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Neden/Niye
(23 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
1 2 3
1.       am_1010
246 posts
 11 Apr 2014 Fri 05:04 pm

When you want to ask "Why?" in Turkish, is there a difference between saying "Neden?" or "Niye?"?

2.       KediNero
418 posts
 11 Apr 2014 Fri 05:09 pm

 

Quoting am_1010

When you want to ask "Why?" in Turkish, is there a difference between saying "Neden?" or "Niye?"?

There is no difference between them. 

Neden, niçin, niye...they are all of same meaning

 

 

 

3.       olphon
106 posts
 12 Apr 2014 Sat 03:44 pm

ANTS here, the altruistic native Turkish speaker,

With unnecessary explanations...

 

Neden = Ne + den = From what  (From what is this EFFECT taking its roots, reasons, CAUSES?)

Niçin = Ne + için = For what (used in english as well)

Niye = Ne + diye ~ So what (You did this, and this, so what? Why did you do that?)

 

You can see the connection between all three of them, right? They all kind of mean "why".

In English they all sound like they´d mean slightly different things but in Turkish, I can´t think of an example in which you cannot substitute one for another.

By the way, I haven´t read this in a book so it is not solid information but to a Turkish ear it is obvious.

raydin, kosara, Henry, am_1010 and Abla liked this message
4.       si++
3785 posts
 12 Apr 2014 Sat 06:31 pm

 

Quoting olphon

ANTS here, the altruistic native Turkish speaker,

With unnecessary explanations...

 

Neden = Ne + den = From what  (From what is this EFFECT taking its roots, reasons, CAUSES?)

Niçin = Ne + için = For what (used in english as well)

Niye = Ne + diye ~ So what (You did this, and this, so what? Why did you do that?)

 

...

 

Well, it´s obviously

niye (neye) = to what (goal/purpose) = why

Henry liked this message
5.       olphon
106 posts
 12 Apr 2014 Sat 07:28 pm

 





Well, it´s obviously


niye (neye) = to what (goal/purpose) = why





 


And all my life, I´ve believed "niye" was "ne diye".


Things make much more sense now!


si++ is right, people.

6.       si++
3785 posts
 12 Apr 2014 Sat 07:56 pm

 

Quoting olphon

 

 

And all my life, I´ve believed "niye" was "ne diye".
Things make much more sense now!
si++ is right, people.

 

I have a feeling that this sense of humour sounds familiar to me. Are you an old member with a new nickname?

7.       Abla
3648 posts
 12 Apr 2014 Sat 08:01 pm

Quote: si++

I have a feeling that this sense of humour sounds familiar to me. Are you an old member with a new nickname?

I think so too but let´s see.

8.       olphon
106 posts
 12 Apr 2014 Sat 08:13 pm

Are you an old member with a new nickname?

No I´m not.

You really must have missed that guy. Reminds me of Yılmaz Erdoğan´s "o da ekmek yerdi."

 



Edited (4/12/2014) by olphon
Edited (4/12/2014) by olphon
Edited (4/12/2014) by olphon

9.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 13 Apr 2014 Sun 08:40 am

 

Quoting si++

 

 

I have a feeling that this sense of humour sounds familiar to me. Are you an old member with a new nickname?

I thought he was "handsome". But I guess he is not He impressed me with his explanations about Turkish grammar and he hasnt written anything yet about Armenian genocide

 

elenagabriela liked this message
10.       olphon
106 posts
 13 Apr 2014 Sun 09:31 am

The only reason I am not handsome is because I am very handsome. Very much above average. And speaking of Armenians, there´s this great etymological dictionary by an Armenian guy, which did not give any explanation for "niye". So I had to improvise.

http://nisanyansozluk.com/?k=niye&x=0&y=0

11.       elenagabriela
2040 posts
 13 Apr 2014 Sun 04:49 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

I thought he was "handsome". But I guess he is not He impressed me with his explanations about Turkish grammar and he hasnt written anything yet about Armenian genocide

 

 

maybe vona/ scalpel   {#emotions_dlg.holy}

12.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 14 Apr 2014 Mon 10:33 pm

 

Quoting olphon

 

No I´m not.

You really must have missed that guy. Reminds me of Yılmaz Erdoğan´s "o da ekmek yerdi."

 

 

They really miss me 

(this is just to save you from wrath of si++) Cool

13.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 12:36 am

i heard villagers say: "ne diye geldin?" why did you come?

"ne diye" and "niçin" are same in meaning but niçin is common in cities while ne diye common in rural areas.

i dont know the origin of "niye"
"ne-ye": to what, seems logical when i look at the structure. at the same time "ne diye" is logical when i look at usage and meaning. i vote for ne diye.



Edited (4/15/2014) by ikicihan

olphon and am_1010 liked this message
14.       si++
3785 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 08:49 am

 

Quoting ikicihan

i heard villagers say: "ne diye geldin?" why did you come?

"ne diye" and "niçin" are same in meaning but niçin is common in cities while ne diye common in rural areas.

i dont know the origin of "niye"
"ne-ye": to what, seems logical when i look at the structure. at the same time "ne diye" is logical when i look at usage and meaning. i vote for ne diye.

 

Well, Before subscribing to semething blindly, just look at it again once more, it´s right there begging for you to see it!

 

That kind of phonetic change would leave traces in the past, can you provide any evidence to support that change you vote for?

