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Gereklilik Kullanımları ...necessity usage
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1.       CANLI
5084 posts
 15 Aug 2006 Tue 11:26 pm

What is the difference between each one of those?

Does it have a degree of necessity as in English ?
There is difference in degree between
Must ,have to, may, might,ought to

İf not,so what is the difference between those structures ?

eylem + mA + iyelik eki [gerek/lazım ][gerek- +zaman eki]


eylem + mAk [gerek/lazım ][gerek- +zaman eki]

[zorunda + (y) kişi eki]
[mecburiyetinde + (y) kişi eki ]


eylem + mAk [zorunda kal- +zaman eki +kişi eki]
eylem + mAyA [ mecbur + kişi eki ]


And zaman eki .... like what ? is it sort of zaman suffix,or what ?

Tşk ederim


2.       aslan2
507 posts
 16 Aug 2006 Wed 09:01 am

Have to = -mek zorunda olmak, -mek mecburiyetinde olmak, -meye mecbur olmak

Literally though
-mek zorunda olmak = to be forced to ...
-mek mecburiyetinde olmak = to be obliged to ...

You can use -meli/-malı for anything at the beginning.
I must go = Gitmeliyim
I have to go = Gitmeliyim
I should go = Gitmeliyim

Then when you feel comfortable
I have to go = Gitmek zorundayım

Other forms like
Gitmek mecburiyetindeyim or
Gitmeye mecburum
are not preferred though they are possible. Forget them at the beginning.

Moha-ios liked this message
3.       CANLI
5084 posts
 16 Aug 2006 Wed 09:25 pm

Ohh, Tşk ederim,

Ama, what is zaman eki ?

Can you give some examples ?

4.       leameus
62 posts
 16 Aug 2006 Wed 09:57 pm

gitmek zorunda kal-dı-m (verb+zaman eki+kişi eki) a past tense example
gitmek zorunda kal-dı-n
gitmek zorunda kal-ı-r-ım a present tense example

5.       CANLI
5084 posts
 16 Aug 2006 Wed 10:23 pm

Anladım, Çok TŞK leamues

6.       CANLI
5084 posts
 18 Aug 2006 Fri 01:27 am

ok,now i have to make some ödev about the above ,and i need to know where to use each form of those,and on what base ?

eylem + mA + iyelik eki [gerek/lazım ][gerek- +zaman eki]


eylem + mAk [gerek/lazım ][gerek- +zaman eki]

[zorunda + (y) kişi eki]
[mecburiyetinde + (y) kişi eki ]


eylem + mAk [zorunda kal- +zaman eki +kişi eki]
eylem + mAyA [ mecbur + kişi eki ]

Tşkler

7.       erdinc
2151 posts
 18 Aug 2006 Fri 01:41 am

These formuluzations need some examples:

1. eylem + mA + iyelik eki [gerek/lazım ][gerek- +zaman eki]
1. gitmem gerek / gitmem gerekiyor : I need to go
-m in gitmem is possessive suffix. In first case it is just gerek as it is and in second case there ,s a tense suffix -iyor in gerekiyor.
-------------
2. eylem + mAk [gerek/lazım ][gerek- +zaman eki]
2. gitmek gerek / gitmek gerekiyor : it is necessary to go
-------------
3. [zorunda + (y) kişi eki]
4. [mecburiyetinde + (y) kişi eki ]
These are the continuation of previous section. It should be like this:

3. eylem + mAk [zorunda + (y) kişi eki]
4. eylem + mAk [mecburiyetinde + (y) kişi eki ]

3. gitmek zorundayım : I must go

4. gitmek mecburiyetindeyim : I must go
--------------
5. eylem + mAk [zorunda kal- +zaman eki +kişi eki]
6. eylem + mAyA [ mecbur + kişi eki ]

5. gitmek zorunda kaldım : I had no other choice than going

6. gitmeye mecburum : I must go

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8.       CANLI
5084 posts
 18 Aug 2006 Fri 01:59 am

Çok Tşk Erdinç,

Anladım,appreciated

9.       CANLI
5084 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 03:10 am

Ok,and when i want to put it into nagative,

İ mean,to say,i shouldn't or Must not..ect

İt is eylem,so we should use the (me,ma) suffix as usual, right ?

