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Neden/Niye
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20.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 16 Apr 2014 Wed 11:04 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

 

I don´t think ABL and DAT are so distant. What about

 

                    Neden korkuyorsun? Sevmekten.

                    Niye korkuyorsun? Sevmeye.

 

Both could be translated with ´why´.

 

I don´t believe in ne diye. It is a later abstraction. No phonetic erosion at all.

 

The grammaticalization path would be something like:

 

1. Neye bakıyorsun? (AT WHAT) > 2. *Neye korkuyorsun? > 3. Niye korkuyorsun? > 4. Niye bakıyorsun? (WHY)

 

1. Initial state, meaning 1.

2. Widened use with a limited set of verbs, meaning 1. and 2. side by side.

3. Phonetic change supports the semantic change, meaning 2.

4. Generalization of meaning 2.

 

(I am not sure if korkmak is the best possible example here but there must be a context where these two meanings lap together.)

 

DAt also used for indicating purpose or intented goal. From this point of view,in meaning, -a/-e is very close to "için": sevmeye = sevmek için (as in the example: sevmeye yürek gerek - sevmek için yürek gerek) So back to your example, "neye korkuyorsun - sevmeye" could also be "ne için korkuyorsun - sevmek için." 

I think it is:

-a/-e => için

neye => ne için

niye = niçin

p.s. you don´t have to thank me for my contribution here Cool 

21.       Umut_Umut
485 posts
 16 Apr 2014 Wed 11:29 am

Nişanyan´s dictionary is not the only source actually. It is popular because it is online. I think TDK should work on this online dictionary issue.  If i will have chance to  check my etymology books i will let you now.  

 

But  now lets check from another point. 

In Turkey Turkish we are in doubt if  it is coming from ne-y-e or ne diye so let´s check some examples from other Turkic dialects, 

In Turkey Turkish        it is  niye    ne+e (dative)  / or /  ne + diye?

In Uzbek Turkish         it is  nega    ne+ga (dative)

In Kazakh Turkish        it is  неге (nege)   ne+ge (dative)

 

So above we can see one example from  each dialect group ( Oghuz, Qarluq, Kipchaq ). And according to the other dialect examples,  i think it is clear that niye is coming from ne+e. 

 

 

 

 

 



Abla and si++ liked this message
22.       Abla
3647 posts
 16 Apr 2014 Wed 11:16 pm

Quote: scalpel--

p.s. you don´t have to thank me for my contribution here Cool

 

We are glad you are back at this god-forsaken website.



Edited (4/16/2014) by Abla

23.       Umut_Umut
485 posts
 17 Apr 2014 Thu 11:37 am

 

Quoting Umut_Umut

 If i will have chance to  check my etymology books i will let you now.  

 

Hey,

I checked the dictionary (Türkiye Türkçesindeki Türkçe Sözcüklerin Köken Bilgisi Sözlüğü, Tuncer Gülensoy) and it is written like this;

neye ~ niye ´Bir olayın sebebini ve amacını sormak için kullanılır´

< ne [> i]+y+e

 

 

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