 

Umut_Umut liked this message
15.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 05:08 pm

At the first sight "niye" looks like it is formed from the question word "ne" with the suffix "-e/a" (ne+e = neye = niye) but "neye" still is there and in use. "neye" means "at/to what" whereas "niye" means "why". For example, "neye baktın?" means what did you look at?" and "niye baktın?" means "why did you look?" This is not to say TC´s official Turkish grammar expert dear si++ is wrong but just flame the discussion Wink 



Edited (4/15/2014) by scalpel - -

16.       Abla
3648 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 05:27 pm

Quote: scalpel--

"neye" means "at/to what" whereas "niye" means "why". For example, "neye baktın?" means what did you look at?" and "niye baktın?" means "why did you look?"

 

I don´t think ABL and DAT are so distant. What about

 

                    Neden korkuyorsun? Sevmekten.

                    Niye korkuyorsun? Sevmeye.

 

Both could be translated with ´why´.

 

I don´t believe in ne diye. It is a later abstraction. No phonetic erosion at all.

 

The grammaticalization path would be something like:

 

1. Neye bakıyorsun? (AT WHAT) > 2. *Neye korkuyorsun? > 3. Niye korkuyorsun? > 4. Niye bakıyorsun? (WHY)

 

1. Initial state, meaning 1.

2. Widened use with a limited set of verbs, meaning 1. and 2. side by side.

3. Phonetic change supports the semantic change, meaning 2.

4. Generalization of meaning 2.

 

(I am not sure if korkmak is the best possible example here but there must be a context where these two meanings lap together.)



Edited (4/15/2014) by Abla [Actually it is the replies that count.]
Edited (4/15/2014) by Abla

17.       si++
3785 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 05:35 pm

 

Quoting scalpel - -

At the first sight "niye" looks like it is formed from the question word "ne" with the suffix "-e/a" (ne+e = neye = niye) but "neye" still is there and in use. "neye" means "at/to what" whereas "niye" means "why". For example, "neye baktın?" means what did you look at?" and "niye baktın?" means "why did you look?" This is not to say TC´s official Turkish grammar expert dear si++ is wrong but just flame the discussion Wink 

 

I may be wrong. If I am wrong somebody should prove me wrong.

 

I don´t/can´t see any phonetic development like niye < ne diye. If there is any, let me know any related pointers/references.

18.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 09:04 pm

alıntı:

according to someone

"Niye: Corruption of "neye", which is the dative of "ne". To what end?"
source: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2653974&langid=20

according to someone else
"excatly niye is the short version of ´ ne diye ´ and they all exchangeable. niye,neden,niçin"
source: http://www.memrise.com/course/79355/hacking-turkish-1/thread/1305918/

 

19.       livingalive
22 posts
 15 Apr 2014 Tue 11:09 pm

"Niye" has an empty etymology space in Nişanyan Sözlük.

https://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=niye&lnk=1

It remains a mystery. I thought it was from neye, but I´ve been studying Turkish for just over a year so I am not very qualified to answer this.

20.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 16 Apr 2014 Wed 11:04 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

I don´t think ABL and DAT are so distant. What about

 

                    Neden korkuyorsun? Sevmekten.

                    Niye korkuyorsun? Sevmeye.

 

Both could be translated with ´why´.

 

I don´t believe in ne diye. It is a later abstraction. No phonetic erosion at all.

 

The grammaticalization path would be something like:

 

1. Neye bakıyorsun? (AT WHAT) > 2. *Neye korkuyorsun? > 3. Niye korkuyorsun? > 4. Niye bakıyorsun? (WHY)

 

1. Initial state, meaning 1.

2. Widened use with a limited set of verbs, meaning 1. and 2. side by side.

3. Phonetic change supports the semantic change, meaning 2.

4. Generalization of meaning 2.

 

(I am not sure if korkmak is the best possible example here but there must be a context where these two meanings lap together.)

 

DAt also used for indicating purpose or intented goal. From this point of view,in meaning, -a/-e is very close to "için": sevmeye = sevmek için (as in the example: sevmeye yürek gerek - sevmek için yürek gerek) So back to your example, "neye korkuyorsun - sevmeye" could also be "ne için korkuyorsun - sevmek için." 

I think it is:

-a/-e => için

neye => ne için

niye = niçin

p.s. you don´t have to thank me for my contribution here Cool 

21.       Umut_Umut
485 posts
 16 Apr 2014 Wed 11:29 am

Nişanyan´s dictionary is not the only source actually. It is popular because it is online. I think TDK should work on this online dictionary issue.  If i will have chance to  check my etymology books i will let you now.  

 

But  now lets check from another point. 

In Turkey Turkish we are in doubt if  it is coming from ne-y-e or ne diye so let´s check some examples from other Turkic dialects, 

In Turkey Turkish        it is  niye    ne+e (dative)  / or /  ne + diye?

In Uzbek Turkish         it is  nega    ne+ga (dative)

In Kazakh Turkish        it is  неге (nege)   ne+ge (dative)

 

So above we can see one example from  each dialect group ( Oghuz, Qarluq, Kipchaq ). And according to the other dialect examples,  i think it is clear that niye is coming from ne+e. 

 

 

 

 

 



Abla and si++ liked this message
22.       Abla
3648 posts
 16 Apr 2014 Wed 11:16 pm

Quote: scalpel--

p.s. you don´t have to thank me for my contribution here Cool

 

We are glad you are back at this god-forsaken website.



Edited (4/16/2014) by Abla

23.       Umut_Umut
485 posts
 17 Apr 2014 Thu 11:37 am

 

Quoting Umut_Umut

 If i will have chance to  check my etymology books i will let you now.  

 

Hey,

I checked the dictionary (Türkiye Türkçesindeki Türkçe Sözcüklerin Köken Bilgisi Sözlüğü, Tuncer Gülensoy) and it is written like this;

neye ~ niye ´Bir olayın sebebini ve amacını sormak için kullanılır´

< ne [> i]+y+e

 

 

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