But i found this örnek,

Misafirler akşam gelecek,evi sabahtan toplamak zorunda değilim

Why said 'değilim' here,and not toplaMAmak ?

And this goes for all the other cases too ?

10.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 12:43 pm

gitmek zorundayım: I have to go
The obligatory is the activity: "to go"

gitmemek zorundayım: I must not go
The obligatory is the activity: "not to go" (="to stay")

gitmek zorunda değilim: I don't have to go
There is no obligatory: "I may go or I may not go"

so:
toplamak zorunda değilim: no obligatory.
toplamamak zorundayım: obligatory is "not to do"

11.       CANLI
5084 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 03:31 pm

what is değilim then ?

Why did they use it here ?

Misafirler akşam gelecek,evi sabahtan toplamak zorunda değilim

12.       qdemir
802 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 03:51 pm

What's the difference between "gerek", "gerekir" and gerekiyor" as the one can be used instead of an other?

Bu konuyu Ahmet Bey'le konuşmanız gerek.
Bu konuyu Ahmet Bey'le konuşmanız gerekir.
Bu konuyu Ahmet Bey'le konuşmanız gerekiyor.

Any difference between three?

13.       aslan2
507 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 04:24 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Ok,and when i want to put it into nagative,

İ mean,to say,i shouldn't or Must not..ect

İt is eylem,so we should use the (me,ma) suffix as usual, right ?

But i found this örnek,

Misafirler akşam gelecek,evi sabahtan toplamak zorunda değilim

Why said 'değilim' here,and not toplaMAmak ?

And this goes for all the other cases too ?



You seem to be confused. Let's make it clear.
You know "to be" in Turkish is a bit different than other verbs. You need to get it right first.

This site has a lesson on it:
http://www.turkishclass.com/grammar_toBe.htm

I will add some more below. First you need to know how to express the person. And it is done by adding the following suffixes:
-(y)im -- I am
-sin -- you are
-. or -dir/-tir -- he/she/it is
-(y)iz -- we are
-siniz -- you are
-ler -- they are

Examples:
iyi-yim -- I am fine
iyi-sin -- You are fine
iyi-. or iyi-dir -- He/She/It is fine
iyi-yiz -- We are fine
iyi-siniz -- You are fine
iyi-ler -- They are fine

Negative is done using "değil" (not) and these suffixes are attached to "değil".

iyi değil-im -- I am not fine
iyi değil-sin -- You are not fine
iyi değil-. or iyi değil-dir -- He/She/It is not fine
iyi değil-iz -- We are not fine
iyi değil-siniz -- You are not fine
iyi değil-ler -- They are not fine

Then you need to know how it is used with idi, imiş and ise.

Let's try to see it this way. I will use (person) for personal endings to show it in a short notation.

iyi-(person) (affirmative)
iyi değil-(person) (negative)
iyi mi-(person) (affirmative question)
iyi değil mi-(person) (negative question)

where (person) = (-(y)im/-sin/-. or -dir/-(y)iz/-siniz/-ler)

OK. I have already shown above how this short notation works for affirmative and negative cases. You should figure it out for the rest.

idi:
iyi idi-(person) (affirmative)
iyi değil idi-(person) (negative)
iyi mi idi-(person) (affirmative question)
iyi değil mi idi-(person) (negative question)

where (person) = (-m/-n/-./-k/-niz/-ler)
Ex: negative question for 1st pl person. The suffix is -k, right? So if we put it instead of (person)
iyi değil mi idi-k? -- Weren't we fine?

