will not also have to deal with young Paul Ryan returning
to the scene Von Mises economics with fervor and straight face born by
supreme ignorance.
Obama might now continue the great things he did not mention in the
campaign; clean and green energy, rehabilitation of our
infrastructure, changing our grid and broad band networks,
reestablishing manufactures, reestablishing US leadership in science
and technology and educating our children in this vast nation where an
intellectual is called an egghead.,
Well, It is good news America. Will the confirmed President do
anything about the Palestinians and save the world and the Jews from
the crepto fascist duo Netanyahu- lieberman? And will he do something
about this crazy Bashar Assad who is destroying his country and
killing his people so that he stays in power?

AlphaF, I think your economist is a very insightful man. I agree with his take on the election.

But I did not say that America is a nation of geniuses! Far from it! We are like any nation, full of all kinds of people. The genius of America is that all these people, from all walks of life, have a chance to express their opinions, no matter where they fall on the political spectrum. And more than express their opinions, they can cast a vote.

The America of today is very different from the America of even 1980. Women, African Americans, Hispanics and Asians are much more prominent today. They are uniting to have a bigger say at the polls. That is what is changing America. America may change slowly, but it is not static. That is where the genius lies.

Democracy is always a developing project.

IS IT TRUE?  

Edited (4/11/2013) by og2009

Whatever happened to J.F.K ?

I agree with you Mr. A...although I´d like to point out the fact there is a huge immigrant natualized citizens who are changing the complexion and culture in the USA.

It probably is that where I live has more immigrants than the "heartland" (which is pretty pale), that is in the SF Bay Area. For example, just in the last 20 years we have had a large Afghan immigration, not to mention the already very large Philipean community, the Indians, the various South Asian communities, the various Horn of Africa group.  It´s easy to find bread from Ethiopia and Eritria, and exotic vegetables from South Asia. I´ve discovered different types of Korean Kimchee. The girls who prepars my moring expresso are from Bulgaria or Eritria, my bank has people from Latin America, Afghanistan, Russia and more. 

As an example, fifty years ago it was hard to find sushi, now it´s over the place. You can find it in almost any Super Market. 

By the third generation people usually are mixed with other races and ethnicities. God bless the immigrants. They bring  energy and fresh vision. 

I hope Obama does a good job, but he is just one tiny cog in the wheel, and as you see, there are way too many who do not wish him well. I can´t imagine how anyone could have actually voted for the "other" guy. Were they that ignorant as to their own well being?

Sadly, I agree with you. I think Ibn Khaldun noted this in his works. Empires get lazy and corrupt, they feel they are in a dominant position because they are who they are and others are lesser human beings. They become lazy and debauched, then the new desparate, hungry group comes in and starts over and the process continues.

We have seen it over and over, but we don´t learn. I thnk the only thing that has saved the US so far, and let´s face it, the US is not even 300 years old, is the immigrants. 

I too try to keep optomistic, however there are certain facts to deal with. One is that
America gets way too much credit for the world situation.

Corporations appear to rule a great deal, and the big ones are multinational.....and for some insane reason they have aquired "personhood" in the USA, giving them tremendous powers that they are not shy about wielding.