ise:
iyi ise-(person) -- If (person) fine (affirmative)
iyi değil ise-(person) If (person) not fine (negative)

where (person) = (-m/-n/-./-k/-niz/-ler) for Turkish or
(I am/you are/he is or she is or it is/ we are/you are/they are) for English

Ex: negative for 2nd pl. person. The suffix is -niz, right? So if we put it instead of (person)
iyi değil ise-niz? -- If you are not fine

imiş:
iyi imiş-(person) (affirmative)
iyi değil imiş-(person) (negative)
iyi mi imiş-(person) (affirmative question)
iyi değil mi imiş-(person) (negative question)

where (person) = (-im/-sin/-./-iz/-siniz/-ler)

idi + ise combo:
iyi idi-(person) ise or iyi idi ise-(person) (affirmative)
iyi değil idi-(person) ise or iyi değil idi ise-(person) (negative)

where (person) = (-m/-n/-./-k/-niz/-ler)
Ex: negative for 1st sing. person. The suffix is -m, right? So if we put it instead of (person)
iyi değil idi-m ise -- If I was not fine
or
iyi değil idi ise-m -- If I was not fine

As you can see personal endings may come after idi or ise with the same meaning.


imiş + ise combo:
iyi imiş-(person) ise or iyi imiş ise-(person) (affirmative)
iyi değil imiş-(person) ise or iyi değil imiş ise-(person) (negative)

where (person) = (-m/-n/-./-k/-niz/-ler) if after ise or
(person) = (-im/-sin/-./-iz/-siniz/-ler) if after imiş

Ex: negative for 2nd sing. person. The suffix is -sin if we put it after imiş, right? So if we put it instead of (person)
iyi değil imiş-sin ise -- If you are supposedly not fine
or
the suffix is -n after ise, so
iyi değil imiş ise-n -- If you are supposedly not fine

As you can see personal endings may come after imiş or ise with the same meaning.

OK. That was the special forms of "to be". For all other cases we use olmak similar to other verbs.

For example future tense of to be:
iyi ol-acağ-ım -- I will be fine
iyi ol-acak-sın -- You will be fine
iyi ol-acak -- He/She/It will be fine
iyi ol-acağ-ız -- We will be fine
iyi ol-acak-sınız -- You will be fine
iyi ol-acak-lar -- They will be fine

Infinitive:
iyi ol-mak istiyorum -- I want to be fine
iyi ol-mak istiyorsun -- You want to be fine
iyi ol-mak istiyor -- He/She/t wants to be fine
iyi ol-mak istiyoruz -- We want to be fine
iyi ol-mak istiyorsunuz -- You want to be fine
iyi ol-mak istiyorlar -- They want to be fine


And finally let me answer your question.

-mak zorunda olmak -- to have to ...

As you can see we have an "olmak" in this form. I have given the forms of it above. So let's work it out. I will do it for the first sing. person only. You should figure out the rest.

gitmek zorunda olmak -- to have to go

gitmek zorunda-yım -- I have to go
gitmek zorunda değil-im -- I don't have to go
gitmek zorunda mı-yım? -- Do I have to go?
gitmek zorunda değil mi-yim? Don't I have to go?

gitmek zorunda idi-m -- I had to go
gitmek zorunda değil idi-m -- I didn't have to go
gitmek zorunda mı idi-m? -- Did I have to go?
gitmek zorunda değil mi idi-m? -- Didn't I have to go?

gitmek zorunda ise-m -- If I have to go
gitmek zorunda değil ise-m -- If I don't have to go

gitmek zorunda imiş-im -- I supposedly have to go
gitmek zorunda değil imiş-im -- I supposedly don't have to go
gitmek zorunda mı imiş-im? -- Do I supposedly have to go?
gitmek zorunda değil mi imiş-im? -- Don't I supposedly have to go?

gitmek zorunda idi ise-m or
gitmek zorunda idi-m ise -- If I had to go
gitmek zorunda değil idi ise-m or
gitmek zorunda değil idi-m ise -- If I had not to go

gitmek zorunda imiş ise-m or
gitmek zorunda imiş-im ise -- If I supposedly have to go
gitmek zorunda değil imiş ise-m or
gitmek zorunda değil imiş-im ise -- If I supposedly don't have to go

gitmek zorunda ol-acağ-ım -- I will have to go
gitmek zorunda ol-ma-yacağ-ım -- I will not have to go

(Notice how it is done negative here?)

And what happens if you make gitmek negative above?
git-me-mek zorunda olmak -- to have to not go (What you have to do is not to go)

gitmemek zorundayım -- I have to not go (Is this correct in English? What's meant here is "What I have to do is not to go")
gitmemek zorunda değil-im -- I don't have to not go (What I don't have to is not to go)
etc.

I know, I know. It's been a long answer and maybe you are more confused now. (Are you?) Take your time, pay attention to the short notations I have provided above and memorize them (They are like math equations, you need to know the personal endings very well.)

Moha-ios liked this message
14.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 04:26 pm

Quoting CANLI:

what is değilim then ?

Why did they use it here ?

Misafirler akşam gelecek,evi sabahtan toplamak zorunda değilim



Is it hard to understand the difference between the obligatory "not to do" and no obligatory , or you ask just the meaning of "değil"?

Ben değilim: I am not
Sen değilsin: you are not
o değil: he is not

gitmek zorunda: he has to go
gitmek zorunda değil: he doesnt have to go << no obligatory
gitmemek zorunda: he musnt go (he must stay) << still there is an obligatory

öğretmenim: i am a teacher
öğretmen değilim: i am not a teacher

değil says us that there is no obligatory.
but if you use "-me" after verb, it says us that there is an obligatory "not to do that"

15.       Nisreen
1413 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 04:31 pm

Selam herkesecan someone help me T-E

canim bende seni olecek kadar seviyorum herinsan hayal kurar.


also i want to know what the meaning of çitirim ?
thank you

16.       mehmet_6
0 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 04:54 pm

gitmek zorundayım: I have to go
The obligatory is the activity: "to go"

gitmemek zorundayım: I must not go
The obligatory is the activity: "not to go" (="to stay")

gitmek zorunda değilim: I don't have to go
There is no obligatory: "I may go or I may not go"

so:
toplamak zorunda değilim: no obligatory.
toplamamak zorundayım: obligatory is "not to do"


gitmak zorundayım=I have to go
gitmek zorunda değil=I dont have to go
gitmeliyim=I must go
gitmemeliyim=I must not go


Note=must and have to dont have the same degree
must and have to dont have the same meaning

17.       CANLI
5084 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 04:57 pm

Quoting aslan2:



I know, I know. It's been a long answer and maybe you are more confused now. (Are you?) Take your time, pay attention to the short notations I have provided above and memorize them (They are like math equations, you need to know the personal endings very well.)



Thank You very much,

İ'm not really confused,i know olmak usage,but i didn't thought about it that way
And yes,so true you got a point,we cann't say 'i have NOT to go ' not a good sentence

But,what is having time from me that combo thing
imiş + ise combo:
idi + ise combo:

İ didn't know we can put olmak in that way too

Anyway, the combo matter is confusing me a little bit

btw, Nisreen hun,that is not the translation Forum !

18.       CANLI
5084 posts
 14 Sep 2006 Thu 05:12 pm

Yes,i know they are not same degree,but note here
There are more than one form with the same meaning,so what is the difference in usage between them ?

Quoting erdinc:

These formuluzations need some examples:


1. gitmem gerek / gitmem gerekiyor : I need to go

-------------

2. gitmek gerek / gitmek gerekiyor : it is necessary to go
-------------

3. gitmek zorundayım : I must go

4. gitmek mecburiyetindeyim : I must go
--------------

5. gitmek zorunda kaldım : I had no other choice than going

6. gitmeye mecburum : I must go



Mecbure used when i am forced by someone or something to do something ?
İ mean not with my own choice ?

19.       aslan2
507 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 09:31 am

Quoting CANLI:


But,what is having time from me that combo thing
imiş + ise combo:
idi + ise combo:

İ didn't know we can put olmak in that way too

Anyway, the combo matter is confusing me a little bit



ise = if

My point is that you can use personal endings after idi/imiş or ise without any change in the meaning.

The same can be said for the past tense of other verbs.

git-ti ise-n or
git-ti-n ise

but

git-miş ise-n (Mostly used)
git-miş-sin ise (Not preferred)

20.       aslan2
507 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 09:36 am

Quoting CANLI:


Mecbure used when i am forced by someone or something to do something ?
İ mean not with my own choice ?


mecbur or zorunda means "forced by something/someone". So they mean you are forced by someone/something to do something" not with your own choice.

21.       qdemir
802 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 12:07 pm

Instead of “zorunda” or "mecburiyetinde" + “to be” personal endings, “zorunda” or "mecburiyetinde"+ “kalmak” can be used. The difference between two is that both expresses obligation but the former expresses an obligation imposed by the speaker while the latter expresses an external obligation, i.e. one imposed by external authority or circumstances:

Odanı temizlemek zorundasın (mecburiyetindesin). (obligation imposed by the speaker)

9:00 trenini kaçrıdığım için 9:15 trenini beklemek zorunda (mecburiyetinde) kaldım. (the obligation imposed by the the circumstance)

Askerde saçlarını kısa kestirmek zorunda kalacaksın. (the army will oblige you to do that).

There is no difference between "zorunda" and "mecburiyetinde". The latter is Arabic origin.


22.       aslan2
507 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 12:55 pm

Quoting qdemir:


Odanı temizlemek zorundasın (mecburiyetindesin). (obligation imposed by the speaker)



Not necessarily. The obligation may or may not be imposed by the speaker in your example.

23.       qdemir
802 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 02:11 pm

What would be your explanation then?

Who might be the speaker other than a mother?

24.       aslan2
507 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 02:16 pm

Quoting qdemir:

What would be your explanation then?

Who might be the speaker other than a mother?



Say the speaker is a sister and it is forced by the mother actually. The sister reminds her brother.

25.       qdemir
802 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 02:21 pm

Wouldn't the sister say in that case that "Annem odanı temizlemen gerektiğini / temizlemeni söyledi."

And also is an obligation necessarily imposed by a speaker who is older than the person whom he addresses?

26.       aslan2
507 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 02:33 pm

Quoting qdemir:

Wouldn't the sister say in that case that "Annem odanı temizlemen gerektiğini / temizlemeni söyledi."

And also is an obligation necessarily imposed by a speaker who is older than the person whom he addresses?



She could but that's another way to say it. Do you see anything wrong with my explaination? I didn't say you are wrong. I say it is not like that always.

Second question: again not necessarily. A reminder can be said that way. Don't you think so?

27.       qdemir
802 posts
 15 Sep 2006 Fri 02:42 pm

I dont see sth wrong or the otherwise, just discussing to get the correct use.

28.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:40 pm

Ok then,here is 2 group of obligations

1.zorunda,mecburiyetinde.
And
2.zorunda kal,mecbur.

zorunda,mecburiyetinde,they are same in usage
And zorunda kal,mecbur are same in usage too,right?

What is the difference in usage between the 2 groups ?

one is forced by others,or circumstances,and the other are forced by myself,or what ???


29.       aslan2
507 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:16 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Ok then,here is 2 group of obligations

1.zorunda,mecburiyetinde.
And
2.zorunda kal,mecbur.

zorunda,mecburiyetinde,they are same in usage
And zorunda kal,mecbur are same in usage too,right?

What is the difference in usage between the 2 groups ?

one is forced by others,or circumstances,and the other are forced by myself,or what ???




zorunda and mecbur are the same. They both means "forced by something".

So we have to verbs here.

1- Zorunda (or mecbur) olmak and
2- Zorunda (or mecbur) kalmak

You can use the first one when you are talking about the current state:
Gitmek zorundayım -- I am forced (by something/somebody) to go (I have to go)

You can use the second one when you want to mention a state transition.
Gitmek zorunda kaldım -- I was forced (by something/somebody) to go (something happened and that forced me to go, if it hadn't happened I wouldn't have had to go)

O gelirse gitmek zorunda kalırım -- If she comes, I have to go (If she doesn't, there is nothing to force me to go)

30.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:25 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Ok then,here is 2 group of obligations

1.zorunda,mecburiyetinde.
And
2.zorunda kal,mecbur.

zorunda,mecburiyetinde,they are same in usage
And zorunda kal,mecbur are same in usage too,right?

What is the difference in usage between the 2 groups ?

one is forced by others,or circumstances,and the other are forced by myself,or what ???




I am not a teacher but I can say that there is not much differnce between "mecbur olmak" and "zorunda olmak" practically.

Gitmek zorundayım
Gitmeye mecburum
Gitmem gerek
Gitmem lazım
Gitmek durumundayım
Gitmek mecburiyetindeyim
Gitmeliyim

All are same, I think.
I have to go.

There is a force, always... The force may be in my mind or not. The score is still same: "I have to go", even someone force me or i force myself, or some ideas force me, or i think that i need this. There is a difference? Why do we have to make 2 or more groups on that?

This "groupization" is only in English I think. Not in Turkish. Isn't it?

31.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:30 pm

By the way, zorunda kalmak refers on "become", "the change of the conditionals"

Gitmek zorundaydım: I had to go
Gitmek zorunda kaldım: The conditionals changed, so I had to go/ I became in the obligatory to go

32.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:33 pm

well,it was just written in my book in 2 groups,so i thought there must be some difference between them

Like there is a difference between gerek,lazı,malı and zorunda,mecbur

Thats all

33.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:56 pm

Quoting CANLI:

well,it was just written in my book in 2 groups,so i thought there must be some difference between them

Like there is a difference between gerek,lazı,malı and zorunda,mecbur

Thats all



As I told, I am not a teacher maybe I am wrong as literature. But I think they are all same practically.

34.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 02:05 pm

Thx caliptrix, you are really helpful

35.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 02:12 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Thx caliptrix, you are really helpful


Rica ederim, kolay gelsin

36.       sufee
1 posts
 07 Apr 2012 Sat 03:26 pm

Please, correct me if I am wrong, but I think ´mecbur´ is used mostly as a formal word, and ´zorunda´ is used both as a formal (unified) and colloquial word.

And also, aren´t ´gerek´ and ´lazim´ are used mostly to indicate necessity rather than obligation?

37.       Abla
3642 posts
 07 Apr 2012 Sat 04:39 pm

A nice thread you found from the history, sufee.

 

What do you mean by obligation, what do you mean by necessity? I think necessity is a superordinate term which covers

 

1. a must caused by the actor´s own qualities or circumstances

2. a must caused by an authority

3. certainty.

 

Of course natives will find nuances in the meanings but I think there is a very clever note earlier in this thread:

 

Quote:caliptrix

Gitmek zorundayım
Gitmeye mecburum
Gitmem gerek
Gitmem lazım
Gitmek durumundayım
Gitmek mecburiyetindeyim
Gitmeliyim

All are same, I think.
I have to go.

There is a force, always... The force may be in my mind or not. The score is still same: "I have to go", even someone force me or i force myself, or some ideas force me, or i think that i need this. There is a difference? Why do we have to make 2 or more groups on that?

This "groupization" is only in English I think. Not in Turkish. Isn´t it?

 

I am afraid my division 1-3 doesn´t exist in any language. It exists in modal logics only. Natural languages mix the groups together, for instance I have been taught -meli expresses all three kinds of necessity and it doesn´t cause any kind of confusion.

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